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Star Trek Discovery #3 [Spoilers] - It's A Wonderful Spock!

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I don’t think we should diminish people’s feelings about a show that means something to them, tell them life is too short or whatever. If something you love gets spoiled and trampled on by a new movie or tv show, then it’s kind of normal to get upset.

Star Trek means a lot to some people, it has inspired a lot of joy and obsession. Personally I’ve only ever had a passing interest in it, but watching Discovery makes me feel a bit angry at some of the decisions they have made, because they just seem so thoughtless and unnecessary. I would like a Star Trek show that either completely does it’s own thing or shows some level of respect and care for what has already been established. Discovery doesn’t really seem to be doing either , especially if it is meant to be a direct prequel.

 

I mean we are on a board for people who liked a certain book series ( maybe tv series), you are going to see levels of interest and obsession here about that. Go on the tv boards and tell people life is too short to be upset worrying about a tv show. Your cries will fall flat.

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Similarly, "true trek fans" need to leave people who enjoy Discovery alone.

For me, Charmed is a special show. I totally hate the reboot/remake or whatever the new installment is. What I don't do, is try to ruin it for people who do genuinely enjoy it. Same with Game of Thrones. I think the show is pure crap now. I'll complain about it here, especially in rant and rave, where it's essentially an echo chamber. But to dedicate myself to convincing people who enjoy it that's it's pure crap, is something I have no right doing. Leave people alone, is my thing. We can't all love/hate the same things. And we really shouldn't. 

And that's my issue with "true trek fans." The pretentiousness and self importance, no offence meant.

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19 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I don’t think we should diminish people’s feelings about a show that means something to them, tell them life is too short or whatever. If something you love gets spoiled and trampled on by a new movie or tv show, then it’s kind of normal to get upset.

Star Trek means a lot to some people, it has inspired a lot of joy and obsession. Personally I’ve only ever had a passing interest in it, but watching Discovery makes me feel a bit angry at some of the decisions they have made, because they just seem so thoughtless and unnecessary. I would like a Star Trek show that either completely does it’s own thing or shows some level of respect and care for what has already been established. Discovery doesn’t really seem to be doing either , especially if it is meant to be a direct prequel.

 

I mean we are on a board for people who liked a certain book series ( maybe tv series), you are going to see levels of interest and obsession here about that. Go on the tv boards and tell people life is too short to be upset worrying about a tv show. Your cries will fall flat.

Still, like the fan videos suggest they can simply choose to disregard discovery as being part of the canon if it doesn't gel. It doesn't matter how many times the showrunners say otherwise it's pretty simple to disregard (as the evidence is overwhelming if you choose to look). Until they do an episode like "trouble with tribbles" or have Jonathan frakes, Patrick stewart, or any of the cast members from DS9, voyager or enterprise appear in an episode of discovery where the show becomes intrinsic to the franchise a whole it's not really ruining their shows for them. 

The klingons are crap in discovery but it doesn't diminish my enjoyment of the klingon war in DS9. Etc, etc.

The hardcore fans probably need to brace themselves for the Picard show which may bend over backwards to legitimise discovery and may well piss over the future of the trek world.

I wonder how many fans got really upset about next gen back in the day? I bet there were a lot.

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15 minutes ago, red snow said:

I wonder how many fans got really upset about next gen back in the day? I bet there were a lot.

There were. I can’t remember if it was posted here or somewhere, but there’s a brilliant newspaper article about TNG before it aired that completely misunderstands what the show even is, I’ll have a look for it.

EDIT: Here it is, image 2 of 5 if you scroll down. Why they seem convinced Geordi is replacing Spock I don’t know. I guess there wasn’t really a precedent for this kind of thing back then, it wasn’t a spin-off as it didn’t have any of the same characters. People seemed to take the news that it could only be a snub, like it was rebooting the whole thing.

