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Bakker LVI: the Rectum of Creation


lokisnow

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8 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Again, I don't think that follows. The Dunsult actively state that they can't be seen in this place. Not can't be seen - but specifically in this place. That gives your theory of Ark being invisible more credit, but gives the Dunsult/Shae being invisible less. 

Furthermore, it doesn't make sense if the Dunsult or Shae or the Inchoroi are invisible or outside God's knowledge because we know they can be tracked - and we know this because of the Inverse Fire. There is a clear link between their souls and the Outside. They aren't hidden because they came from somewhere else; they're hidden because they're happening to reside in Ark.

Right, I mean, I admit, I was likely wrong about them all being invisible, but there are ways to simply just hide, which is what they are doing.  It's actually not clear at all if the soulless things of Tekne can be "perceived" or not though, unfortunately.  We just don't actually know what the gods know or don't about things like Sranc.  I don't think the gods care at all about things that don't have souls, because those things aren't what they eat.  So, maybe they just lump them into the broad category of "things that aren't food."

16 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It's also not clear what makes the Gods active in the world. The only examples we have of gods interceding is either as showing favor based on manifestations of that gods persona, or specifically to counter another god's actions. Remember, Kellhus isn't being opposed because he's a dude and he's being all protestant - he's being opposed because Ajokli is trying to steal the granary. The gods aren't trying to stop Kellhus' Great Ordeal or his plans - they're trying to specifically stop him.

Good point.  We don't actually know what the gods position would be on Kellhus sans Ajokli, because it isn't clear if Kellhus would be different than Moe the Elder in respect to grand plans.  Which is to say, no real different than the Consult.

19 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Again, I think you're conflating Ark and Inchoroi and Progenitors with the No-God's effects. I agree with the memory thing here - and furthermore, I think that the reason they lose their memory is because they effectively are beyond the script at that point and no longer have access to it, cut off the same way souls are cut off from the Outside when the No-God is active. Their memory is probably some collation of all the souls which have ever existed or will exist, a sum total of the experiences of the souled, and when the No-God is active that is completely annihilated, leaving them with basically nothing but their hungers and the dim desire of something they don't understand.

It is plausible I am wrong about the soulless Tekne creations though, but the Ark is almost certainly outside the god's view and certainly the No-God is.  I am thinking that possibly the whole reason why the No-God even works is because, like the soul is a ledger, so is "time" on Earwa.  It has dimension.  So the god's can "see" it all, because they can look back and forth along the "line."  But the No-God, as a sort of singularity, collapses this dimensionality.  So, under the No-God there is no past, in any discernible, ledger-like way, there is only the present, devoid of any connection with what was done, or will be done.  In this way, it doesn't matter what you do, or did, because in the next moment, it's all new and nothing bears any connection with what was before.  You are, in a way, born new, every moment upon every moment.  This is the union of Subject and Object.  Subjectively you are nothing but an Object, bereft of greater consequence.  Maybe this is why souled things can't be born, because soul, as the signifier of "that which animates," cannot be, so you are born without the "animator," that is, just an object.

Of course, then we are left to ask how is it that soulless things can be born at all.  The answer is, I guess, that since that is their nature, it does no harm for them, as they are naturally already in that state of already being just Object.

34 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yeah, that one quote does make it sound like Ark is invisible entirely, though it still doesn't say anything about Ark's creations or other things. Another case in point is how would skin-spies be invisible if they can be souled as well? I just don't think that makes sense. 

Well, Bakker does point out, extra-textually that sometimes, unsouled things just gain a soul, for reasons unknown.  I don't think that proves much, as it might be just as likely that a dog could gain a soul as a skin-spy.  If the nature of a skin-spy was such to extra-readily accept a soul, there'd likely have been many, many more skin-spy sorcerers.  Perhaps, sometimes, the Outside just done gone goofed.

