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Will Jon be Dany's heir


Lady Winter Rose

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2 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

If Daenerys ever gets a child i think she would prefer to let this child inherit.

She may need to appoint two "heirs". The titular ruler, and a regent to rule till her child grows up.

Both decisions are up to challenge.

Yes, I´m sure if Daenerys has a live child against hopes, she´s not going to disinherit her own child even if she privately believes it to be a bastard.

Who can she trust as Regent for a baby/toddler who won´t be riding dragons for years?

Also: it is not just Westerosi law that matters here.

She´s coming to Westeros with a big army of aliens.

Unsullied. Dothraki. The shavepates and freedmen who feel unsafe to be left behind at Meereen and prefer to pack up and sail for Westeros with her.

Who will inherit the allegiance of Dany´s aliens? Who are in position to contest for that, with what arguments?

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On 11/10/2018 at 9:44 AM, Lady Winter Rose said:

I'm in team Jon's a Targaryen and his parents are not wed or their marriage isn't recognized. do you think Jon be Dany's heir when she founds about Lyanna & Rhaegar

If it is somehow confirmed that Jon has Targaryen blood it would make sense for Dany to name his child her heir as she can’t have children and it would be the closest thing to another Targaryen that she could get.

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It's possible. But I don't imagine it going that way. It's way too soon to make any claims re the future King/Queen. Jon is (hopefully) warging Ghost. Dany is in the Dothraki Sea in a very compromising situation. SO if/when these two are back to full strength, it's more likely that they'll be focusing entirely on the LN.

I completely understand why people want to discuss who'll be sitting on the IT by book's end. But the IT may not even exist! I'm not saying this is foreshadowed. But if you think about it, there are hundreds of possibilities re the IT. A Targaryen may not reign by the end. We could be left with Cersei. Aegon may never go within spitting distance of the Wall and win it by default. Stannis isn't likely (sad face) but it is technically possible. 

I think the biggest question of the series thus far re Dany & Jon, is what will they actually think of each other? It could go either way. I mean, who will they be by the time they meet? Will Dany still be a Queen of anything? Is Jon alive, is he the Lord Commander of the NW? Does Dany fly in on Drogon's back? Or does Jon approach her? How they meet, and who they meet (this series focus' a lot on identity) is crucial. 

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On 11/10/2018 at 4:45 PM, Sydney Mae said:

There are a lot of problems with this.  First, the elephant in the room.  Jon is dead.  Then there is the question of proof.  Dragon riding is not proof.  Ben Plumm is not in the line of succession even though he has a drop of dragon blood.  The best Jon can say is he has a drop of dragon blood.  The chance of Jon being legitimate is very low.  Rhaegar was thinking passion not succession when he slept with Lyanna.  Jon is also not a good choice for the job.  He can't manage the wall.  The last thing you want is to give him the kingdom.  

Daenerys is not going to claim the throne through some legal technicality.  This is not going to be decided in a modern court of law.  It will be decided on the battlefield.  Why should she step aside for her nephew just because he has a cock?  Aerys cast aside Rhaegar's line and gave the throne to Viserys.  She is the heir and it will be Aegon who will have to prove his identity.  

Jon isn't really dead, or what point is there in giving him a secret royal heritage? Being Rhaegar's son wouldn't matter if he's dead. Jon's death isn't confirmed either. If Cersei's children's parentage was revealed and accepted by the public, then the same can likely be the case for Jon, especially if he successfully mounts a dragon.  While Stannis and Ned had just the physical appearance of Cersei's children to go on, mounting a dragon is generally regarded as proof that one definitely has blood of the dragon, for which the Targaryens are the original source. The Starks have no blood of the dragon as they never intermarried south of the Neck up to when Jon was born minus Lady Blackwood, and no Targaryens, Martells or Velaryons seem to have married into House Stark or any houses north of the Neck, so Jon's blood of the dragon couldn't have come through the Stark line. 