Edited by DaveSumm

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OMG the passionate discussions fans had about TNG were intense, but good natured. Like arguing about sports teams. I was in college and if I went home for the weekend, I had to be back in time to watch TNG in a very crowded dorm room with other Trek fans and people who just wanted to hang out because it seemed like a big thing. It was a social event, and there was lots of discussion. I remember the Picard hate because he wasn't Kirk and he was BALD and he was OLD ewwwwww! Why did they think casting him was a good idea? Data is no Spock! Shut up Wesley! (to be fair, this is still a valid response).

Edited by Gertrude

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3 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

There were. I can’t remember if it was posted here or somewhere, but there’s a brilliant newspaper article about TNG before it aired that completely misunderstands what the show even is, I’ll have a look for it.

EDIT: Here it is, image 2 of 5 if you scroll down. Why they seem convinced Geordi is replacing Spock I don’t know. I guess there wasn’t really a precedent for this kind of thing back then, it wasn’t a spin-off as it didn’t have any of the same characters. People seemed to take the news that it could only be a snub, like it was rebooting the whole thing.

That is pretty funny. Unknown actor! I guess he was at the time. What part of "the next generation" were fans not quite grasping at the time? It's reassuring sometimes to know that social media is the only thing that's changed when it comes to "outrage"

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

OMG the passionate discussions fans had about TNG were intense, but good natured. Like arguing about sports teams. I was in college and if I went home for the weekend, I had to be back in time to watch TNG in a very crowded dorm room with other Trek fans and people who just wanted to hang out because it seemed like a big thing. It was a social event, and there was lots of discussion. I remember the Picard hate because he wasn't Kirk and he was BALD and he was OLD ewwwwww! Why did they think casting him was a good idea? Data is no Spock! Shut up Wesley! (to be fair, this is still a valid response).

I remember thinking Picard was too old and that scary-without-a-beard Riker should have been captain although I wasn't even 10 at the time. I think I got caught up in the more passionate debate of whether Babylon 5 was better than DS9 or not and later realising it didn't really matter as both of them were great.

Still, things set in the future are less likely to really upset fans in terms of continuity as there's nothing in Next gen that contradicts TOS unless someone was picky about the rate of technology being too fast/slow or alien races not being enemies or more/less prominent. There's a lot in Discovery that to be blunt kind of shits on TOS forwards if you're a sensitive type. Mainly the Klingon thing but the tech and general shininess of the show - if I was more hardcore a fan I'm sure the mirror universe doesn't make sense either. I guess Enterprise ran the same risk (I never watched beyond season 1) but they did at least make a nominal effort to be less advanced that TOS with more of a submarine feel and shoddy teleporters and no universal translators (which seems hilarious now as a universal translatoris far more achievable than warp speed and teleportation). But Discovery is set at the same time as TOS (no more than 5 years before) and they have technology beyond even that seen in Voyager! Discovery having handy for an action scene highly mobile attack craft seems like an oversight for the Enterprise not to have - even if there's the handwave of "not a warship"

I hope Pike somehow forgets the spore drive as been sent on a 5 year mission seems a piss-take when that other ship he was in command of could travel anywhere/any dimension instantaneously,

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31 minutes ago, red snow said:

... and no universal translators (which seems hilarious now as a universal translatoris far more achievable than warp speed and teleportation).

haha, funny how we latch onto different things. I actually liked that they needed a language specialist. If I recall, the Vulcans were basically babysitting the humans and helping to guide them, but didn't do their homework for them. How do you build a UT that works with species you don't know exist know exist and have never heard? Earth does know quite a few xeno-languages, but it seems like Hoshi's language ability and algorithm was sufficiently tech/magic to me.

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1 hour ago, red snow said:

That is pretty funny. Unknown actor! I guess he was at the time. What part of "the next generation" were fans not quite grasping at the time? It's reassuring sometimes to know that social media is the only thing that's changed when it comes to "outrage"

I remember thinking Picard was too old and that scary-without-a-beard Riker should have been captain although I wasn't even 10 at the time. I think I got caught up in the more passionate debate of whether Babylon 5 was better than DS9 or not and later realising it didn't really matter as both of them were great.