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1 minute ago, .H. said:

It is plausible I am wrong about the soulless Tekne creations though, but the Ark is almost certainly outside the god's view and certainly the No-God is.  I am thinking that possibly the whole reason why the No-God even works is because, like the soul is a ledger, so is "time" on Earwa.  It has dimension.  So the god's can "see" it all, because they can look back and forth along the "line."  But the No-God, as a sort of singularity, collapses this dimensionality.  So, under the No-God there is no past, in any discernible, ledger-like way, there is only the present, devoid of any connection with what was done, or will be done.  In this way, it doesn't matter what you do, or did, because in the next moment, it's all new and nothing bears any connection with what was before.  You are, in a way, born new, every moment upon every moment.  This is the union of Subject and Object.  Subjectively you are nothing but an Object, bereft of greater consequence.  Maybe this is why souled things can't be born, because soul, as the signifier of "that which animates," cannot be, so you are born without the "animator," that is, just an object.

Interesting thoughts. I had always thought of it in programming views - that the No-God is a man-in-the-middle attack which intercepts all soul traffic. The gods don't see the world directly, they experience it through souls, except that has now been replaced with, basically, null data. So all their requests return nothing. The souls themselves either go from Earwa to the No-God and then do not travel any further, or the souls go from the Outside (or wherever new souls spawn) into the No-God and do not end up with the babies.

So yeah, the soul is the ledger of your actions, and the gods have access to that ledger when they can experience your soul - but when all the souls are disconnected, they get nothing. 

And yes, the No-God is outside of  the Gods view, and that's canonical and repeated several times. No dispute there. The question really I have is how is Ark outside of the view. Is it simply that Ark is anarcane effectively? From the Dunsult quote above, it's clear the gods could see the Dunsult, they'd just have no idea where they were and no idea how to interact with them - but it's odd that Ark is special but also different from the No-God. 

1 minute ago, .H. said:

Of course, then we are left to ask how is it that soulless things can be born at all.  The answer is, I guess, that since that is their nature, it does no harm for them, as they are naturally already in that state of already being just Object. 

My suspicion is that this would normally be one of those "Just RELAX" questions, but yeah - either there's something specific about nonsouled creatures which is fine, there's something about humans and nonmen which require souls to exist, or perhaps it's an independent value - IE, the No-God stops souls from traveling to the Outside, AND it also stops things with souls from being born (like the womb-plague did). 

1 minute ago, .H. said:

Well, Bakker does point out, extra-textually that sometimes, unsouled things just gain a soul, for reasons unknown.  I don't think that proves much, as it might be just as likely that a dog could gain a soul as a skin-spy.  If the nature of a skin-spy was such to extra-readily accept a soul, there'd likely have been many, many more skin-spy sorcerers.  Perhaps, sometimes, the Outside just done gone goofed.

I AM ALL ABOUT FIDO THE SORCEROUS DOG

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7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Interesting thoughts. I had always thought of it in programming views - that the No-God is a man-in-the-middle attack which intercepts all soul traffic. The gods don't see the world directly, they experience it through souls, except that has now been replaced with, basically, null data. So all their requests return nothing. The souls themselves either go from Earwa to the No-God and then do not travel any further, or the souls go from the Outside (or wherever new souls spawn) into the No-God and do not end up with the babies.

So yeah, the soul is the ledger of your actions, and the gods have access to that ledger when they can experience your soul - but when all the souls are disconnected, they get nothing. 

I'm sure there is something of both elements actually.  I don't think the No-God has one unified nature.  Which is something I think Bakker actually tangentially alludes to in saying "The big thing to remember is that the big reason we can't make scientific sense of meaning is that it seems intrinsically contradictory: this has led a number of philosophers, like Zizek, for instance, to posit contradiction as a fundamental property of the universe. Add to this paradoxes pertaining to the relation of things like the eternal and the temporal, and things get weedy indeed. The bottom line is that there's no way to square any number of circles pertaining to a universe where meaning/soul/God/etc. are objectively real. Getting people thinking through these paradoxes is the best I can hope for!"

