overrated

[oakbloodthesap]

what are some of the most over rated characters of asoiaf?

( in no particular order ) Jon Snow , Tywin Lannister , Tryion Lannister , Ned Stark and Stannis Baratheon, the hound and  littelfinger

reason = Mary sue, over exaggerated strategist, hypocritical drunk, not so honorable, delusional, whiny, relies on luck .

also who do you guys think is the most over rated in asoiaf?

[lavthelonewolf]

i don’t think overrated is the word i would use to describe GRRM’s characters. He has created wonderfully full fledged realistic characters. They are what they are, made up by the environment they have grown in and experience they have had. So no complaints. Thou if i have to call any character less interesting i would have to say Brienne. Her POVs are bland and tedious to read. Well tats just me. 

[Euron III Greyjoy]

I might be a bit biased since ASOIAF is my favourite book series, but I don't think any of the characters are overrated. 

[Guest]

This may get me some flak. in turns of the fandom, not so much the books, I'm going with Oberyn. Any sympathy I may have had for him was gone come AFFC when it was revealed he had signed a pact agreeing to align himself with Viscerys when the time came and promising his niece to that monster when he has an army. I get he likes Targaryeans, but that's a horrible idea. Really didn't care too much when he died because he brought it on himself by taking the Mountain lightly. Don't like his daughters either. The only sand snake I care about is the one trying to become a Maester. All the others are annoying.  Can't feel for anyone who would like to bring war to their nation especially after seeing what became of the Riverlands when war came to them. I see them as just ignorant children who have no idea what they're doing. 2 chapters into Ariannes preview chapters for Winds and I'm already sick of the sand snake she's travelling with.

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 hours ago, oakbloodthesap said:

what are some of the most over rated characters of asoiaf?

( in no particular order ) Jon Snow , Tywin Lannister , Tryion Lannister , Ned Stark and Stannis Baratheon, the hound and  littelfinger

reason = Mary sue, over exaggerated strategist, hypocritical drunk, not so honorable, delusional, whiny, relies on luck .

also who do you guys think is the most over rated in asoiaf?

Stupid hate threads like this are the single most overrated thing in this whole series 

[Starkz]

13 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Stupid hate threads like this are the single most overrated thing in this whole series 

This. Spreading hate isn’t what people should be doing.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

3 hours ago, oakbloodthesap said:

what are some of the most over rated characters of asoiaf?

( in no particular order ) Jon Snow , Tywin Lannister , Tryion Lannister , Ned Stark and Stannis Baratheon, the hound and  littelfinger

reason = Mary sue, over exaggerated strategist, hypocritical drunk, not so honorable, delusional, whiny, relies on luck .

also who do you guys think is the most over rated in asoiaf?

Good job.  Your list is a good start.  Allow me to add a few more.

1. Jon Snow
2. Tywin Lannister - I know, the order of the green hand loves this guy, but he is partly responsible for escalating a family feud between his house and the Starks into an all out war.  Irresponsible in my book.
3. Tyrion Lannister
4. Ned Stark
5. Stannis Baratheon
6. Hound
7. Littlefinger
8. Doran Martell - A stud or a dud.  Is this guy a mastermind or an armchair dreamer?
9. Illyrio Mopatis - I don't think he really had any concrete plans.  He's just putting cards on the table and hoping one of them plays out.
10. The Tattered Prince - Another bit guy trying to become a major player.
11. Hizdahr zo Loraq - More like a prop to me.

[Lord Lannister]

Well this whole thread seems designed to step on people's toes. The "fan favorites" are going to be the most polarizing and produce the widest spectrum of emotions on the thread. For example I don't particularly care for Daenerys that much even if I find her story(at least the first three books of it) interesting. Tyrion's one of my favorites, but I get why people wouldn't like him. Despite the near legendary treatment Ned gets from both the characters and fans, his chapters always read to me as a good man being in over his head.

