Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Tywin et al.

Kristallnacht -80 Years Later, How Have We Changed?

Recommended Posts

21 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Ah, I'd genuinely forgotten about this "crisis."

So yes, there was a "migrant crisis" between 2015 and 2018. Apparently about 880,000 sought to migrate to the EU in 2015.
At the time, France was supposed to welcome 19,714 people. It actually welcomed 5,029 people.
Different numbers that tell the same story. In 2017, 538,000 people applied for asylum in Europe, 175,800 of whom came from Syria. 432,000 were denied. In other words, only only 106,000 asylum seekers entered the EU in 2017.
You will probably find slightly different numbers depending on your source.
If I check the government's official website for instance, France welcomes about 200,000 immigrants a year (230,000 in 2016, 260,000 in 2017). Syrians? Nah. In 2016, about 70,000 came from our former colonies in the Maghreb (Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco), 16,000 from China and 7,000 from the US. Syria doesn't make it in the top 5. Asylum seekers? We only had a few thousand of those, as I said.
Where the hell did these Syrians go, eh?

Oh, sure there were lots of images on TV and in the newspapers. Merkel's Germany made bold choices. The rest of the EU... It varied, though of course, Greece and Italy experienced more pressure than France.
Anyway, there was no crisis in France. Again, nothing, zilch, nada. But you're right, the media presented it as a crisis. Lots of terrible images, all these brown people who seemed to want to come to our homes... Most of them ended up in camps at EU borders of course, but that story was not to be told.
Instead we had the migrant "crisis," combined with a few terrorist attacks while Marine Le Pen was busy improving her image. So of course she got 33% of the vote in 2017.
The impact of globalization on French culture and way of life, meanwhile, remained negligible.

This is reflect in the "immigrant crisis" in Britain, where we accepted less than 10,000 refugees, a lot of whom actually ended up in Scotland and Northern Ireland. The invading hordes of brown immigrants never materialised here, but it's caused some consternation.

The real "migrant crisis" in the UK was seen as perfectly legal immigration from other European countries of people coming here to work, paying more tax into the system and propping up the health and services industries which native British people are refusing to do, which for some reason is some kind of sin that has to be repaid by a massive act of economic self-harm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

Ah, I'd genuinely forgotten about this "crisis."

So yes, there was a "migrant crisis" between 2015 and 2018. Apparently about 880,000 sought to migrate to the EU in 2015.
At the time, France was supposed to welcome 19,714 people. It actually welcomed 5,029 people.
Different numbers that tell the same story. In 2017, 538,000 people applied for asylum in Europe, 175,800 of whom came from Syria. 432,000 were denied. In other words, only only 106,000 asylum seekers entered the EU in 2017.
You will probably find slightly different numbers depending on your source.
If I check the government's official website for instance, France welcomes about 200,000 immigrants a year (230,000 in 2016, 260,000 in 2017). Syrians? Nah. In 2016, about 70,000 came from our former colonies in the Maghreb (Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco), 16,000 from China and 7,000 from the US. Syria doesn't make it in the top 5. Asylum seekers? We only had a few thousand of those, as I said.
Where the hell did these Syrians go, eh?

Oh, sure there were lots of images on TV and in the newspapers. Merkel's Germany made bold choices. The rest of the EU... It varied, though of course, Greece and Italy experienced more pressure than France.
Anyway, there was no crisis in France. Again, nothing, zilch, nada. But you're right, the media presented it as a crisis. Lots of terrible images, all these brown people who seemed to want to come to our homes... Most of them ended up in camps at EU borders of course, but that story was not to be told.
Instead we had the migrant "crisis," combined with a few terrorist attacks while Marine Le Pen was busy improving her image. So of course she got 33% of the vote in 2017.
The impact of globalization on French culture and way of life, meanwhile, remained negligible.

While I agree with you in principle(a media made crisis) the bold part is not true at all.

Most of those asylum seekers entered to EU not just those that were granted asylum. 24,735 applied for asylum in Austria in 2017 for example which is currently only possible if you are already in the country. It used to be possible to do it in an Austrian embassy but our first far right government got rid of that option in the early 2000s.

Most that were denied did not leave the EU either because returning them to their home countries is usually a lengthy process and often people who are denied proper asylum are allowed to stay temporary until hostilities in their home countries are over. 