Jon isn't a bastard or the KG wouldn't have been at the ToJ after the fall of KL. LC Hightower's response to why he wasn't on Dragonstone was "We swore a vow." Jaime mentions that same man told him "You swore a vow to guard the king not to judge him." Their vows are first and foremost to guard the king, and that response as to why they weren't on Dragonstone wouldn't have made sense if Jon was a bastard: we're not on Dragonstone to guard the king because we swore a vow to guard the king. Their vows would have had them go to Dragonstone. They didn't need to be at the ToJ, Dayne could simply have had his family send people to look after Lyanna while the KG took a ship to Dragonstone. The only way that response would make sense if is Jon is legitimate, and the royal heir by tradition and succession, especially since in their isolation they didn't hear about Aerys's decree naming Viserys his successor. Rhaegar likely did marry Lyanna given there is precedent for polygamy with Aegon I having two simultaneous wives followed by Maegor I with more. 

Jon's not a good choice for management at the Wall, compared to Dany's handling of Meereen? She had an assassination attempt too, and Jon at least managed to negotiate a peace treaty in his favor while Daenerys's was lopsided against her. Jon isn't perfect, but he isn't any worse than Daenerys. 

Daenerys's claim to the Iron Throne is based through being the rightful heir through the Targaryen line, the original ruling family of Westeros. If Jon is Rhaegar's legitimate son, then his claim through the Targaryen line supersedes her's. If she denies him, then she is no better than Robert when he took her father's throne. I sincerely doubt Daenerys would want to wage war against her own nephew, her last living relative and the child of the brother she worshiped. Aerys didn't cast aside Rhaegar's line, he just named Viserys his heir after Rhaegar died, and Viserys died without issue, meaning the crown would go to Jon by virtue of tradition and precedent. Otherwise, a Great Council would decide. 

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Rhaegar's children lost their place in line when Queen Rhaella crowned Viserys.  Add to this the fact that Robert won the rebellion.   Rhaegar's heirs do not retroactively get their place in line back.  Daenerys as the heir to Viserys is ahead in the line of succession.  But really, who gets the throne will be determined by strength.  The Lannisters are not going to step aside.  And I would be very disappointed if my favorite character, Daenerys, chooses to step aside for Jon.  

And all this is only relevant on the unlikely event that Jon is the son of Rhaegar.  There are many problems with this line of thought.  It is more the desire of Jon's supporters rather than evidence in the text that is driving this.  

 

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10 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Jon isn't really dead, or what point is there in giving him a secret royal heritage? Being Rhaegar's son wouldn't matter if he's dead. Jon's death isn't confirmed either. If Cersei's children's parentage was revealed and accepted by the public,

It was revealed but NOT accepted by public. All sorts of people recognize Cersei´s children as Robert´s whenever the alternative (Stannis...) is inconvenient to their benefit.

10 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

then the same can likely be the case for Jon, especially if he successfully mounts a dragon.  While Stannis and Ned had just the physical appearance of Cersei's children to go on, mounting a dragon is generally regarded as proof that one definitely has blood of the dragon, for which the Targaryens are the original source. The Starks have no blood of the dragon as they never intermarried south of the Neck up to when Jon was born minus Lady Blackwood, and no Targaryens, Martells or Velaryons seem to have married into House Stark or any houses north of the Neck, so Jon's blood of the dragon couldn't have come through the Stark line. 

Jon mounting a dragon would only tend to prove him a dragonseed. Like Hugh, Ulf, Addam and Nettles. Not that he was trueborn.

10 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Jon isn't a bastard or the KG wouldn't have been at the ToJ after the fall of KL. LC Hightower's response to why he wasn't on Dragonstone was "We swore a vow." Jaime mentions that same man told him "You swore a vow to guard the king not to judge him." Their vows are first and foremost to guard the king, and that response as to why they weren't on Dragonstone wouldn't have made sense if Jon was a bastard: we're not on Dragonstone to guard the king because we swore a vow to guard the king. Their vows would have had them go to Dragonstone. They didn't need to be at the ToJ, Dayne could simply have had his family send people to look after Lyanna while the KG took a ship to Dragonstone. The only way that response would make sense if is Jon is legitimate, and the royal heir by tradition and succession, especially since in their isolation they didn't hear about Aerys's decree naming Viserys his successor. Rhaegar likely did marry Lyanna given there is precedent for polygamy with Aegon I having two simultaneous wives followed by Maegor I with more. 