So, where the No-God does resemble a MITM attack vector, it also resembles whatever nonsense it is I cobbled together thre.  And since the No-God is almost certainly paradoxical in nature, it is fairly likely that it is both at the same time.

15 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

And yes, the No-God is outside of  the Gods view, and that's canonical and repeated several times. No dispute there. The question really I have is how is Ark outside of the view. Is it simply that Ark is anarcane effectively? From the Dunsult quote above, it's clear the gods could see the Dunsult, they'd just have no idea where they were and no idea how to interact with them - but it's odd that Ark is special but also different from the No-God. 

Well, if the No-God is invisible, and the Sarcophagus is a "prosthesis" of Ark, then that fact that the Sarcophagus is a part of the No-God means that the Ark is too?

Or, since that is really nonsense, perhaps it is that Soggomant, whatever it actually is, so absurdly anarcane it is even a meaning-sink?  I mean, who the hell even knows what Soggomant even is, or is supposed to be.

19 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

My suspicion is that this would normally be one of those "Just RELAX" questions, but yeah - either there's something specific about nonsouled creatures which is fine, there's something about humans and nonmen which require souls to exist, or perhaps it's an independent value - IE, the No-God stops souls from traveling to the Outside, AND it also stops things with souls from being born (like the womb-plague did). 

Right, since the soul is part of their fundamental nature, it's absence is detrimental to their existence.

20 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I AM ALL ABOUT FIDO THE SORCEROUS DOG

Summoning @Happy Ent to write us some good ol' fan-fic.

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1 minute ago, .H. said:

Well, if the No-God is invisible, and the Sarcophagus is a "prosthesis" of Ark, then that fact that the Sarcophagus is a part of the No-God means that the Ark is too?

Maybe? That sort of makes sense. Every part that is the No-God is beyond the time of the gods perception. It isn't that Ark itself is invisible, any more than it is the case that Kelmomas itself is invisible because of something about Kelmomas - it's that Ark is invisible because it is one of the things that makes the No-God function. The rest of the Consult does not, but those things do. So laser weapons, nukes, all that bullshit is totally visible (though largely the gods don't care about it, because it isn't food), but Ark isn't perceivable because it functions as part of the No-God. Same with the sarcophagus, presumably, which makes Cnaiur just randomly shouting at things angrily. 

1 minute ago, .H. said:

Or, since that is really nonsense, perhaps it is that Soggomant, whatever it actually is, so absurdly anarcane it is even a meaning-sink?  I mean, who the hell even knows what Soggomant even is, or is supposed to be. 

I think it's just a shiny chthonic metal that's supposed to be awesome because it's space metal or something. 

1 minute ago, .H. said:

Right, since the soul is part of their fundamental nature, it's absence is detrimental to their existence.

Again, maybe? Or maybe it's just something the No-God does in addition to getting souls that go from the world to the Outside. There's that weird quote about how the Inchoroi modeled the womb plague after the No-God principles, and while I thought it was simply them trying to figure out a way to kill babies, maybe there's a central part of No-God activation that kills babies. 

Heck, we don't know if it doesn't stop all births - souled and otherwise. 

1 minute ago, .H. said:

Summoning @Happy Ent to write us some good ol' fan-fic.

 

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22 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Same with the sarcophagus, presumably, which makes Cnaiur just randomly shouting at things angrily.

Well, one point of contention is that Cnaiur can see it and so Ajokli would be able to, through him.  It's only when we are talking about the disembodied Outside entity is it that Ajokli can't see the No-God.  Mundane vision is fine for it.  That's likely a major part of why Ajokli needs to commandeer eyes through a body.

25 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

There's that weird quote about how the Inchoroi modeled the womb plague after the No-God principles, and while I thought it was simply them trying to figure out a way to kill babies, maybe there's a central part of No-God activation that kills babies.

Yeah, it's hard to say if it was "designed that way" or it is just a nice complimentary side effect.  I tend to think side effect, but there is no real reason it has to be.  Again, considering the nonsensical paradoxical nature, it might even be both...