At least in Austria most people which are deported are deported to other EU countries(because of the Dublin Regulation).

Most people denied asylum actually leave Austria voluntarily after receiving no asylum. Usually with destination unknown according to the official statistics. Sometimes they show up in Austria again though. 

Edited by Wolfgang I
Not 2071... I played too much Fallout recently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regardless, I think the main point about the 'migrant crisis' is being missed, which is that it had little, if any, actual impact on most voters' lives. If voters in the EU were concerned about it, it was largely because of the media coverage.

Which bears on the topic of the thread, because the one common thread I see that laid the ground for Kristallnacht and hasn't changed is that willingness to tell and believe stories that lay the ground for abominable actions against those who are designated as 'not like us'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Wolfgang I said:

While I agree with you in principle(a media made crisis) the bold part is not true at all.

Most of those asylum seekers entered to EU not just those that were granted asylum. 24,735 applied for asylum in Austria in 2017 for example which is currently only possible if you are already in the country. It used to be possible to do it in an Austrian embassy but our first far right government got rid of that option in the early 2000s.

Bear in mind that Syrians would find it easier to reach Austria than France.
Anyway, wikipedia has a breakdown of where the Syrian refugees actually went, and I believe it's regardless of whether the applications were granted or not (it says "applicants" for most countries).
The number is 45,827 for Austria, which is consistant with your own figure. The numbers for France and the UK are 11,694 and 10,583 respectively.
Of course the countries that actually faced a crisis were Turkey (3,5M), Lebanon (2,2M) and Jordan (1,27M).
Germany's fourth at about 700,000, Sweden 9th with 122,000, then Hungary and Canada at 13th and 14th.

And yes, of course, the conclusion is that this had little to no impact on our lives.

Edited by Rippounet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, mormont said:

Regardless, I think the main point about the 'migrant crisis' is being missed, which is that it had little, if any, actual impact on most voters' lives. If voters in the EU were concerned about it, it was largely because of the media coverage.

Which bears on the topic of the thread, because the one common thread I see that laid the ground for Kristallnacht and hasn't changed is that willingness to tell and believe stories that lay the ground for abominable actions against those who are designated as 'not like us'.

The interesting thing is that areas that were really touched by the crisis here in Austria(mainly people on the route the refugees took to Germany) voted more left than the people which were not affected when we elected our current President(the former leader of the green party) in 2016.

It was not until last year the things made a real turn for the worse. At a time when most of the refugees from that time were already gone or being integrated. 

13 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Bear in mind that Syrians would find it easier to reach Austria than France.
Anyway, wikipedia has a breakdown of where the Syrian refugees actually went, and I believe it's regardless of whether the applications were granted or not (it says "applicants" for most countries).
The number is 45,827 for Austria, which is consistant with your own figure. The numbers for France and the UK are 11,694 and 10,583 respectively.
Of course the countries that actually faced a crisis were Turkey (3,5M), Lebanon (2,2M) and Jordan (1,27M).
Germany's fourth at about 700,000, Sweden 9th with 122,000, then Hungary and Canada at 13th and 14th.

And yes, of course, the conclusion is that this had little to no impact on our lives.

I actually moved to a small city with a refugee camp(well two former hotels) in early 2017 and it felt like the location was picked on purpose by the conservative controlled interior ministry to scare people(about 250 young men and teenage boys with nothing to do in a city of less than 5000 people). Shit happened of course especially on the sexual harassment side of things. It was a really left leaning place before that but not anymore. A few weeks after the current far right government was sworn in the refugees vanished over night...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Wolfgang I said:

The interesting thing is that areas that were really touched by the crisis here in Austria(mainly people on the route the refugees took to Germany) voted more left than the people which were not affected when we elected our current President(the former leader of the green party) in 2016.

It was not until last year the things made a real turn for the worse. At a time when most of the refugees from that time were already gone or being integrated.

Yeah, and this sort of thing is a pattern. The areas that voted most strongly for Brexit were mostly areas where, again, immigration was fairly low. The fear of immigrants is more poisonous than the experience of living with immigration. And the fear of immigration is created by xenophobes (I wish I could just say 'the right', but I've seen too many supposed anti-EU 'left' voters on Twitter stoking the same fires) and by the media. not by the actual experience of meeting and living alongside immigrants.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×