Jump to content
norwaywolf123

How could Steffon Baratheon not find a Valyrian bride for Rhaegar?

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

It's not good enough for what they need.

Yes, and I think Aerys tells us that when he first holds Rhaenys, sniffs and says 'she smells Dornish'.   He's looking for dragon rider blood and there might not be any left in the noble families, giving us a good indication of how special Dany is.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Megorova said:

When Steffon and his people were in Volantis, Faceless Man, hired by Tywin, killed Steffon. He has approached Steffon, playing role of a fool Patchface. The one, about whom Steffon has wrote in his letter home.

Though, maybe, even that letter was written not by Steffon, but already by Patchface, that was impersonating Steffon, after killing him, and taking his face. Maybe, he wrote that letter, because he was thinking ahead. By mentioning Patchface in Steffon's letter, and Steffon's desire to bring that fool and use him to teach Stannis to laught, that Faceless Man made sure, that people from Steffon's household will honor his final will, and will accept Patchface into Baratheon castle, because that's what they thought, what Steffon would have wanted.

When their ship was sailing back to Westeros, that Faceless Man either 1. killed a cook, took his face, poisoned their food, and gave it to all people on that ship; or 2. he, pretending to be Steffon, near the end of their voyage, brought out a casket of wine, and ordered to treat with it crew of their ship, to celebrate their return home, and that wine was poisoned. So by the time, when ship was approaching coast of Westeros, everyone on it's board, except that Faceless Man, was already dead. Then he took a boat, and sailed towards shore, and the ship wrecked on sea rocks during storm.

It could have happened. Why not?

Maybe Tywin thought, that if Steffon won't find a bride for Rhaegar, and will also die, while he was on that mission, then Aerys won't have any other choise, aside from making amends with Tywin. Because besides Steffon, Aerys had only one other friend - Tywin. So Tywin expected, that to get him back to Targaryen court, Aerys will offer to him to marry their children (what Tywin asked him before their major break up). Though instead of choosing Cersei as Rhaegar's bride, Aerys has chosen Elia (which was not what Tywin expected to happen).

Nonsense.  I'd call it fanfic, but it's below that threshold.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like a lot of other people have said, it was probably because Aerys provided him with a laundry list of requirements that no one could ever have hoped to meet.

I like the notion that him coming back with a fool is a metaphor for the expedition itself. i.e. "Only a fool would want to marry into the Westerosi royal family".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

There is no basis for such a theory. What do you imagine Tywin would have been required to give up in order for the FM to agree to not only kill a Small Councilor and possible future Hand of Aerys, but his wife, and the rest of the people on the ship?

There is basis for this theory - those three things, about which I wrote before.

And it's not like that Faceless Man had to combat with all of them, to kill them. And poisoning doesn't require significant efforts. So either Tywin paid to FM to do two things - 1. to kill Steffon, and impersonate him for the rest of that trip; and 2. on their return trip, to put poison in food or wine<- both tasks are simple and easy (for someone like FM). Thus Tywin didn't paid for everyone who died, he paid for Steffon's separate death, and for adding of poison. Either this (Tywin paid with money), or maybe him and Faceless Men had some other deal.

Maybe Tywin had sent his people to the House of Black and White, as many as members of Steffon's expedition. So for each of those deaths, Tywin gave one life as payment. Tywin had lots of servants, so for him to give 100 of them to Faceless Men, is nothing.

Or maybe FM themselves were interested in Steffon's death. Maybe, besides finding a bride for Rhaegar, Steffon was also ordered to look for information about how to hatch dragon eggs. And because FM are not dragonfriendly, they conspired with Tywin, and helped him (for free, or for a small payment) to get rid of Steffon.

Or maybe that FM and Tywin had some sort of different deal, something like agreement between Arya and Jaqen.

So it could have happened, even though it looks like a fanfic. Though I won't be surprised, if eventually GRRM will reveal to readers, that Patchface is a Faceless Man, and it was him who killed Steffon Baratheon and his people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Yes, and I think Aerys tells us that when he first holds Rhaenys, sniffs and says 'she smells Dornish'.   He's looking for dragon rider blood and there might not be any left in the noble families, giving us a good indication of how special Dany is.  

Aerys snubbed Cersei citing the Lannisters were servants.  The Martells are also.  It had to be the Martell's earlier marriage to the first Daenerys.  She gave them a little amount of dragon dna.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Faera said:

Like a lot of other people have said, it was probably because Aerys provided him with a laundry list of requirements that no one could ever have hoped to meet.

I like the notion that him coming back with a fool is a metaphor for the expedition itself. i.e. "Only a fool would want to marry into the Westerosi royal family".