Still, things set in the future are less likely to really upset fans in terms of continuity as there's nothing in Next gen that contradicts TOS unless someone was picky about the rate of technology being too fast/slow or alien races not being enemies or more/less prominent. There's a lot in Discovery that to be blunt kind of shits on TOS forwards if you're a sensitive type. Mainly the Klingon thing but the tech and general shininess of the show - if I was more hardcore a fan I'm sure the mirror universe doesn't make sense either. I guess Enterprise ran the same risk (I never watched beyond season 1) but they did at least make a nominal effort to be less advanced that TOS with more of a submarine feel and shoddy teleporters and no universal translators (which seems hilarious now as a universal translatoris far more achievable than warp speed and teleportation). But Discovery is set at the same time as TOS (no more than 5 years before) and they have technology beyond even that seen in Voyager! Discovery having handy for an action scene highly mobile attack craft seems like an oversight for the Enterprise not to have - even if there's the handwave of "not a warship"

I hope Pike somehow forgets the spore drive as been sent on a 5 year mission seems a piss-take when that other ship he was in command of could travel anywhere/any dimension instantaneously,

Actually I'm pretty sure the Enterprise of this show is also the most advanced ship of Starfleet, we just haven't seen what it has. And Discovery is a science ship that was outfitted for war. I'm not sure what attack craft you're talking about, the pods they use in season 2's first episode? Also, other than the spore drive, they don't have anything else that is more advanced, just shinier.

My guess is there will eventually be a Starfleet decision to scrap the spore drive, on account of the recent revelations, on what it does to the creatures that live in the mycelial network. I wouldn't be surprised to see a small arc where Section 31 or hostile aliens try to copy the spore drive, but the Discovery crew put a stop to that by destroying all evidence and data.

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1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

Actually I'm pretty sure the Enterprise of this show is also the most advanced ship of Starfleet, we just haven't seen what it has. And Discovery is a science ship that was outfitted for war. I'm not sure what attack craft you're talking about, the pods they use in season 2's first episode? Also, other than the spore drive, they don't have anything else that is more advanced, just shinier.

I think there was a reference in an episode of Number One telling Pike that they had to rip out a bunch of tech to make things work, with Pike telling her -- ok, cut all the holographics and we'll just use the viewscreen.  So whatever problems the Enterprise is having, it's reconning so they can explain the TOS level of tech.

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This show is really weird for me... it's wrought with things that a trekkie should be annoyed at, but its also really good...lol... Sonequa martin Green is simply fantastic... Michelle Yeoh, Anthony Rapp and Anson Mount are all terrific... Saru is the best alien since Quark.... 

I just say to myself that something in the timeline changed in the temporal cold war (Enterprise), Spock now has a sibling we'd never heard of, spores are gasoline, and we're watching a completely different show where they mention Section 31 with their morning coffee...lol

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9 hours ago, red snow said:

I guess Enterprise ran the same risk (I never watched beyond season 1) but they did at least make a nominal effort to be less advanced that TOS with more of a submarine feel and shoddy teleporters and no universal translators (which seems hilarious now as a universal translatoris far more achievable than warp speed and teleportation).

Enterprise’s whole remit was as a prequel, it set out to explore what Starfleet was like before all this technology and how the Federation came to be. Discovery has only been hampered by it, a story of a Klingon War would be unequivocally better if we weren’t constantly asking ‘how are they gonna tie this up with TOS?’, the spore drive would be better, the Red Angel would be better. Discovery exists in spite of its time period, I can’t think of an example where it’s cleared up anything we already knew about it.

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2 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Enterprise’s whole remit was as a prequel, it set out to explore what Starfleet was like before all this technology and how the Federation came to be. Discovery has only been hampered by it, a story of a Klingon War would be unequivocally better if we weren’t constantly asking ‘how are they gonna tie this up with TOS?’, the spore drive would be better, the Red Angel would be better. Discovery exists in spite of its time period, I can’t think of an example where it’s cleared up anything we already knew about it.