Opinions are just that, and we all get different things from entertainment mediums. Why we seem to get so many "why don't people like what I like" threads is beyond me.

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Starkz said:

This. Spreading hate isn’t what people should be doing.

It's the fans that think they know the incomplete story better than the author writing it.  

[Lollygag]

I love it when people reduce very complex characters down to a single characteristic and base generalizations off of this artificial and extreme reduction. It says more about the reading comprehension of the poster than anything about the author. I hope they don't do that to people in real life.

Also, a lot of the hate stuff on the forum lately looks like folks who are angry that GRRM didn't write a Dany/Targ-centric story and are mad because of all of the other characters whom they perceive to be in the way of the story they wish they had.

[Nowy Tends]

Define "overrated" in the context of a fiction/fantasy book… what a stupid thread 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Tywin Lannister

Jaime Lannister

Randyll Tarly

Rhaegar Targaryen

Jon Arryn

 

[White Ravens]

9 hours ago, oakbloodthesap said:

what are some of the most over rated characters of asoiaf?

( in no particular order ) Jon Snow , Tywin Lannister , Tryion Lannister , Ned Stark and Stannis Baratheon, the hound and  littelfinger

reason = Mary sue, over exaggerated strategist, hypocritical drunk, not so honorable, delusional, whiny, relies on luck .

also who do you guys think is the most over rated in asoiaf?

Thanks for the list bolded above!  Characters in the books or posters on this forum? 

Edit:  I don't actually have a problem with any (okay, vast majority of) posters on this forum. 

 

[Walda]

Tyrion Lannister.  In battle.

It is hard to tell if GRRM over-rates him, or if it is just that he over-rates himself (our most detailed accounts of his battles come uncorroborated from his point of view). I suspect it is a bit of both.

It starts in his fourth chapter, where he finds himself armed with an unfamiliar weapon, against an ambush force of superior numbers. We know from at least Tyrion III AGoT, when he attacked Ser Aliser with a crab-fork, that Tyrion is fearless beyond wisdom (later, when Jaime and Cersei get their own points of view, we realise this is a family trait - although Tywin doesn't share it) - so it begins plausibly enough, although its a bit nauseating the way his valour is set off against Marillion's cowardice, which is at least partly explained by Marillion having and being offered no weapon at all.

Quote

Tyrion swung his axe with both hands. The blade caught the charging horse in the throat with a meaty thunk, angling upward, and Tyrion almost lost his grip as the animal screamed and collapsed. He managed to wrench the axe free and lurch clumsily out of the way. Marillion was less fortunate...Tyrion danced back in while the brigand’s leg was still pinned beneath his fallen mount, and buried the axe in the man’s neck, just above the shoulder blades...Tyrion kept on the fringes of the fight, sliding from rock to rock and darting out of the shadows to hew at the legs of passing horses. He found a wounded clansman and left him dead, helping himself to the man’s halfhelm

(AGoT, Ch.31 Tyrion IV)

He might be small, but he is armed, he is bold, he is lucky. He was also, we supposed, trained in arms at Casterly Rock, and at least sometimes by no less a man of arms than Jaime Lannister.

But then

Quote

he heard a woman’s scream.
Catelyn Stark was trapped against the stone face of the mountain with three men around her, one still mounted and the other two on foot. She had a dagger clutched awkwardly in her maimed hands, but her back was to the rock now and they had penned her on three sides. Let them have the bitch, Tyrion thought, and welcome to her, yet somehow he was moving. He caught the first man in the back of the knee before they even knew he was there, and the heavy axehead split flesh and bone like rotten wood. Logs that bleed, Tyrion thought inanely as the second man came for him. Tyrion ducked under his sword, lashed out with the axe, the man reeled backward … and Catelyn Stark stepped up behind him and opened his throat. The horseman remembered an urgent engagement elsewhere and galloped off suddenly.