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Regarding the accidental ensoulment, if we think of the soul/psyche as a PoV in Creation forgetting that individuality is a lie then it seems possible the God may create an alternate personality whenever Its imagining of itself as an individual - whether animal or skin-spy - gets too deep.

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25 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

"I may look like a dog, but I self-identify as a human"

Quote

"I dream," Cleric's the Dog's voice booms through the wind howling black, "that I am a God good boy"

 

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I just re-read the introduction to the Judging Eye and realize Bakker was subtly fucking with us by giving us all the answers in that chapter. Harweel, who is incidentally probably saved since Kiunnat is more less confirmed to be the  correct way to believe, calls him a hunger from the outside who by his nature comes to dominate everything and Kellhus tells Sorweel that as strange as it sounds he really has come to save the world, in his own twisted Dunyain way. So there we go he shows his hand but gives it to us through sources we are disinclined to trust, 

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15 hours ago, Callan S. said:

Never really sure what 'save the world' actually involves, definitionally.

Which is a semantic ambiguity a Dunyain would abuse, of course.

Well, if we look at how things played out, I don't think Kellhus was playing with words all that much.  When he said, "save the world" he was just being as literal as possible.  In other words, he was really out to stop the Consult and prevent many people's death.

Of course, he was going to do this by selling everyone's soul to Ajokli.  While that does, indeed, seem pretty terrible, it's plausible that nearly everyone is damned anyway, so that really isn't a change to the status quo, for the most part.  Just changes who feeds out of the granary, not changing the fundamental fact that Eärwa is a granary.  Mortal suffering doesn't seem to be midigated, but consider what the Consult had been up to, the lines of people fed to the Sarcophagus, the suffering pits of places like Wreoleth, is Ajokli's plan likely magnitudes worse?

It's definitely arguable, it's hard to say if that is actually any better.  In one sense though, it logically is.  Where the Consult needs life to be snuffed out, humans to be essentially discontinued, Ajokli literally needs them for sustenance.  So, like a sort of "trolley problem" there isn't a great choice, but the Hell of Ajokli winning Eärwa is likely a slightly "greater good" than the Hell of the Consult winning Eärwa.

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32 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Except Bakker said that wasn't his plan, and he didn't expect to be taken over by Ajokli. I would agree with you except for that.

Well, yeah, that's true.  I do tend to forget what Bakker said when it doesn't make much sense.

But I do think that Kellhus plan really was to somehow leverage Ajokli to beat the Consult/Mutilated, then...something.  Maybe hoodwink Ajokli and basically become a god somehow himself?

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21 minutes ago, .H. said:

Well, yeah, that's true.  I do tend to forget what Bakker said when it doesn't make much sense.

But I do think that Kellhus plan really was to somehow leverage Ajokli to beat the Consult/Mutilated, then...something.  Maybe hoodwink Ajokli and basically become a god somehow himself?

Maybe? That's really the weird thing - there's really no indication of what his actual plan was, or what it even could have been outside of Ajokli. Killing the Consult? He knows that the No-God must exist at some point. Using Ajokli as a way to avoid the goad of the Inverse Fire? Okay, but what's the next step after that? 

I keep coming back to him telling Proyas that the blindness of the gods means that the No-God must succeed at some point. He has that awareness. He knows it must happen. What I don't know is what his plan is after that. Or, for that matter, why it requires him to bring the entire Ordeal to Golgotterath. Similarly, I don't understand the Consult plan either; their wish is to get Kellhus into the sarcophagus, obviously, but their plan to do that is to almost nuke him? To constantly try and wipe out his force? 

I'm not saying that there isn't some plan there for both groups, but at least right now the plan remains opaque at best. Whereas I understood completely what Moe's plan was after TTT, and how things fit all together in that plan - and how he went wrong - I don't understand the basic plan of Kellhus or the Consult. I only understand Ajokli's plan. 

