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Star Trek Discovery #3 [Spoilers] - It's A Wonderful Spock!

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Well if they are saying it is a direct relationship with the other Treks then that is some royal level of bullshit right there. Maybe my ignorance of that fact helped me through. 

I just took it as a sort of alternate universe in the same way that Abrams movies were. 

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1 hour ago, sifth said:

See this is the problem people have with Discovery. It's being advertised by CBS as a Star Trek prequel that takes place in the prime timeline, yet completely ignores the style, look and technology of that era. I mean heck they can't even make the Klingons look like Klingons..............because reasons.

This is why I really like that Prime Deception vid I linked on the previous page.

Simply put, CBS is lying to us. They're saying Discovery takes place is the main timeline of Trek, when it really doesn't. At least that's what this guy seems to believe.

Don't worry deus ex mycelium will bullshit away any continuity errors if need be. Last episode of show can simply have them hop into the prime universe or time travel back and undo all the continuity errors.

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As an aside to earlier conversations, I decided to check out the Orville. I was put off because I'm not a huge fan of Seth McFarlane, then I was kind of put off by vehement protestations by certain fans that Orville is the better Trek, yada, yada. Anyway, I get the appeal and the argument now and can see why people make the comparison.

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If I had any kind of time to spare, I would take a peek at Star Trek Online and see how they try to incorporate Discovery in the canon. They sure as hell avoided it for much of its first season, but now they have to have given it its own little visit. Too bad that the earlier "Agents of Yesteryear" storyline takes place at the exact same time as STD and had the TOS bright cardboard box visuals as its main selling point. I really don't want to be the developers of that game right now, with STD giving them so much of a canon headache. Then again, the screenshots I have seen, especially of "Discovery era ships" (seperate from TOS era ships, mind you), look like they at least visually try to bend it somewhat back to visually pleasing concepts. Or it's just the lighting.

Edited by Toth

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4 hours ago, sifth said:

See this is the problem people have with Discovery. It's being advertised by CBS as a Star Trek prequel that takes place in the prime timeline, yet completely ignores the style, look and technology of that era. I mean heck they can't even make the Klingons look like Klingons..............because reasons.

This is why I really like that Prime Deception vid I linked on the previous page.

Simply put, CBS is lying to us. They're saying Discovery takes place is the main timeline of Trek, when it really doesn't. At least that's what this guy seems to believe.

They aren’t lying, that isn’t really possible. They own the universe, if they say it’s in the same timeline, then it is. If they buy the rights to Spongebob Squarepants, and declare that canon, then we’ve just gotta accept that too. 

It frustrates me no end though. The only way to square it in your head is as a visual reboot; it clearly doesn’t look like it matches up with the rest of Trek, but as far as events and characters go, it isn’t a reboot, it’s a prequel. So visual reboot, not actual reboot. It’s hard to overstate how much this shackles the series though, and unnecessarily so I would say. We know what can and cannot happen to Pike, Spock, Sarek, the Enterprise, the technology of the spore drive, Section 31, the Klingon empire, the Federation as a whole. ST:D has inherited all the negatives of being a prequel, but can’t really use any of the positives without being accused of leaning too hard on TOS material (which it already is).

Which is a shame as they’re showing what a Star Trek series can look like with a modern budget. I think the Ba’ul are one of the most accomplished single-episode species we’ve ever seen, the planet made use of real locations but still felt alien, they have an original predator-prey ecosystem, their ships weren’t anything like any federation ships, or their interiors ... they felt, well, alien. Makes a nice change from the “stick something on their foreheads, give their ships a different front bit and use that same city backdrop we always use” from the TNG era.

Edited by DaveSumm

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1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

They aren’t lying, that isn’t really possible. They own the universe, if they say it’s in the same timeline, then it is. If they buy the rights to Spongebob Squarepants, and declare that canon, then we’ve just gotta accept that too. 

It frustrates me no end though. The only way to square it in your head is as a visual reboot; it clearly doesn’t look like it matches up with the rest of Trek, but as far as events and characters go, it isn’t a reboot, it’s a prequel. So visual reboot, not actual reboot. It’s hard to overstate how much this shackles the series though, and unnecessarily so I would say. We know what can and cannot happen to Pike, Spock, Sarek, the Enterprise, the technology of the spore drive, Section 31, the Klingon empire, the Federation as a whole. ST:D has inherited all the negatives of being a prequel, but can’t really use any of the positives without being accused of leaning too hard on TOS material (which it already is).

Which is a shame as they’re showing what a Star Trek series can look like with a modern budget. I think the Ba’ul are one of the most accomplished single-episode species we’ve ever seen, the planet made use of real locations but still felt alien, they have an original predator-prey ecosystem, their ships weren’t anything like any federation ships, or their interiors ... they felt, well, alien. Makes a nice change from the “stick something on their foreheads, give their ships a different front bit and use that same city backdrop we always use” from the TNG era.