(AGoT, Ch.31 Tyrion IV)

Catelyn screams...hmm. Catelyn is not an obvious damsel in distress, and that ducking under the sword move is something more than lucky.  When the battle ends, he has four confirmed kills. Apparently, as many as the battle-hardened knights and sell-swords - or less, if the man Chiggen slashed across the face was Tyrion's second kill.

Tyrion notices the scythe both before and after the fight- before as a powerful weapon, and after as a farm implement desperately fashioned into a weapon. He walks away from this one with cramped legs.

On the Green Fork, he gets a minor command in a proper battle.

Quote

A man-at-arms thrust at his chest and his axe lashed out, knocking the spear aside. The man danced back for another try, but Tyrion spurred his horse and rode right over him...A thrown spear came hurtling at Tyrion from the left and lodged in his shield with a woody chunk. He wheeled and raced after the thrower, but the man raised his own shield over his head. Tyrion circled around him, raining axe blows down on the wood. Chips of oak went flying, until the northerner lost his feet and slipped, falling flat on his back with his shield on top of him. He was below the reach of Tyrion’s axe and it was too much bother to dismount, so he left him there and rode after another man, taking him from behind with a sweeping downcut that sent a jolt of impact up his arm...A Burned Man rode past, slumped against his horse. A spear had entered his belly and come out through his back. He was past any help, but when Tyrion saw one of the northerners run up and make a grab for his reins, he charged.
His quarry met him sword in hand. He was tall and spare, wearing a long chainmail hauberk and gauntlets of lobstered steel, but he’d lost his helm and blood ran down into his eyes from a gash across his forehead. Tyrion aimed a swipe at his face, but the tall man slammed it aside. “Dwarf,” he screamed. “Die.” He turned in a circle as Tyrion rode around him, hacking at his head and shoulders. Steel rang on steel, and Tyrion soon realized that the tall man was quicker and stronger than he was. Where in the seven hells was Bronn? “Die,” the man grunted, chopping at him savagely. Tyrion barely got his shield up in time, and the wood seemed to explode inward under the force of the blow. The shattered pieces fell away from his arm. “Die!” the swordsman bellowed, shoving in close and whanging Tyrion across the temple so hard his head rang. The blade made a hideous scraping sound as he drew it back over the steel. The tall man grinned … until Tyrion’s destrier bit, quick as a snake, laying his cheek bare to the bone. Then he screamed. Tyrion buried his axe in his head. “You die,” he told him, and he did.
As he wrenched the blade free, he heard a shout. “Eddard!” a voice rang out. “For Eddard and Winterfell!” The knight came thundering down on him, swinging the spiked ball of a morningstar around his head. Their warhorses slammed together before Tyrion could so much as open his mouth to shout for Bronn. His right elbow exploded with pain as the spikes punched through the thin metal around the joint. His axe was gone, as fast as that. He clawed for his sword, but the morningstar was circling again, coming at his face. A sickening crunch, and he was falling. He did not recall hitting the ground, but when he looked up there was only sky above him. He rolled onto his side and tried to find his feet, but pain shuddered through him and the world throbbed. The knight who had felled him drew up above him. “Tyrion the Imp,” he boomed down. “You are mine. Do you yield, Lannister?”
Yes, Tyrion thought, but the word caught in his throat. He made a croaking sound and fought his way to his knees, fumbling for a weapon. His sword, his dirk, anything …
“Do you yield?” The knight loomed overhead on his armored warhorse. Man and horse both seemed immense. The spiked ball swung in a lazy circle. Tyrion’s hands were numb, his vision blurred, his scabbard empty. “Yield or die,” the knight declared, his flail whirling faster and faster.
Tyrion lurched to his feet, driving his head into the horse’s belly. The animal gave a hideous scream and reared. It tried to twist away from the agony, a shower of blood and viscera poured down over Tyrion’s face, and the horse fell like an avalanche. The next he knew, his visor was packed with mud and something was crushing his foot. He wriggled free, his throat so tight he could scarce talk. “… yield …” he managed to croak faintly.
“Yes,” a voice moaned, thick with pain.
Tyrion scraped the mud off his helm so he could see again. The horse had fallen away from him, onto its rider. The knight’s leg was trapped, the arm he’d used to break his fall twisted at a grotesque angle. “Yield,” he repeated. Fumbling at his belt with his good hand, he drew a sword and flung it at Tyrion’s feet. “I yield, my lord.”
... “I believe you are losing, ser,” he told the knight under the horse. The man made no reply.

