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Bakker LVI: the Rectum of Creation

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4 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

 All that said, I suspect the mathematics/metaphysics of the Gnosis turns on Geometry and questions that concerned Plato and the successors who live in his footnotes. My guess is the Gnosis involves certain mathematical and metaphysical concepts that are aided by Nonmen cognition but can be taught to humans. It might be the case that we, as moderns, could figure out the Gnosis from hearing the utterals but the concepts require an advanced civilization to develop - like the one the Nonmen had long before Men appeared.

The other possibility is that men were taught the gnosis the way you might teach a preschooler the quadratic formula. You can make them memorize it all you want, and even possibly plug in the numbers - but they may never understand where the formula comes from or why it is the way it is, and after a while they may never even think to ask that question (and then later, they never have the ability to do so). 

Also note that the Inchoroi could apparently learn the Gnosis as well, and who knows how fucked up their brains are. It's probably not a type of cognition, then. 

That all being said, it's incredibly weird that Akka spends most of his time studying and talking about philosophy and not, say, magical theory, given where his power comes from. I mean, I talk philosophy too, but I spend far more of my time talking about programming, even with people who aren't fluent in it, because it's something I do on a day to day basis regularly. It's odd that Akka doesn't do this, even with other Mandati. And he barely does it with Kellhus; he essentially teaches him the words, but not a whole lot of the theory behind it. 

Also, note that Shae didn't invent calculus; he simply figured out an application of a spell to defeat another. If anyone invented calculus it was Emilidis, and he did it like 800 years before. 

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1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

That all being said, it's incredibly weird that Akka spends most of his time studying and talking about philosophy and not, say, magical theory, given where his power comes from.

I actually think Philosophy is where his power comes from. Think about the long-winded metaphysical texts that most us get bored with - Varied schemes that have no scientific proof and won't change scientific progress either way.

Those are the what the inutterals involve, I suspect.

OTOH, given the philosophers Akka mentions seem to be available for public consumption....why can't the Scarlet Spires figure that shit out? Why I suspect some level of abstract mathematics is in play, or at the least the kind of metaphysics philosophers only come up with after being exposed to advanced concrete realizations.

And if you get really, really good at both metaphysics and science you can invent a No-God...

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2 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

I actually think Philosophy is where his power comes from. Think about the long-winded metaphysical texts that most us get bored with - Varied schemes that have no scientific proof and won't change scientific progress either way.

Those are the what the inutterals involve, I suspect.

 

From what he briefly discusses with Kellhus in TTT, this doesn't seem to be the case at all. There's a specific description of at least one of them in TTT, and IIRC it doesn't have anything to do with philosophy. 

Also, given that it's in a dead language and it is the same spell as done by the nonmen, I don't get how Ajencis or Memgowa's philosophical musings would help much. 

2 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

OTOH, given the philosophers Akka mentions seem to be available for public consumption....why can't the Scarlet Spires figure that shit out? Why I suspect some level of abstract mathematics is in play, or at the least the kind of metaphysics philosophers only come up with after being exposed to advanced concrete realizations.

Or, again, it's just rote repetition without understanding, and that's why things haven't advanced for 4000 years.

 

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52 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Yeah @Let's Get Kraken is a big Berserk guy.

Love me some Berserk. The more I re-read it, though, the more convinced I am that a lot of what folks take seriously is supposed to be satirical. I guess it's kind of like Watchmen in that way, another heavily existential read that people miss the satire in. The sword is a dick metaphor. As long as you keep that as your Nail of Heaven, it keeps alllllll the rest in perspective.

I know Miura has said he's planning to write until he's dead, but I do believe that he has an ending in mind for Berserk.

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

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On 11/17/2018 at 11:58 PM, Dora Vee said:

I think the difference though is that Berserk includes some pretty savage vengeance as a theme. And that person isn't quite like Cnaiur. 

I do think both comment on the destructive nature of toxic masculinity though. I believe the author's intent is for Guts to seem less sympathetic when he's at his most vengeful, despite the thirst-quenching nature of some of these scenes for the reader.

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

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1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

From what he briefly discusses with Kellhus in TTT, this doesn't seem to be the case at all. There's a specific description of at least one of them in TTT, and IIRC it doesn't have anything to do with philosophy. 

Also, given that it's in a dead language and it is the same spell as done by the nonmen, I don't get how Ajencis or Memgowa's philosophical musings would help much. 