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10 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Maybe? That's really the weird thing - there's really no indication of what his actual plan was, or what it even could have been outside of Ajokli. Killing the Consult? He knows that the No-God must exist at some point. Using Ajokli as a way to avoid the goad of the Inverse Fire? 

Well, it seems Kellhus knew about the Dunsult too though, so he presumable knew that he couldn't just beat them himself.  So, the Ajokli gambit, even though he somehow didn't plan to be possessed by him, must have been to invoke him somehow.  I mean, that is a little silly though, to think that Kellhus couldn't realize that there would need to be a vessel from which Ajokli was to manifest.  Unless Kellhus thought he could Diamos out Ajokli?

But it makes even less sense if Ajokli wasn't at all part of Kellhus plan.  How could he have beaten that many Chorae without Ajokli's thaumaturgic-miracle "magic?"

24 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Okay, but what's the next step after that?

Well, it would have to be something like the installation of Kellhus as "master of Ark."  Perhaps Kellhus aim then was to kill the Consult, defeat Ajokli in turn, then figure out how Ark and the No-God worked and use it to disenchant the world while not killing everything?  That sure presumes a lot, that might not even be possible, but I guess it better than just letting the Consult win?

26 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I keep coming back to him telling Proyas that the blindness of the gods means that the No-God must succeed at some point. He has that awareness. He knows it must happen. What I don't know is what his plan is after that. Or, for that matter, why it requires him to bring the entire Ordeal to Golgotterath. Similarly, I don't understand the Consult plan either; their wish is to get Kellhus into the sarcophagus, obviously, but their plan to do that is to almost nuke him? To constantly try and wipe out his force?

Yeah, although perhaps he figures if he alone can control the No-God's rise, than he can somehow dictate it's terms?  A bold presumption that might be false, but again, maybe it's better than conceding?

I do think that while Kellhus didn't plan the possession by Ajokli, he was courting him the whole time, in order to leverage his power.  In this way, I think the Ordeal was his "burning the field" to fully draw Ajokli's attention (probably not necessary considering) and also a literal distraction for the forces of the Consult.  Something rather trivial, but not something they could ignore.

As for them trying to nuke him, I am still firmly of the mind that both the Consult and Kellhus knew exactly what was going on.  That is, the Ground was Conditioned, and Kellhus was in zero actual danger there.  That was just a big swat at the distraction that was the Ordeal.  Sure, again, the Ordeal is trivial, but still annoying and means they have to divert resources to bothering with it.  The nuke itself can't possibly kill Kellhus him, between him anticipating it, his skin-wards, and his ability to teleport.

Sure, there is some very minute risk, that somehow Kellhus fails in anticipation, in his Wards and to teleport, but if that were the case, then evidently the prophecy was not for Kellhus, but someone else.  Also, I don't think doing nothing is a tenable position for the Consult.  If the Ordeal Proceeds completely unmolested, than the Consult is firmly on Kellhus' ground, at the whim of whatever he wants to do.  They have to push back and they have to push back as hard as they realistically can, even if that does carry some tiny element of risk.

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16 minutes ago, .H. said:

Well, it seems Kellhus knew about the Dunsult too though, so he presumable knew that he couldn't just beat them himself.  So, the Ajokli gambit, even though he somehow didn't plan to be possessed by him, must have been to invoke him somehow.  I mean, that is a little silly though, to think that Kellhus couldn't realize that there would need to be a vessel from which Ajokli was to manifest.  Unless Kellhus thought he could Diamos out Ajokli? 

Again, it's really unclear, especially with the idea that he was unaware of Ajokli's possession. 

What's a shame is that Kellhus ruling as Ajokli's human avatar and making the world a granary is entirely a great ending for Kellhus. It reinforces the idea that neither the Consult nor Kellhus nor the gods are the 'good' choice, and all of them suck as far as the fate of humanity. Being obliterated save for a few people, or being made into more tasty food for an evil demon to avoid the fate of the eternal torture of other demons - that's a great either/or thing. I really liked that as an ending ,though I felt Kellhus being possessed came quite out of left field (again, Kellhus having a PoV throughout the series would have greatly aided this). 