(AGoT,Ch.62 Tyrion VIII)

Again, Tyrion kills four (possibly five - if the northern horseman that fell off his horse, died of the fall). Again, there is some luck (the helmet spike), but also, Tyrion beats one mano-a-mano - the tall man 'that Tyrion soon realised was quicker and stronger than he was'  (he is a sharp one, that Tyrion), the one that chopped at him repeatedly, and dinged him over the head, and still failed to unhorse him or kill him. At the end of the battle, he has a smashed elbow and a dead horse. 

Then he leads the sorty to the Mud Gate at King's Landing.

Quote

 Ahead of Tyrion was a knight whose surcoat showed a fox peering through a ring of flowers. Florent was his first thought, but helmless ran a close second. He smashed the man in the face with all the weight of axe and arm and charging horse, taking off half his head. The shock of impact numbed his shoulder...Tyrion rode down an archer, opened a spearman from shoulder to armpit, glanced a blow off a swordfish-crested helm...Men were crawling from the river, men burned and bleeding, coughing up water, staggering, most dying. He led his troop among them, delivering quicker cleaner deaths to those strong enough to stand. The war shrank to the size of his eye slit. Knights twice his size fled from him, or stood and died. They seemed little things, and fearful. “Lannister!” he shouted, slaying. His arm was red to the elbow, glistening in the light off the river...let them kill me if they can!
They tried. Another spearman ran at him. Tyrion lopped off the head of his spear, then his hand, then his arm, trotting around him in a circle. An archer, bowless, thrust at him with an arrow, holding it as if it were a knife. The destrier kicked at the man’s thigh to send him sprawling, and Tyrion barked laughter. He rode past a banner planted in the mud, one of Stannis’s fiery hearts, and chopped the staff in two with a swing of his axe...A man-at-arms grabbed the bridle of his horse and thrust at Tyrion’s face with a dagger. He knocked the blade aside and buried the axe in the nape of the man’s neck...Tyrion’s axe went spinning, followed by Tyrion himself, and the deck rose up to give him a wet smack.
Madness followed. His horse had broken a leg and was screaming horribly. Somehow he managed to draw his dagger, and slit the poor creature’s throat. The blood gushed out in a scarlet fountain, drenching his arms and chest. He found his feet again and lurched to the rail, and then he was fighting, staggering and splashing across crooked decks awash with water. Men came at him. Some he killed, some he wounded, and some went away, but always there were more. He lost his knife and gained a broken spear, he could not have said how...He stabbed one man in the kidney when his back was turned, and grabbed another by the leg and upended him into the river. Arrows hissed past his head and clattered off his armor; one lodged between shoulder and breastplate, but he never felt it...did he see the sword after all? He would never know. The point slashed just beneath his eyes, and he felt its cold hard touch and then a blaze of pain.

At least 8 kills, probably more than 12. Particularly implausible, the man-at-arms with the dagger. Almost as unlikely as Tyrion's leap onto the bridge of ships, or the man he upended into the river, while armed with a broken spear. And his injury tally - a numbed shoulder, an arrow in (apparently) the same. 

His horse he killed himself (was there some blood-magic in the process that gave him superhuman strength, or protected his life? Does he have to do battle every time his mount is killed?) Ser Mandon was on his side (his bodyguard, no less).