Which again is why I don't understand why they chose to make Discovery a prequel and not a sequel to TNG, DS9 and Voyager. Keep in mind CBS doesn't own the rights to all of Trek, just most of it. If they merge back with Viacom this year it will be a whole other story, and there is a very good change that could happen.

Many of the issues this show has could have easily been fixed with changing the era alone. Not all of the problems mind you; I still think the cast is the weakest in all of Trek, but at least it would explain why everything looks different. I mean if the info in that vid I linked you to can be trusted, everything shown on STD that relates to classic Trek has to look at least 25% different anyway, so why not just cut the middle man out all together and have it set in the future, so there is a reason that everything looks different. I dare say this would make for better cameos as well, because admiral Picard could show up for an episode, maybe ambassador Riker in another and so on and best of all you would't need new actors to play them.

Edited by sifth

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11 hours ago, sifth said:

 

You know Star Trek isn't suppose to take place in our future just a possible future. According to the Star Trek timeline we should be in the middle of WW:III right now, otherwise called The Eugenics Wars. That's how you can always suspend your disbelief with technology not matching up.

Well yeah, if you're going to be pedantic its meant to be a possible future from the Earth at the time the show was create, but beyond that I'm not seeing a meaningful distinction between "our future" and "a possible future" unless you expect anything set in "our future" to be 100% accurate, which would be absurd - that's a prophecy not a show.

If you're expecting a future that remained oddly stagnant in computer and especially software development while still getting advanced starships then I get why you'd be unsatisfied with this, however that's not what I want to I guess that explains a difference in how its received.

Personally I don't think it needs to match up perfectly with the vision of the future from 50 years ago, I'd prefer it to update as the world updates but reconcile it with the actually important plot points. I guess the WW3 thing is hard to dodge though, it kinda invalidates all Trek if you want to view that as concrete. Personally I think you can still update the road that tech travelled without having to necessary address discrepancies like that.

2 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

The only way to square it in your head is as a visual reboot; it clearly doesn’t look like it matches up with the rest of Trek, but as far as events and characters go, it isn’t a reboot, it’s a prequel. So visual reboot, not actual reboot. It’s hard to overstate how much this shackles the series though, and unnecessarily so I would say. We know what can and cannot happen to Pike, Spock, Sarek, the Enterprise, the technology of the spore drive, Section 31, the Klingon empire, the Federation as a whole. ST:D has inherited all the negatives of being a prequel, but can’t really use any of the positives without being accused of leaning too hard on TOS material (which it already is).

I viewed it as a visual reboot from the start, I just don't think that's a problem. I do think the rest of your issues above are valid ones, even if they don't bother me.

Given the above issues I can see why it might have been better to just do a fresh story rather than trying to somehow thread the needle of appealing to both old diehard and new fans while simultaneously trying to sell a massive visual refresh and a different tone.

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1 hour ago, karaddin said:

Well yeah, if you're going to be pedantic its meant to be a possible future from the Earth at the time the show was create, but beyond that I'm not seeing a meaningful distinction between "our future" and "a possible future" unless you expect anything set in "our future" to be 100% accurate, which would be absurd - that's a prophecy not a show.

If you're expecting a future that remained oddly stagnant in computer and especially software development while still getting advanced starships then I get why you'd be unsatisfied with this, however that's not what I want to I guess that explains a difference in how its received.

Personally I don't think it needs to match up perfectly with the vision of the future from 50 years ago, I'd prefer it to update as the world updates but reconcile it with the actually important plot points. I guess the WW3 thing is hard to dodge though, it kinda invalidates all Trek if you want to view that as concrete. Personally I think you can still update the road that tech travelled without having to necessary address discrepancies like that.

I viewed it as a visual reboot from the start, I just don't think that's a problem. I do think the rest of your issues above are valid ones, even if they don't bother me.

Given the above issues I can see why it might have been better to just do a fresh story rather than trying to somehow thread the needle of appealing to both old diehard and new fans while simultaneously trying to sell a massive visual refresh and a different tone.

Then this show shouldn't be a prequel. If you want to set this show in an already established time frame, you need to obey the rules of that time frame. If you want all of this crazy tech that didn't existed in the established time frame, just make it in the future. It's such a simple fix, yet the writers of this show are to stupid to realize this.

Edited by sifth

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The "how it works" of the tech shouldn't be important to maintaining continuity, the "what it does" is though. Nothing they've changed in terms of tech seems a substantial improvement in terms of what it does with the exception of the spore drive, and they absolutely need to explain by the end of the show why it doesn't wind up used at all after this show. Everything else falls within the pre established tech level of that period of ST as far as I can tell, the differences are all style or addressing "how it works". The hologram stuff is different sure, but the "what" being done there is long distance real time communications, the hologram is part of the "how".

Warp speeds all seem to fall within the right ranges and weapons haven't even featured that much but I don't think they're any different? I understand the Klingon ships are probably a different case though. Correct me if I'm wrong and the "what it does" is being shown to be substantially better than it should be at that time period.