Nah.  I prefer the notion that Steffon was already a part of the plot to usurp the Targaryens.  Steffon purposely failed in order to prevent the future return of the dragons.  Steffon was in the stinky pockets of Rickard and Jon Arryn.  He was already filling his son's head with treasonous nonsense.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/9/2018 at 9:14 AM, Megorova said:

I think, that, maybe, Steffon didn't managed to find a bride for Rhaegar, because he was killed by Faceless Man, shortly after his arrival to Volantis. Then that Faceless Man impersonated Steffon, and killed all other people from Steffon's entourage. Then, when the ship (full of corpses) was approaching coast of Stormlands, he made that ship to crush. He was the only survivor of that shipwreck, because all other passengers were dead even before they crushed. Then he reported to his employer, that the mission was succesful, and a few days later, took a new identity - Patchface, and was installed in the household of Baratheons, to keep watching over them, just in case. And the one, who hired him to kill Steffon and his people, and then to continue to spy after Steffon's sons, was Tywin Lannister. 

Obviously, that this theory is very speculative. I got this idea because of three things:

1. It's really wierd, that Steffon didn't managed to find anyone in Essos, with dragonblood purer than Elia Martell's.

2. Patchface appeared only on third day after shipwreck, but where was he before that, and how did he survived, if he supposedly was in the open sea for those three days?

3. There was rumors, that Aerys planned to kill Tywin, after Steffon will bring a Valyrian bride for Rhaegar. So if Steffon's mission was sucessful, then it was as good as death sentence for Tywin. Thus he had a motive to get rid of Steffon, and to make Steffon's mission to fail.

Aerys suspected that Tywin was behind Steffon's death. This is insane because the ship was destroyed by a hurricane.

As for why Steffon failed, here is some speculation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Aerys suspected that Tywin was behind Steffon's death. This is insane because the ship was destroyed by a hurricane.

As for why Steffon failed, here is some speculation.

Though look at this - the ship was destroyed by a hurricane - from a different angle. First of all, it was not a hurricane, but a storm, average sea storm, which is a common occurence for seas near Stormlands <- those lands are called storm lands, because it's ofter storming in there. So the crew of Steffon's ship were a seasoned sailors and experienced navigators, they knew how to sail thru storming seas, and how to survive thru storm. They knew that coast, they knew where there were sea rocks and shallows. They were experienced sea-travelers, so they knew by weather conditions, that soon the storm will begin. So they would have made countermeasures, not to crush. But for some reason, not only the ship has wrecked, but also none of those people didn't managed to survive. Experienced sailors and sea-wolves drowned, but a fool-boy has managed to swim out? Doesn't it all look suspicious? But that shipwreck could be explained, if the ship's crew was already dead, by the time of that storm, and thus (because they were all dead) they did nothing to avoid crushing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stevie can't find the bride who will make everyone happy.  Going overseas ensures a lack of partiality from the Targaryens to their vassals.  Nobody gets ahead of the rest.  He can't satisfy everybody.  A match with Cersei makes the dynasty stronger as long as the lions stay loyal but people like the Starks and the Martells won't be happy about it.  A wife from the Free Cities might be the solution because she will have the presumption of neutrality.  Yeah so the right heritage but also the right look.  Steve is not coming back with a girl from the Summer Islands.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Steffon and his lady blew the allowance from Aerys.  Leave their rowdy boys behind for some alone time and have a second honeymoon on Aerys' dime.   They toured the best eating establishments.  Bought expensive jewels.   Caught a play or two in Braavos.  Got into some pillow time with the pros in Lys.  It was good.  Let that mopey dope of a prince find his own wife.    

Edited by The Transporter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎11‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 7:08 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

In the free cities of Essos is supposly populated by an upper class with significant Valyrian ancestry.

That might include Norvos, whose current theocracy was founded by Valyrian schismatics.  A curious detail is that their noblewomen shave their heads and wear wigs.  What can we guess, then, about Mellario of Norvos?

"While in Lys even the smallfolk is said to be of Valyrian stock. How could Steffon not find a bride for Rhaegar there?"

Probably, commoners were ruled out.  Noble blood, and noble upbringing, tends to matter, to other nobles.

"Are Valyrian noble Houses reluctant to let their female members depart?"

Well, the Norovisi practices would tend to the Valyrian traits of their women ... assuming there were any to hide.

"Dragonstone is also said to be populated by dragonseeds could they qualify as Rhaegars bride?"

 Only if bastards would be considered suitable.  I am guessing, no.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/9/2018 at 7:08 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

In the free cities of Essos is supposly populated by an upper class with significant Valyrian ancestry. While in Lys even the smallfolk is said to be of Valyrian stock. How could Steffon not find a bride for Rhaegar there?

He didn't want to.  See the rest of my answers.

On 11/9/2018 at 7:08 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

 

What was the criteria that Aerys had for Rhaegar's prospective bride?

They were looking for a female Blackfyre.  She's the best choice for enhancing the dragon-riding genetics.  Steffon Baratheon knows his history and worried about bringing a Blackfyre back to the kingdom.  