Or, again, it's just rote repetition without understanding, and that's why things haven't advanced for 4000 years.

But then why are Mandati called Philosopher Magi?

Yeah I doubt it's Ajencis or Memgowa's musings, it likely has something to do with Nonmen philosophy. After all they had to come up with the Gnosis, though I suppose they might've been given insight via their god.

Reason I don't think it's just rote is the whole thing about meaning, and the strength of Gnosis lying in direct description of reality as opposed to the Anagnosis.

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3 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

But then why are Mandati called Philosopher Magi? 

Why are the Scylvendi called the people of war? Most of the time they lost, after all. Probably they're called that because their primary way of gaining patronage isn't through owning a country - it's through acting as royal tutors and teachers. 

3 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Yeah I doubt it's Ajencis or Memgowa's musings, it likely has something to do with Nonmen philosophy. After all they had to come up with the Gnosis, though I suppose they might've been given insight via their god.

Reason I don't think it's just rote is the whole thing about meaning, and the strength of Gnosis lying in direct description of reality as opposed to the Anagnosis.

I'd buy that more if it had changed in 4000+ years. That spells are basically identical from the ones that Cleric uses means to me that almost nothing has changed at all. 

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I do think both comment on the destructive nature of toxic masculinity though.

Yes. Very true. Especially in the case of Cnaiur. I don't think Guts would have issues of homosexuality/bisexuality though. 

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1 hour ago, Dora Vee said:

Yes. Very true. Especially in the case of Cnaiur. I don't think Guts would have issues of homosexuality/bisexuality though. 

There was an aspect of that in the way he dealt with his own childhood assault. But with Guts it is definitely expressed more through explorations of the psychological effects of the notions of sexual ownership and use of violence as means of redress. 

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

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On 11/16/2018 at 4:25 PM, Sci-2 said:

The original anime is good but from what I've seen of the newer one you're liable to miss some of the character beats that are found in the illustration.

Oh the new one is hysterical in an entirely unintentional way. Apparently showing a demonically possessed horse trying to rape a bound woman is okay...but said woman's nipples have to be digitally removed, lest innocent eyes be corrupted. Note, I didn't say covered up or shadowed, I said removed. Apparently they also made Casca super white in some of the early flashbacks, but I didn't stick with it long enough to see if they changed that.

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

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2 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Oh the new one is hysterical in an entirely unintentional way. Apparently showing a demonically possessed horse trying to rape a bound woman is okay...but said woman's nipples have to be digitally removed, lest innocent eyes be corrupted. Note, I didn't say covered up or shadowed, I said removed. Apparently they also made Casca super white in some of the early flashbacks, but I didn't stick with it long enough to see if they changed that.

Yeah I skipped around as it didn't seem worth it to watch all the way through - it was kinda cool to see some things animated like the journey to Quipploth. And they might be going back to traditional animation, which will be nice for Fantasia.

I wonder if there could ever be a Bakkerverse anime. Perhaps a story set in the times of the Ark-Fall, ending with the rise of the No-God the first time around.

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39 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

I wonder if there could ever be a Bakkerverse anime. Perhaps a story set in the times of the Ark-Fall, ending with the rise of the No-God the first time around.

There is too much stigma (mostly from Bakker himself) around something being animated to have that happen, although I think it would be pretty neat to "see" Nonman Gnosis in action among other things, like Wracu, the Tall (while still sane), Ishterebinth before it was ruined, along with stuff like the Breaking of the Gates and Siöl itself.

It really is a massively lost opportunity.

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2 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

Yeah I skipped around as it didn't seem worth it to watch all the way through - it was kinda cool to see some things animated like the journey to Quipploth. And they might be going back to traditional animation, which will be nice for Fantasia.

Did they ever wind up doing the Lost Children arc? I really couldn't bring myself to watch another episode of that anime after the first two, the animation and pacing were just too bad. And I say this as somebody who rabidly defended the Golden Age movie trilogy and the old 90s anime, both of which were riddled by some pretty sloppy effects. But anyway, yeah, curious if they ever did Lost Children. That remains my favorite arc, and quite frankly dark fantasy at its absolute finest.

Quote

 wonder if there could ever be a Bakkerverse anime. Perhaps a story set in the times of the Ark-Fall, ending with the rise of the No-God the first time around.