The odd thing for me with discovery is that I've yet to see anything (besides recasting old characters) that could not have been set post voyager. The spore drive and klingons would make much more sense in that era and no one would be wringing their wrists over continuity. I'll be honest, michael would work fine without spock as a brother (could easily still keep the vulcan thing) and while it's fun to see Pike it's not a deal breaker. The weird klingons could be due to a new mutated splinter group etc, etc. We'd maybe have to endure a holodeck episode but that's the only downside i can see

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1 hour ago, red snow said:

The odd thing for me with discovery is that I've yet to see anything (besides recasting old characters) that could not have been set post voyager. The spore drive and klingons would make much more sense in that era and no one would be wringing their wrists over continuity. I'll be honest, michael would work fine without spock as a brother (could easily still keep the vulcan thing) and while it's fun to see Pike it's not a deal breaker. The weird klingons could be due to a new mutated splinter group etc, etc. We'd maybe have to endure a holodeck episode but that's the only downside i can see

I've been saying this since day one.

It make no sense, at least to me anyway, why they chose to make this series a prequel and then chose to ignore everything from this time period of Trek. I mean it's like making a show set in the 70's and being fine with everyone using smart phones.

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7 hours ago, sifth said:

I've been saying this since day one.

It make no sense, at least to me anyway, why they chose to make this series a prequel and then chose to ignore everything from this time period of Trek. I mean it's like making a show set in the 70's and being fine with everyone using smart phones.

Nostalgia and cowardice on the part of the creators making the show. I think there's a danger involving people who are known fans of a property as they are possibly scared of creating new ground. Which is funny as they cause more problems doing this. The thinking was also possibly along the lines of "if the show bombs it doesn't derail next next gen shows"

It's also strange when trying to create multiple shows to have them in different timelines. If they'd set discovery post voyager they could have this show, picard and the section 31/mirrorverse all together which I'd imagine makes for a stronger brand. 

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1 hour ago, red snow said:

Nostalgia and cowardice on the part of the creators making the show. I think there's a danger involving people who are known fans of a property as they are possibly scared of creating new ground. Which is funny as they cause more problems doing this. The thinking was also possibly along the lines of "if the show bombs it doesn't derail next next gen shows"

It's also strange when trying to create multiple shows to have them in different timelines. If they'd set discovery post voyager they could have this show, picard and the section 31/mirrorverse all together which I'd imagine makes for a stronger brand. 

It honestly feels like the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing, when it comes to Trek these days. In the 80's, 90's and early 00's this whole franchise was like a well oiled machine, similar to the MCU. Ironically know it wants to be dark and serious................similar to the DCEU, lol

Trek should never be scared to be fun, in it's strange nature, which is the main reason why I've given up on Discovery.

Edited by sifth

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The Red Angel is just Commander Sinclair from Bablyon 5, right?  Oh wait, I mean Babylon 4.

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In case anyone's wondering why the name Talos IV sounds familiar, it's the planet from the original pilot The Cage, the events of which have already happened by Discovery's point in the timeline.

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Oh, is it now? I would never have remembered that. I'll have to check out the mad speculation that I'm sure is happening.

I'm still on the fence about whether I like this season or not. Things happen, but it just seems like it keeps building and there is no point where we get to stop and say - aha! It's a big puzzle and we have a few border pieces hooked together, but the corners aren't anchored and we haven't separated the pieces out by color yet. I want to have a few smaller resolutions rather than a big one at the end that tries to be mind-blowing. Am I being unfair and things are coming together at a good pace?

While I liked the idea of Pike and Ash in the shuttle, I didn't like it overall. maybe I just don't like Ash. I did like the future image Pike had of Ash and how that appeared compared to the reality. That was a nice little bit.

And oh yeah, Spock. yay? 

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I’m doubling down on my Doctor Who comparison: if this was a 90’s Trek then the time vortex thing would’ve been way more clearly defined and explained, it would’ve had a set of rules that they had to work around. Here we just had ‘it’s timey wimey’ and a hundred different rules for how it worked every minute. It’s a pacing thing, they seem set on Discovery constantly going super fast so that every conversation, ever camera move, every bit of plot is going ten to the dozen. 

Talos IV is tricky, Burnham pretty casually set a course for it when the Federation has the death penalty for visiting. Yep, not the Talosians, the Federation. And Pike can’t get involved as we know he doesn’t return there (having visited three years ago) until TOS. 

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