It could be that Tyrion imagines his role in the war to be much more valorous and essential than it actually is. Tywin corrected him after the battle, when Tyrion claims he saved King's Landing

Quote

“I saved your bloody city, it seems to me.”
“Most people seem to feel that it was my attack on Lord Stannis’s flank that turned the tide of battle. Lords Tyrell, Rowan, Redwyne, and Tarly fought nobly as well, and I’m told it was your sister Cersei who set the pyromancers to making the wildfire that destroyed the Baratheon fleet.”
“While all I did was get my nosehairs trimmed, is that it?” Tyrion could not keep the bitterness out of his voice.
“Your chain was a clever stroke, and crucial to our victory. Is that what you wanted to hear? I am told we have you to thank for our Dornish alliance as well.

(ASoS, Ch.04 Tyrion I)

Tywin is practically the only person other than Tyrion himself to note his performance in battle. In both the Green Fork and King's Landing, he calmly acknowledges Tyrion did his duty in a way that exceeded expectation - but Tyrion seems to require something more rapturous than that. 

Tyrion assisted Cersei with the fortifications of King's Landing, and the wildfire was her idea - although his canny deployment of it was key to it's success. Tyrion's sorty prevented Stannis' forces setting foot inside the city, but it was the attack of the Tyrell vanguard, which he saw signs of even while the battle raged on the tourney ground, that made sure Stannis' men could not overrun the city, even if a few had managed to ram through the gate.

Tyrion is especially grudging to Mace Tyrell - denying him his decisive victory as Lord Tywin's vanguard, and granting Mace just one  'indecisive victory', eighteen years ago,  and even attributing that win to his vanguard, Tarly. Perhaps because to do otherwise would be to cede his claim as the hero of King's Landing to Mace and his sons, and King Renly. 

Mace for his part is handsome about Tyrion's chain. Ser Garlan (aka 'King Renly') credits him not just for the chain but the wildfire, and also for his command of the Wildlings, and their assiduous slaying of all Stannis' scouts, as crucial to Lord Tywin's victory. Tywin does this too, but Garlan's praise, delivered on a public dais, in front of their wives, unasked, was quite as rapturous as Tyrion would like. I notice how little inclined Tyrion is to take the credit of his wildling vanguard. He is resentful on Chella's behalf when his father's men run her off and the King's Landers pelt her and the black-ears with dung, but that is as far as it goes. Lancel also seems to recognise Tyrion's ability, although he didn't see him in the field.

Although, it is no secret that Tyrion was in the field. Even Sansa knows of the terrible wound that Tyrion has taken to the face, and his being found on the battleground, but nobody gives him credit for valor at arms. One could almost suppose they thought him a fool for leading out a needless sorty, when simply keeping the dog at the gate would have been enough to dispel the men on the tourney ground. (Although, neither Tyrion nor anyone in King's Landing knew that at the time.)

If Tyrion was really so able in battle, one would think someone might have noticed? As the imp, he is the kind of person people do notice. As battle is an activity that brings rewards based on the number of kills, knights tend to take care to count them, and take note of who killed whom. Surely Ser Balon, Ser Gregor, Ser Aeyns, Ser Aron, Bronn  - someone would have noticed Tyrion's spectacular efforts, apart from his squire?

From the look of it, this is all building up to Tyrion doing a frankly impossible amount of carnage in the Battle of Meereen.

Not to mention, Tyrion has killed a lot more people than, say,  Arya or Cersei, with far less cause or conscience. We haven't seen Jaime in battle, but what we know of him suggests he had, in his many acts of fealty and betrayal, killed more and assassinated more, with less damage to his person than his younger brother. On the other hand, Jaime has the height, the strength, he was a squire, fought some of the toughest outlaws while a squire, then a knight, then a knight of the Kingsguard. He lead hosts into battle, he won tourneys, he was a career fighter, not a three-foot amateur with minimal training in arms, who needs a special saddle just to stay on his horse.  