I'm convinced animation is the only way Bakker could ever really be adapted to the screen, big or small.

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

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2 hours ago, .H. said:

There is too much stigma (mostly from Bakker himself)

Source? I mean the trailer uses basic animation?

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4 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Did they ever wind up doing the Lost Children arc? I really couldn't bring myself to watch another episode of that anime after the first two, the animation and pacing were just too bad. And I say this as somebody who rabidly defended the Golden Age movie trilogy and the old 90s anime, both of which were riddled by some pretty sloppy effects. But anyway, yeah, curious if they ever did Lost Children. That remains my favorite arc, and quite frankly dark fantasy at its absolute finest.

I'm convinced animation is the only way Bakker could ever really be adapted to the screen, big or small.

Pretty sure they never went back to it.

But agreed animation seems the best route...the Inchoroi scream refugees-from-some-hentai after all...

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Animation could make both the sorcery and the Dunyain thinking process look amazing, in a way that would be really hard to do in live-action. 

On 11/19/2018 at 8:16 PM, Kalbear said:

I'd buy that more if it had changed in 4000+ years. That spells are basically identical from the ones that Cleric uses means to me that almost nothing has changed at all. 

Why would it necessarily change? They got it from the Nonmen, who presumably had spent millennia working out virtually all the possibilities of gnostic sorcery. Maybe they're just at the point where creating new gnostic spells would be extremely difficult to impossible for regular Mandate Schoolmen, taking either millennia of practice and experience (as with the surviving Quya), or a very rare mind. We only know of one non-Dunyain or Dunyain-descended person who can even do metagnostic spells. 

Meanwhile, the Glossary does show innovation in Anagogic sorcery.  

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1 minute ago, Winter Bass said:

Why would it necessarily change? They got it from the Nonmen, who presumably had spent millennia working out virtually all the possibilities of gnostic sorcery.

Because Kellhus changes it in like 3 weeks. It's clearly not the limits of gnostic sorcery. Furthermore, we see other innovators like Emilidis and Titirga who showcase more interesting aspects of spells as well. 

1 minute ago, Winter Bass said:

Maybe they're just at the point where creating new gnostic spells would be extremely difficult to impossible for regular Mandate Schoolmen, taking either millennia of practice and experience (as with the surviving Quya), or a very rare mind. We only know of one non-Dunyain or Dunyain-descended person who can even do metagnostic spells. 

Maybe, sure. But 4000 years when your entire life is devoted to doing nothing but spellcasting and war with zero innovation is, well, pretty odd. Even if the spells don't change, the tactics of using them, the tactics of using spellcasters together in various ways, the strategies of multiple arcs of fire and whatnot - these things should also be developed.

But for the most part we don't see that either. We see occasional dueling between mages where clever tricks are done, mostly around the environment (Akka dropping the building on chorae users, Titirga's pit trap silliness) but we never see coordinated attacks or communication even among Kellhus' squad. 

But really, 4000 years where there is absolutely no development and then there's immediate development because Kellhus? Sorry, don't buy it. Newton was really, really smart, but calculus wasn't something that came right out of the blue, and there was a lot of math that preceded it that backed it up. That is, of course, assuming that it's a mathematical or scientific thing, which is what I've been saying it might as well not have been for the Mandate. They know as much about how the gnosis works as a mechanic knows about the programming that runs the computer of the car they're working on. 

1 minute ago, Winter Bass said:

Meanwhile, the Glossary does show innovation in Anagogic sorcery.  

What was that?

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A possible retort to all of that:

Mightn't it be possible that there are thresholds that are difficult to cross?  And might the 2nd inutteral be an example of crossing a threshold? 

I was watching yet another one of those TED talks on youtube (hilarious how likely it is that some of y'all have watched these even though we haven't discussed it), and they get into the Drake equation and the steps that are so difficult to cross.  Like, how hard is it for microbial life to begin?  How hard is it for modern tech to develop?  How hard is it to survive modern tech possibly destroying the world?  How hard is it to achieve interstellar space travel even for a society that crosses all of these?  Which of these is the Great Barrier? 

Maybe there was a phenomenal accomplishment in the achievement the Nonmen and the Sohonc in developing and refining the Gnosis but they largely hit a threshold / barrier, and it took an Einstein (Kellhus) to advance it from that point.  

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