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lokisnow

Bakker LVI: the Rectum of Creation

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I will say that I think the whole Ajokli thing was set up from the scene where Kellhus and Cnaiur first meet Serwe. encountering her is why Kellhus deviates from the shortest path and from his father's instructions and travels to Momemn instead of traveling conditioned ground directly to Shimeh. And Kellhus becomes his most-undunyain in the entire first book at this point, he thinks about how he will SEIZE the holy war and BEND it to HIS will, Ajokli thoughts, not his own. And he constantly rationalizes away his blindness to Ajokli's manipulations and all his incredibly undunyain decisions in this section of the text, it's kellhus at his most inconsistent.

Moenghus also seems to know that Kellhus is possessed of another agency, and some of his interactions with Kellhus seem to be attempts at teasing out which agency has taken him over.

Edited by lokisnow

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18 hours ago, lokisnow said:

I will say that I think the whole Ajokli thing was set up from the scene where Kellhus and Cnaiur first meet Serwe. encountering her is why Kellhus deviates from the shortest path and from his father's instructions and travels to Momemn instead of traveling conditioned ground directly to Shimeh. And Kellhus becomes his most-undunyain in the entire first book at this point, he thinks about how he will SEIZE the holy war and BEND it to HIS will, Ajokli thoughts, not his own. And he constantly rationalizes away his blindness to Ajokli's manipulations and all his incredibly undunyain decisions in this section of the text, it's kellhus at his most inconsistent.

Moenghus also seems to know that Kellhus is possessed of another agency, and some of his interactions with Kellhus seem to be attempts at teasing out which agency has taken him over.

Well, I am already biased to think that Ajokli really enters the equation during the Circumfixtion.  So, in that way, I'd consider that Serwe had, as you said, already broken parts of Kellhus' Dunyain training.  So, in a way, Sewe is the counter to "Logocentrism" and the Circumfix is what finally breaks Kellhus open enough that Ajokli can truly enter.

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Well from what we know of the gods, Kellhus is was already always possessed of ajokli, the circumfix is where he first intervenes bodily by taking kellhus over to do all the impossible things like walking talking and transubstantiating serwes heart for his own.

so if he is always already possessed, then there is no point where it begins, there are only points where we can ascertain that manifestation may be contributing.

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the author's stated interpretations are not particularly helpful overall--but certainly this author should not be taken seriously while the narrative is subject to revision.  CUS was supposed to have been dead, for instance--his return was accordingly a revision, or the cunning author by means of these ultra vires pronouncements inhabits our interpretation as ajokli inhabits AK, puppeteering our readerly experience but leaving us blind to the cause thereof. 

whether premeditated trickery or spontaneous amendment, it is nevertheless a very flexible plot spoiler insurance policy to bodyguard the truth of a work in progress, a whispered revelation...the secret of prattle: unconquerable deceit, indomitable affliction.

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31 minutes ago, sologdin said:

...the secret of prattle: unconquerable deceit, indomitable affliction.

+10

Relates to the original line, there was a passage in the new expanse book that talks about battle as persuading your enemy.

Edited by larrytheimp

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On 3/31/2019 at 6:24 AM, sologdin said:

the author's stated interpretations are not particularly helpful overall--but certainly this author should not be taken seriously while the narrative is subject to revision.  CUS was supposed to have been dead, for instance--his return was accordingly a revision, or the cunning author by means of these ultra vires pronouncements inhabits our interpretation as ajokli inhabits AK, puppeteering our readerly experience but leaving us blind to the cause thereof. 

whether premeditated trickery or spontaneous amendment, it is nevertheless a very flexible plot spoiler insurance policy to bodyguard the truth of a work in progress, a whispered revelation...the secret of prattle: unconquerable deceit, indomitable affliction.

Yes to all this.

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On 3/31/2019 at 5:10 AM, One-Winged Balrog said:

“A novel is a machine for generating interpretations.”

Umberto Eco

“A novel is a machine for assaulting the genetic interpretive compulsion immanent in readers.”