[Foot_Of_The_King]

Do you mean overrated in or out of universe?

[Walda]

17 minutes ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Do you mean overrated in or out of universe?

From the examples @oakbloodthesap gave, I would suppose out of universe, but that is no fun

[oakbloodthesap]

19 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I love it when people reduce very complex characters down to a single characteristic and base generalizations off of this artificial and extreme reduction. It says more about the reading comprehension of the poster than anything about the author. I hope they don't do that to people in real life.

Also, a lot of the hate stuff on the forum lately looks like folks who are angry that GRRM didn't write a Dany/Targ-centric story and are mad because of all of the other characters whom they perceive to be in the way of the story they wish they had.

all characters can be reduce down to a single characteristic. the books does this itself "Ned is honorable", the only difference is it "strokes dead Ned dick" and the other is characterized as a "hate" thread  ( to say otherwise )

12 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Do you mean overrated in or out of universe?

sorry not quite following. the series as a whole forms a in universe character that apon review is shown to be overrated (opinions can differ). what is a out of universe character?

[Cas Stark]

20 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I love it when people reduce very complex characters down to a single characteristic and base generalizations off of this artificial and extreme reduction. It says more about the reading comprehension of the poster than anything about the author. I hope they don't do that to people in real life.

Also, a lot of the hate stuff on the forum lately looks like folks who are angry that GRRM didn't write a Dany/Targ-centric story and are mad because of all of the other characters whom they perceive to be in the way of the story they wish they had.

All current signs point to this is exactly the story he wrote, and I say this as no fan of Dany.

[Lollygag]

19 minutes ago, oakbloodthesap said:

all characters can be reduce down to a single characteristic. the books does this itself "Ned is honorable", the only difference is it "strokes dead Ned dick" and the other is characterized as a "hate" thread  ( to say otherwise ) 

 

Sure you can. But it’s almost never an accurate representation of a character in this series unless you’re talking the likes of Ramsay or secondary characters. And you’ve missed the point on the honor message. Ned had to be dishonorable toward Robert or dishonorable towards his daughters and family. It was a no win situation. Honorable in one sense all too often necessarily means dishonor in another sense. You’re oversimplifying all of the meaning out of it. Take a look at the big picture, eh? This sort of oversimplification comes across to those on the forum as one just determined to not like a character for whatever reason and they’ll pick on any characteristic to justify that dislike and misrepresent it to that end. Or as a poor reader.

ACOK Catelyn VII

Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. "So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other." He took a healthy swallow of wine and closed his eyes for an instant, leaning his head back against the patch of nitre on the wall. "I was the youngest man ever to wear the white cloak."

ADWD The Queensguard

Barristan Selmy had known many kings. He had been born during the troubled reign of Aegon the Unlikely, beloved by the common folk, had received his knighthood at his hands. Aegon's son Jaehaerys had bestowed the white cloak on him when he was three-and-twenty, after he slew Maelys the Monstrous during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys's son Aerys. Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing.

But no. That was not fair. He did his duty. Some nights, Ser Barristan wondered if he had not done that duty too well. He had sworn his vows before the eyes of gods and men, he could not in honor go against them … but the keeping of those vows had grown hard in the last years of King Aerys's reign. He had seen things that it pained him to recall, and more than once he wondered how much of the blood was on his own hands. If he had not gone into Duskendale to rescue Aerys from Lord Darklyn's dungeons, the king might well have died there as Tywin Lannister sacked the town. Then Prince Rhaegar would have ascended the Iron Throne, mayhaps to heal the realm. Duskendale had been his finest hour, yet the memory tasted bitter on his tongue.

 

[Starkz]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

All current signs point to this is exactly the story he wrote, and I say this as no fan of Dany.

GRRM is definitely going for some sort of Targaryen Restoration unfortunately, probably Aegon and Dany together.