On 11/9/2018 at 7:08 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

 

Are Valyrian noble Houses reluctant to let their female members depart?

Very much so.  The females carry the dragon-riding traits and pass it on to their children.  The Dragonlords wanted to keep a monopoly on dragons.

On 11/9/2018 at 7:08 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

 

Dragonstone is also said to be populated by dragonseeds could they qualify as Rhaegars bride? 

Dragonseeds might qualify genetically but her social status is not going to be fit for a prince of the kingdom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are many potential explanations for this - no suitable bride of noble Valyrian blood available, potential candidates unwilling to marry the son of a Mad King, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although it's an interesting possibility, I am skeptical that Aerys sent Steffan to find a Blackfyre. Steffan was supposedly sent to Volantis, while Blackfyres would be more likely to be found in Tyrosh or one of the other nearer Free Cities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

On 11/9/2018 at 3:34 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

This indicates that the pre-Doom Valyrians preferred incest even when there were forty noble dragonlord families to wed, and they had to have their reasons for such a preference which went beyond just perpetuating the superficial silver-gold hair and purple eyes.

Maybe due to this preference the families that Aerys/Steffon considered eligible would not want for a Targaryen marriage?

On 11/9/2018 at 3:34 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

I think it is possible that Aerys was looking to find noble Essosi descendants of the Targaryens who he might have viewed as possibly helpful in his attempts to bring back the Targaryen dragons. House Targaryen was down to four people (Aerys, Rhaella, Rhaegar, Viserys) after twenty years of marriage, and there was going to be no daughter for Rhaegar to marry. 

Were Blackfyres considered? Ilyrio Mopatis said that House Blackfyre died out only in the male line when Maelys dies at teh stepstones. Perhaps if Aerys knew of the potentially surving female line, Aerys would want to bring a Blackfyre woman to Westeros to be Rhaegar's wife?

 

Or maybe some other Targaryen descendant in Essos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

Stevie can't find the bride who will make everyone happy.  Going overseas ensures a lack of partiality from the Targaryens to their vassals.  Nobody gets ahead of the rest.  He can't satisfy everybody.  A match with Cersei makes the dynasty stronger as long as the lions stay loyal but people like the Starks and the Martells won't be happy about it.  A wife from the Free Cities might be the solution because she will have the presumption of neutrality.  Yeah so the right heritage but also the right look.  Steve is not coming back with a girl from the Summer Islands.  

Maybe Steffon did not want to find a Essosi bride for Rhaegar?

 

Maybe Steffon thought that Cersei was a great match for Rhaegar?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

That might include Norvos, whose current theocracy was founded by Valyrian schismatics.  A curious detail is that their noblewomen shave their heads and wear wigs.  What can we guess, then, about Mellario of Norvos?

Is there any descriptions of Mellario? I have not seen any description but i have seen a picture that portrayed her as looking similar tp her daughter Arianne.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Although it's an interesting possibility, I am skeptical that Aerys sent Steffan to find a Blackfyre. Steffan was supposedly sent to Volantis, while Blackfyres would be more likely to be found in Tyrosh or one of the other nearer Free Cities.

Maybe a descendant of Saera Targaryen? Or more likely some other dragonlord family.

1 hour ago, Sydney Mae said:

Snip

Perhaps there was some known female Blackfyre in Essos that Steffon went to meet, but she refused his offer? If there was such a Blackfyre in Essos perhaps we will learn of it later?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Descendants of Saera would only be eligible brides for Rhaegar if the woman ever married there. Considering we learn she died as the proprietor of a famous brothel I doubt she ever married - especially not into a family a Targaryen prince would deem worthy of marriage. Still, if that happened, then the Targaryen blood of such a family would have been diluted to the degree that it would be pretty much irrelevant.

I mean, what would Steffon Baratheon do if some guy came to him showing him some family tree claiming the man and his daughter or sister descended from the whore-princess? Do we think that would cause Steffon to choose them? If Aerys wanted some woman with Targaryen blood from a minor house he could have turned to the Plumms, Penroses, and possibly the Tarths.

He would have sent Steffon to Volantis for a woman with Valyrian looks from a very ancient, prestigious, and wealthy family with dragonlord ancestors. One assumes even in Volantis such women with the proper pedigree and financial background are not necessarily easy to come by. Especially if the Volantenes were not that eager to marry their darling daughters to the sons of foreign madmen.

Another crucial part might be that Aerys most likely wanted a foreign bride for Rhaegar to prevent him from making an alliance with a powerful Westerosi house by ways of marriage (Elia may have been compromise choice in the end - she has Targaryen blood but she comes from Dorne which makes her not very influential outside Dorne). A family deeply invested in the Volantene government may also not have been the right one, considering that such a family might then try to gain influence and power in Westeros - like the Rogares did back during the Regency of Aegon III.

A woman of high birth, from a rich family, with dragonlord ancestors whose family isn't politically active or interested would have been very hard to come by, one assumes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×