RS Bakker

(some pollution begs the knife, and Bakker is going to try to cut it out)

Edited by lokisnow

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Thinking about it now, I'm most disappointed at how little really came out of that ending in TUC. So the Apocalypse is back on, another civilization (the Three Seas) is probably going to get wiped but civilization itself might survive because a big part of it is far away (Zeum), the No-God is alive but can be destroyed with sorcery now maybe, etc, etc, etc.  What's interesting that's new here, especially after Mimara's whole storyline was thoroughly squandered on something much less interesting? Who cares if her kid is something divine or whatever?  

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2 minutes ago, Spring Bass said:

Thinking about it now, I'm most disappointed at how little really came out of that ending in TUC. So the Apocalypse is back on, another civilization (the Three Seas) is probably going to get wiped but civilization itself might survive because a big part of it is far away (Zeum), the No-God is alive but can be destroyed with sorcery now maybe, etc, etc, etc.  What's interesting that's new here, especially after Mimara's whole storyline was thoroughly squandered on something much less interesting? Who cares if her kid is something divine or whatever?  

Another thing that would be disappointing to me potentially is that what was left of the Nonman world before the climax of TUC seems to have wiped itself out in a combination of a final cannibalistic fight at Ishoriol plus a kimikaze attack on the Ark so really nothing left now.  

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9 hours ago, Spring Bass said:

Thinking about it now, I'm most disappointed at how little really came out of that ending in TUC. So the Apocalypse is back on, another civilization (the Three Seas) is probably going to get wiped but civilization itself might survive because a big part of it is far away (Zeum), the No-God is alive but can be destroyed with sorcery now maybe, etc, etc, etc.  What's interesting that's new here, especially after Mimara's whole storyline was thoroughly squandered on something much less interesting? Who cares if her kid is something divine or whatever?  

Time for some weak defenses that are me grasping at straws. With Kellhus gone from a leadership role of the Ordeal, this is a perfect time for Kayutas or Serwa to take control of its remnants and possibly Kellhus's empire itself. This relies on assuming that there's anything left of the Ordeal to lead and that either Kayutas or Serwa survived, of course. In addition, Moe junior is now in control of the Scylvendi. If he chooses to lead the Scylvendi against the Consult, his leadership might end up being very important. If the outside is now blocked, Ajokli might be trapped in the physical world, making him a dangerous wildcard in the works that may come in the future. Proyas also reached a resolution of sorts in regards to his relationship with Akka, although this isn't as compelling as it should be since, from what I recall, Akka and company abandoned Proyas to die in the burning tent.

As for me, I'm unhappy that Crabicus is the focus of the first work of TNG. I have no real feelings towards him as a character and worry that Bakker will use him for philosophical musings rather than an exploration of the world in the aftermath of the rise of the No-God, which I would much prefer.

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So, I heard something and it has me thinking, one, I need to read up more on this, but two, perhaps @sologdin might be familiar enough with this to perhaps point me in the right direction on it.

I heard someone talking on a podcast about Marcuse's idea of the "Great Refusal" and that, in a way, to just "recast" women in the "ideal of" men, that is, just have females taking on what is viewed as "masculine qualities" is essentially to cast humans as "One-Dimensional" that is, that the "aggressive" manner in which we socially construct men and "masculine qualities" is not being "overcome" in this, rather, just the role of who takes on those qualities is just applied to everyone.  This would mean that women are not really "liberated" by this, rather, they are simply passed from one pigeon-hole to another.

Granted, I only just stumbled across this, so this idea is likely malformed.  And I'm sure there are critiques of Marcuse out there that are cogent.  However, having heard an overview, my poor quality brain seems to notice something like parallels in how his ideas seem to be and what Bakker almost seems to be doing.

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missed this earlier.  now you've got me wanting to reread one dimensional man; i recall it as an unhappy marriage of heideggerian phenomenology and freudianized marxism. am not recalling specific arguments about gender therein, but it has been a while.

the notion of the 'great refusal' shows up in his essay on liberation, and is connected therein with a nietzschean project of 'radical transvaluation of all values.'  that language is from the ubermensch argument; my reading of nietzsche there is that the ubermensch would need to be sonething that we have not seen yet--like a corporation, or by analogy, what would have the same relationship to corporations as corporations have to us (dunno if the NG fits that analogy, but it probably fits the ubermensch).

we know that the RSB reads heidegger and that he used marcuse's colleague for an epigraph in the third volume.