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30 minutes ago, karaddin said:

The "how it works" of the tech shouldn't be important to maintaining continuity, the "what it does" is though. Nothing they've changed in terms of tech seems a substantial improvement in terms of what it does with the exception of the spore drive, and they absolutely need to explain by the end of the show why it doesn't wind up used at all after this show. Everything else falls within the pre established tech level of that period of ST as far as I can tell, the differences are all style or addressing "how it works". The hologram stuff is different sure, but the "what" being done there is long distance real time communications, the hologram is part of the "how".

Warp speeds all seem to fall within the right ranges and weapons haven't even featured that much but I don't think they're any different? I understand the Klingon ships are probably a different case though. Correct me if I'm wrong and the "what it does" is being shown to be substantially better than it should be at that time period.

They have a spore drive that can take them literally anywhere in the universe. Do you have any idea how many rules in Trek this breaks, especially for this time period.

Edited by sifth

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22 minutes ago, sifth said:

They have a spore drive that can take them literally anywhere in the universe. Do you have any idea how many rules in Trek this breaks, especially for this time period.

Yeah, but its explicitly a plot problem that clearly has to be addressed. It's not out of continuity with the rest of Trek tech, its a completely different piece of tech. I'm not saying that has to be acceptable to you, but its a different issue to the tech just being too advanced.

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14 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Yeah, but its explicitly a plot problem that clearly has to be addressed. It's not out of continuity with the rest of Trek tech, its a completely different piece of tech. I'm not saying that has to be acceptable to you, but its a different issue to the tech just being too advanced.

It already has been in a way and will again I imagine. I don't know how far you have gotten in season 2 so I will refrain from commenting further.  

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33 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Yeah, but its explicitly a plot problem that clearly has to be addressed. It's not out of continuity with the rest of Trek tech, its a completely different piece of tech. I'm not saying that has to be acceptable to you, but its a different issue to the tech just being too advanced.

You have more confidence in the writers of this show than I do, because I personally don't think they care.

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1 hour ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said:

It already has been in a way and will again I imagine. I don't know how far you have gotten in season 2 so I will refrain from commenting further.  

I'm up to date, its the rare show that actually is available in Aus immediately via legitimate methods and goes up on Netflix ~6pm the night it airs. I'm just saying I expect that either at the end of the show, or some time before it, something will happen that will make it so "it doesnt matter how urgent it is, we cannot ever use the spore drive again" or "the spore drive no longer works" kind of situation. The reasons not to so far can be bent in times of extreme distress or a ruthless imposter like Lorca.

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The Spore Drive has been such a distraction for the entire series, I wish they had never gone there. I spent all last season wondering how they are going to write themselves out of the Spore Drive cage. Why would the federation and the universe forget about an incredibly superior tech that changes everything and go back to some half assed version of it for the rest of time. Its not even like the Spore drive was an afterthought for the writers, it was the fundamental basis for the entire show. 

I feel like they wrote it so that they could do the whole multiple universes thing, which in of itself gives them an out in any difficult writing cul de sac.

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6 hours ago, sifth said:

Then this show shouldn't be a prequel. If you want to set this show in an already established time frame, you need to obey the rules of that time frame. If you want all of this crazy tech that didn't existed in the established time frame, just make it in the future. It's such a simple fix, yet the writers of this show are to stupid to realize this.

I don’t think this is official, more of my own piecing together of the timeline, but: Bryan Fuller wanted to do an anthology show ala Fargo, and wanted to start 10 years before TOS and then move onto other periods; the big gap between TOS and TNG, and maybe post VOY. This is how the production started, but then CBS bottled it and said no, we want a continuing series. Production was too far gone on the whole look of the show by then so the show is now stuck in what was supposed to be a temporary time-frame. Fuller didn’t want it, CBS didn’t want it, the fans didn’t want it. But here we are.

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Ach, give it an episode or two towards the end of the season and they will probably find that the spore drive is causing the dilithium crystals to degrade or something.

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I'm not sure how they are going to do away with the concept of the spore drive, but they need to make it so that no other race can ever discover it or reinvent it. I suspect they will find some sort of moral reason why the federation will stop using it (it hurts the poor spores or something), but that doesn't really explain why it wouldn't be seized upon by everyone else.

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You all say that they'll get rid of the spore drive at the end of the season, but are forgetting that they already got rid of it at the end of season 1........................only to still bring it back again in season 2.

Literally the end of season 1 was, "we're getting rid of the spore drive and the stupid Klingon War and finally doing real Star Trek stuff".................only to bring the dam spore drive back in episode 2 of the next season.

Edited by sifth

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1 minute ago, sifth said:

You all say that they'll get rid of the spore drive at the end of the season, but are forgetting that they already got rid of it at the end of season 1........................only to still bring it back again in season 2.

Literally the end of season 1 was, "we're getting rid of the spore drive and the stupid Klingon War and finally doing real Star Trek stuff".................only to bring the dam spore drive back in episode 2 of the next season.

Yes exactly, because they have written themselves into a corner and a concept like that is not so easy to do away with.

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