But apparently that's wrong, so...

16 minutes ago, .H. said:

 But it makes even less sense if Ajokli wasn't at all part of Kellhus plan.  How could he have beaten that many Chorae without Ajokli's thaumaturgic-miracle "magic?"

Yep. I mean, he's a ninja and shit and his magic apparently leaves no Mark now (at least some of it), but it makes far more sense for him to just wipe them out with laser fire instead. 

16 minutes ago, .H. said:

Well, it would have to be something like the installation of Kellhus as "master of Ark."  Perhaps Kellhus aim then was to kill the Consult, defeat Ajokli in turn, then figure out how Ark and the No-God worked and use it to disenchant the world while not killing everything?  That sure presumes a lot, that might not even be possible, but I guess it better than just letting the Consult win? 

Yeah, although perhaps he figures if he alone can control the No-God's rise, than he can somehow dictate it's terms?  A bold presumption that might be false, but again, maybe it's better than conceding? 

Maybe? That's totally reasonable, but not particularly supported by the text. It's certainly a possibility, and it would have been awesome if Kellhus had mentioned it as part of his plan to Proyas at some point. Tell Proyas that the real reason the gods oppose him (or so he thinks) is because they know his ultimate goal, which is to use the No-God as a way of disabling the gods and stop their evil preying. (the reason the gods oppose him is because they know he's Ajokli's, and they cannot allow Ajokli unfettered and sole access to the granary). 

16 minutes ago, .H. said:

I do think that while Kellhus didn't plan the possession by Ajokli, he was courting him the whole time, in order to leverage his power.  In this way, I think the Ordeal was his "burning the field" to fully draw Ajokli's attention (probably not necessary considering) and also a literal distraction for the forces of the Consult.  Something rather trivial, but not something they could ignore.

But...why? How is it distracting to them? I mean, their goal is to get Kellhus to the Golden Room and put him in the carapace. That's what they want, and Kellhus suspects as such. Kellhus wants to get to the Golden room and enslave/defeat them. Why do they need to distract, well, anyone? Who are they distracting? The Ordeal only makes sense if Kellhus' goal is to obliterate the Consult. Maybe that's it - that the Ordeal is the stick to go with Kellhus' offer, and he'll give them a choice - work with him to rejigger the No-God, or face utter destruction at his superior forces. But again - very unclear, and very weird. 

16 minutes ago, .H. said:

As for them trying to nuke him, I am still firmly of the mind that both the Consult and Kellhus knew exactly what was going on.  That is, the Ground was Conditioned, and Kellhus was in zero actual danger there.  That was just a big swat at the distraction that was the Ordeal.  Sure, again, the Ordeal is trivial, but still annoying and means they have to divert resources to bothering with it.  The nuke itself can't possibly kill Kellhus him, between him anticipating it, his skin-wards, and his ability to teleport.

Sure, there is some very minute risk, that somehow Kellhus fails in anticipation, in his Wards and to teleport, but if that were the case, then evidently the prophecy was not for Kellhus, but someone else.  Also, I don't think doing nothing is a tenable position for the Consult.  If the Ordeal Proceeds completely unmolested, than the Consult is firmly on Kellhus' ground, at the whim of whatever he wants to do.  They have to push back and they have to push back as hard as they realistically can, even if that does carry some tiny element of risk.

If that's the case, they should have just nuked the army more definitely. Their plan required Kellhus to find the nuke in time, realize what it was, and deploy it to wipe out most of the sranc horde. Blowing up the mountain which already had collapsed doesn't make sense as a trap. There were a lot of other places that they could have deployed the nuke more effectively to disable or slow the Ordeal. 

I think it makes more sense that they were trying to kill Kellhus, and that Kellhus as the insertant was their backup plan, their last bit of desperate hope. 