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On 4/2/2019 at 10:11 AM, Cithrin's Ale said:

Time for some weak defenses that are me grasping at straws. With Kellhus gone from a leadership role of the Ordeal, this is a perfect time for Kayutas or Serwa to take control of its remnants and possibly Kellhus's empire itself. This relies on assuming that there's anything left of the Ordeal to lead and that either Kayutas or Serwa survived, of course. In addition, Moe junior is now in control of the Scylvendi. If he chooses to lead the Scylvendi against the Consult, his leadership might end up being very important. If the outside is now blocked, Ajokli might be trapped in the physical world, making him a dangerous wildcard in the works that may come in the future. Proyas also reached a resolution of sorts in regards to his relationship with Akka, although this isn't as compelling as it should be since, from what I recall, Akka and company abandoned Proyas to die in the burning tent.

As for me, I'm unhappy that Crabicus is the focus of the first work of TNG. I have no real feelings towards him as a character and worry that Bakker will use him for philosophical musings rather than an exploration of the world in the aftermath of the rise of the No-God, which I would much prefer.

I've been out of the loop here for a bit....so is Bakker announced that another book or trilogy is coming? Crabicus is the young one, right? I would say I am due for a re-read but the ending sucks and so what is the point of torturing myself....lol

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On 4/27/2019 at 8:39 AM, sologdin said:

missed this earlier.  now you've got me wanting to reread one dimensional man; i recall it as an unhappy marriage of heideggerian phenomenology and freudianized marxism. am not recalling specific arguments about gender therein, but it has been a while.

Well, I think I might have been wrong, as I think maybe this idea is actually a mash up of what is in One Dimensional Man and what is in Eros and Civilization.  Along with something of what is in this speech, Maxism and Femanism.  I guess it "made some sense" to me because it's an idea I had seen before, that a "recasting" of women in "traditionally male" roles only maintains the idea of such "masculine traits" being sort of "dominant" or "superior."  This doesn't really liberate anyone, only recasts the role those traits are played out by, that is, everyone.  So, if it is the case that society "socially enforces" they idea that men should be "aggressive" and so then we turn the wheel and say, "well now women should be aggressive too" no one has been "liberated," really, from the tyranny of "enforced aggression."  Rather, people have just been homogenized.

Likely this though is part of where Marcuse goes wrong, if he ever was right, though.  While he'd sort of lament reducing humans to "one dimensional" he sort of ends up doing exactly that.  But I can't help but feel that likely what Bakker throws into the setting, how the fundamental metaphysical principle is not a dominant hierarchical force, rather a passive foundational one, is a jab right at the nature of a sort of "patriarchal ontology."

Or at least, so it seems to me in my deluded thinking.

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On 4/28/2019 at 9:52 AM, Wik said:

I've been out of the loop here for a bit....so is Bakker announced that another book or trilogy is coming? Crabicus is the young one, right? I would say I am due for a re-read but the ending sucks and so what is the point of torturing myself....lol

We don't know. Bakker floated some vague ideas about a series of books, possibly in the vein of the Atrocity Tales (i.e. short story collections post-TUC), and that Crabicus would be the focus of the first one. He hasn't said anything since, and hasn't updated his blog in nearly 7 months. Maybe he's been using that time to write?  

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30 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

We don't know. Bakker floated some vague ideas about a series of books, possibly in the vein of the Atrocity Tales (i.e. short story collections post-TUC), and that Crabicus would be the focus of the first one. He hasn't said anything since, and hasn't updated his blog in nearly 7 months. Maybe he's been using that time to write?  

Word on the street is that, yes, he is writing, but as to what and how much, we don't know.  He made a vague comment about it before he disappeared from his own blog, but it wasn't any detailed information.  I'd be willing to bet something gets done, but then when is not at all a certainty at all.  If I had to guess, I'd think 2021 is a real possibility, but that is not based off much (which is all we have).

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I remember once upon a time suggesting that Bakker could eventually have a word of mouth success that would up his sales.  What a quaint notion that seems to be today, and getting the second series done does not seem to have done much and if anything created a handful of Bakker fans that at once were assuredly going to read the next installment now being on the fence about that.  

It's hard to reach any conclusion right now other than that the status is quite uncertain.   

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Yeah word of mouth is not Bakker's friend.

 

Edit: One could also argue that a certain subset of his fans are not helping his sales much either :P

Edited by Darth Richard II

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