norwaywolf123 Posted November 4, 2018 Share Posted November 4, 2018 Is it possible that Viserys Plumm was the biological son of Ossifer Plumm as opposed to Aegon the Unworthy? is there any physical description of Viserys Plumm? Based on the joke of the supposed 6 foot penis of Ossifer, and the rumor of the real father being Aegon. This combined with the fact that many though that Viserys Plumm's ancestry was dubious, seems to me to hint at Viserys Plumm looking Valyrian. Could Viserys Plumm look Valyrian with little or no features Ossifer be possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 4, 2018 Share Posted November 4, 2018 As of yet, we have no description of Viserys Plumm. But the name - likely named after Viserys II - does suggest the man looked like a Targaryen. And that's not impossible at all. Most/all of Alicent's children had Valyrian features, despite the fact that she didn't have Targaryen ancestors. The fact that a version of the story claims Lord Ossifer actually died before he could consummate his marriage makes it reasonably unlikely that Ossifer is the father of Lord Viserys. And the way Aegon IV set things up might even imply that doing Ossifer's job - the consummation of the marriage - for him was part of the justification for taking possession of the vast wealth of House Plumm. But we cannot rule out the possibility that Ossifer was actually the biological father of his son. Brown Ben's pretty strong affinity to dragons would make more sense, though, if his ancestor on the Plumm side had been a pure-blooded Targaryen bastard rather than just Elaena's son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wondering Wolf Posted November 4, 2018 Share Posted November 4, 2018 Ossifer died during the wedding night. So no matter what Viserys looked like, he seems to have been born a significant amount of time later than nine months after the wedding. So people were able to figure out that Elaena did not get pregnant in said night. If they were just not sure if she was impregnated in her wedding night or the night after, the saying of Ossifer's long cock would not make too much sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 4, 2018 Share Posted November 4, 2018 10 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said: Ossifer died during the wedding night. So no matter what Viserys looked like, he seems to have been born a significant amount of time later than nine months after the wedding. So people were able to figure out that Elaena did not get pregnant in said night. If they were just not sure if she was impregnated in her wedding night or the night after, the saying of Ossifer's long cock would not make too much sense. That is true - but then it would also be pretty open whether Aegon IV is the father of Lord Viserys or not - unless Aegon IV and Elaena hung out long enough after the wedding for her to become pregnant by him. But who knows? Perhaps Aegon IV just collected all movable wealth of the Plumms and then took Elaena back to KL where young Viserys was later raised as a royal ward until he was old enough to take possession of his castle and lordship? Elaena was either at court or came there when Daeron II took the throne, commanded her to marry Ronnel Penrose, and effectively made her his Mistress of Coin. One also assumes that Daeron II wouldn't have given that job to Elaena had he not been able to trust her - which, come to think of it, might mean she actually did serve as the Lady Plumm and rebuild the fortune of her late husband which, in turn, qualified her for the office of Master of Coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaywolf123 Posted November 5, 2018 Author Share Posted November 5, 2018 23 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said: Ossifer died during the wedding night. So no matter what Viserys looked like, he seems to have been born a significant amount of time later than nine months after the wedding. So people were able to figure out that Elaena did not get pregnant in said night. If they were just not sure if she was impregnated in her wedding night or the night after, the saying of Ossifer's long cock would not make too much sense. Is there a quote that said this? I can't remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaywolf123 Posted November 5, 2018 Author Share Posted November 5, 2018 22 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Elaena was either at court or came there when Daeron II took the throne, commanded her to marry Ronnel Penrose, and effectively made her his Mistress of Coin. One also assumes that Daeron II wouldn't have given that job to Elaena had he not been able to trust her - which, come to think of it, might mean she actually did serve as the Lady Plumm and rebuild the fortune of her late husband which, in turn, qualified her for the office of Master of Coin. If Viserys Plumm was not Ossifers son would that make Elaena more untrustworthy? Maybe it would give Daeron II, Aegon IV or someone else with the knowledge and position to challenge her something to use against her? What happened to the other Plumms? Did they stand up for themselfes if they though Viserys was a bastard? Were the Plums squashed into juice perhaps? Bolded makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wondering Wolf Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 31 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said: Is there a quote that said this? I can't remember. I think it is the only way to make sense of Ossifer's six feet cock (six feet under). And then there is this quote by Cersei when she speaks with Jaime about the possibility that Margaery could get pregnant. Jaime says Tommen is too young and Cersei replies: "And Ossifer Plumm was much too dead, but that did not stop him fathering a child, did it?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 2 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: If Viserys Plumm was not Ossifers son would that make Elaena more untrustworthy? Maybe it would give Daeron II, Aegon IV or someone else with the knowledge and position to challenge her something to use against her? Considering Aegon IV would be the father then that's not very likely. Elaena likely didn't want to marry Ossifer, nor did she want to be impregnated by Aegon. 