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30 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Again, it's really unclear, especially with the idea that he was unaware of Ajokli's possession. 

What's a shame is that Kellhus ruling as Ajokli's human avatar and making the world a granary is entirely a great ending for Kellhus. It reinforces the idea that neither the Consult nor Kellhus nor the gods are the 'good' choice, and all of them suck as far as the fate of humanity. Being obliterated save for a few people, or being made into more tasty food for an evil demon to avoid the fate of the eternal torture of other demons - that's a great either/or thing. I really liked that as an ending ,though I felt Kellhus being possessed came quite out of left field (again, Kellhus having a PoV throughout the series would have greatly aided this). 

But apparently that's wrong, so...

Well, I guess Bakker really wanted Kellhus to still have his own agency, despite basically selling his soul?

31 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Maybe? That's totally reasonable, but not particularly supported by the text. It's certainly a possibility, and it would have been awesome if Kellhus had mentioned it as part of his plan to Proyas at some point. Tell Proyas that the real reason the gods oppose him (or so he thinks) is because they know his ultimate goal, which is to use the No-God as a way of disabling the gods and stop their evil preying. (the reason the gods oppose him is because they know he's Ajokli's, and they cannot allow Ajokli unfettered and sole access to the granary).

Yeah, exposition of it all is so lacking, it's hard to tell what is even supported by the text at all.

34 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

But...why? How is it distracting to them? I mean, their goal is to get Kellhus to the Golden Room and put him in the carapace. That's what they want, and Kellhus suspects as such. Kellhus wants to get to the Golden room and enslave/defeat them. Why do they need to distract, well, anyone? Who are they distracting? The Ordeal only makes sense if Kellhus' goal is to obliterate the Consult. Maybe that's it - that the Ordeal is the stick to go with Kellhus' offer, and he'll give them a choice - work with him to rejigger the No-God, or face utter destruction at his superior forces. But again - very unclear, and very weird. 

Well, really our "best source" on Kellhus plan is Serwa:

Quote

“Serwa—” he began.
“We have no time,” she interrupted. “I saw Father upon the Vigil.”
A heartbeat of passionless scrutiny.
“So soon?”
“We need to storm the Ark now!”

This means that Serwa's understanding was that they should already be inside the Ark before Kellhus was going to enter the room.  Plausibly, Kellhus wouldn't have lied or misled her, because I'm not sure there would be much benefit.  So, why then did he go into the Golden Room before it was planned?  It's possible though that the plan given Serwa was a lie, just to have them kill themselves all the quicker.  It's also possible that, as Bakker alludes to, "Darkness has been claiming more and more of Kellhus as the Great Ordeal advanced. Ajokli was his destination, and the closer he came, the more he began to resemble him, finally becoming him in the Golden Room."

So, maybe he just couldn't resist going off plan at that point.  Again, I think the aim was to use Ajokli, even though the plan was not to be possessed by Ajokli.  But Ajokli planned to use Kellhus and doubtful he was keen on waiting.  So, maybe it was Kellhus' plan that the Ordeal clears the Ark to some degree, then once it's mostly done, he gets in there and faces much less opposition, since the skin-spies would likely be defending them from more mundane forces.

53 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

If that's the case, they should have just nuked the army more definitely. Their plan required Kellhus to find the nuke in time, realize what it was, and deploy it to wipe out most of the sranc horde. Blowing up the mountain which already had collapsed doesn't make sense as a trap. There were a lot of other places that they could have deployed the nuke more effectively to disable or slow the Ordeal. 

I think it makes more sense that they were trying to kill Kellhus, and that Kellhus as the insertant was their backup plan, their last bit of desperate hope. 

Well, it's almost like a Catch-22 for them.  If Kellhus is the one for the prophecy, they literally cannot kill him no matter what, so if they can kill him, well that scratches him off the list of candidates?  Sort of a litmus-test?  I mean, I guess that's sounds in theory, except it doesn't deal with the case of what happened.  Mostly because what happens is outside of what any of them could expect.

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