2 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: What happened to the other Plumms? Did they stand up for themselfes if they though Viserys was a bastard? Were the Plums squashed into juice perhaps? There is no indication that there were other Plumms at that time - but even if there were. If the king marries his cousin to your lord and then impregnates her in place of the dead lord then you nod, smile, and do him homage. The Plumms got a very, well, important plum in Elaena and they should be happy with that. And since Aegon IV apparently took all the wealth of House Plumm for himself it is also not very likely that (m)any hypothetical distant Plumm cousins wanted to take the lordship after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 In The Mystery Knight novel there was a knight named Maynard Plumm (actually Bloodraven in shadow glamour). Quote "I am Ser Kyle, the Cat of Misty Moor. Under yonder chestnut sits Ser Glendon, ah, Ball. And here you have the good Ser Maynard Plumm." Egg's ears pricked up at that name. "Plumm… are you kin to Lord Viserys Plumm, ser?" "Distantly," confessed Ser Maynard, a tall, thin, stoop-shouldered man with long straight flaxen hair, "though I doubt that His Lordship would admit to it. One might say that he is of the sweet Plumms, whilst I am of the sour." Bloodraven's glamour looked like should look a typical Plumm. So we know, that at least Plumms had lightly-colored hair, same as Targaryens. That's why, even though the child was born later, than 40 weeks after death of his official father, still, based on his looks, no one could have said, that he is definitely not a Plumm, because Plumms also had blond hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaywolf123 Posted November 7, 2018 Author Share Posted November 7, 2018 44 minutes ago, Megorova said: In The Mystery Knight novel there was a knight named Maynard Plumm (actually Bloodraven in shadow glamour). Bloodraven's glamour looked like should look a typical Plumm. So we know, that at least Plumms had lightly-colored hair, same as Targaryens. That's why, even though the child was born later, than 40 weeks after death of his official father, still, based on his looks, no one could have said, that he is definitely not a Plumm, because Plumms also had blond hair. Viserys Plumm was born around 175 or 176 after Aegon's conquest, while Maynard(Bloodraven using glamour) partook in Butterwell tourney of 211 AC. Therefore some Valyrian looks or light hair coloring could be due to Targaryen ancestry, allthough Ossifer could be Viserys genetic father. What i am trying so say that perhaps the typical Plumm of 211 AC was considered to look Valyrian. Perhaps even if Viserys was Aegon's son, House Plumm would be associated with Valyrian looks? Viserys Plumm would also have to marry to produce heirs sometime. Allthough it is not mentioned whether Viserys Plumm ever had children. The affinity of Daenerys dragons toward Brown Ben Plumm does seem to indicate that Ben Plumm might be correct in that he has one drop of dragon blood(Eleana) and perhaps two(Aegon the Unworthy)? The only Plumm that is mentioned in the timespan between Viserys and Maynard Plumm is Petyr Plumm. I am not sure if there is a description of how Petyr Plumm looked or if he was a descendant of Viserys Plumm. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Plumm https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Petyr_Plumm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaywolf123 Posted November 7, 2018 Author Share Posted November 7, 2018 On 11/6/2018 at 12:44 AM, Lord Varys said: Considering Aegon IV would be the father then that's not very likely. Elaena likely didn't want to marry Ossifer, nor did she want to be impregnated by Aegon. At the time of Viserys Plumm's birth Eleana's brother Daeron 2 Targaryen ruled. Allthough Aegon 4's membership in House Targaryen would count in his favor. Could Aegon 4 get away with raping Eleana if Daeron 2 was king and Viserys 2 was hand of the king? Is there other possibilities for Eleana being impregnated by Aegon? On 11/6/2018 at 12:44 AM, Lord Varys said: There is no indication that there were other Plumms at that time - but even if there were. If the king marries his cousin to your lord and then impregnates her in place of the dead lord then you nod, smile, and do him homage. If Viserys Plumm was not Ossifer's son even if there were no other Plumms, then there would still be people with Plumm ancestry who would be the rightfull heirs. They likely prefer to get the Plumm lordship if possible. Still, you are right that the safest option is just to accept the situtation even if Viserys Plumm was not the son of Ossifer. On 11/6/2018 at 12:44 AM, Lord Varys said: The Plumms got a very, well, important plum in Elaena and they should be happy with that. If Viserys Plumm was not Ossifer's son then House Plumm just got supplanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 22 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said: The only Plumm that is mentioned in the timespan between Viserys and Maynard Plumm is Petyr Plumm. I am not sure if there is a description of how Petyr Plumm looked or if he was a descendant of Viserys Plumm. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Plumm https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Petyr_Plumm I get what you mean, though Plumms are from Westerlands, and that Kingdom has the most amount of Andal blood. Quote The Andals began to invade the westerlands after they conquered the Vale and the riverlands. Tybolt Lannister, the King of the Rock, defeated the first Andal warlord, and the next few attacks were also successfully defended by House Lannister.[20] As the Andals continued to march west, however, Kings Tyrion III and Gerold II arranged marriages between their bannermen and the most powerful of the warlords. The children of the Andals were brought to Casterly Rock to serve as wards but also hostages. After the death of King Gerold III, his daughter's husband, the Andal Ser Joffrey Lydden, took the Lannister name. Other houses formed by the intermarriages included Houses Brax, Drox, Jast, Kyndall, Lefford, Marbrand, Parren, Sarsfield, and Serrett. In contrast to most First Men kings, the support of the Andals allowed the Kings of the Rock to expand their power.[20] Andals were blond. AGOT, Bran VII: "The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests." In Westerlands local First Men intermarried with Andals, so majority of Westerlanders are, probably, blond, or at least number of blond people in this Kingdom is higher than in any of other 6. Thus, it's highly likely, that all Plumms, are the same as Lannisters - blonds. So Viserys, whoevers child he actually was, didn't looked like not a Plumm. It seems, that Cersei was fairly sure, that the child was not Ossifer's, and her opinion was based on opinion of general public in Westerlands. If majority thought, that the baby was a bastard, then, probably, they were right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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