All of which information is in fever dreams of a man since dead. Neither Daenerys, Jon nor public of Westeros are privy to that.

And Maegor´s polygamy was of dubious validity.

10 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Daenerys's claim to the Iron Throne is based through being the rightful heir through the Targaryen line, the original ruling family of Westeros. If Jon is Rhaegar's legitimate son, then his claim through the Targaryen line supersedes her's. If she denies him, then she is no better than Robert when he took her father's throne. I sincerely doubt Daenerys would want to wage war against her own nephew, her last living relative and the child of the brother she worshiped.

And Jon has got used to being a bastard. Plus the vows of Watch.

If Daenerys legitimizes Jon as Rhaegaer´s bastard, and does so with the provision that Rhaegaer´s bastard son goes behind, not ahead of his sister - and her very authority to give Jon any place in succession at all hinges on her staying ahead of Jon - and Jon accepts it, will Jon be eager to trumpet flimsy evidence that he was legitimate and ahead of Daenerys after all?

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8 hours ago, The Pink Letter said:

Rhaegar's children lost their place in line when Queen Rhaella crowned Viserys.  Add to this the fact that Robert won the rebellion.   Rhaegar's heirs do not retroactively get their place in line back.  Daenerys as the heir to Viserys is ahead in the line of succession.  But really, who gets the throne will be determined by strength.  The Lannisters are not going to step aside.  And I would be very disappointed if my favorite character, Daenerys, chooses to step aside for Jon.  

And all this is only relevant on the unlikely event that Jon is the son of Rhaegar.  There are many problems with this line of thought.  It is more the desire of Jon's supporters rather than evidence in the text that is driving this.  

 

All hell broke loose when Jaime assassinated Aerys.  The throne is up for grabs and it is the same situation now as it was right before Aegon's Conquest.  Our girl is Aegon the Conqueror come again so the throne is hers to take.  Gender barrier is not going to stop her.  It never has before.  Else she would have gone to Vaes Dothrak.  

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This thread is operating under a lot of assumptions. Jon finding out about his birth isn't even the question, but convincing anyone else of it. Jon's going to have a hard time explaining that he heard of it from his father's crazy frog eating friend, or from his brother who sees visions in the trees or he totally found a note in his Aunt Lyanna's tomb.

So the idea of Dany believing Jon has a claim to the Targaryen line based on any of these rationales is hard. Also coloring her opinion will be that she'd see him as a threat to her if he really is legitimate. I suspect her treatment of (f)Aegon will be telling towards this. I doubt she'll even consider that anyone out there with a claim on her throne could be the real thing. She's been through too much crap for anyone to take what is hers and to play second string.

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9 hours ago, The Pink Letter said:

Rhaegar's children lost their place in line when Queen Rhaella crowned Viserys.  Add to this the fact that Robert won the rebellion.   Rhaegar's heirs do not retroactively get their place in line back.  Daenerys as the heir to Viserys is ahead in the line of succession.  But really, who gets the throne will be determined by strength.  The Lannisters are not going to step aside.  And I would be very disappointed if my favorite character, Daenerys, chooses to step aside for Jon.  

And all this is only relevant on the unlikely event that Jon is the son of Rhaegar.  There are many problems with this line of thought.  It is more the desire of Jon's supporters rather than evidence in the text that is driving this.  

 

Female Targaryens come after males in the line of succession. Any of Rhaegers sons would come before Dany.

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51 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

This thread is operating under a lot of assumptions. Jon finding out about his birth isn't even the question, but convincing anyone else of it. Jon's going to have a hard time explaining that he heard of it from his father's crazy frog eating friend, or from his brother who sees visions in the trees or he totally found a note in his Aunt Lyanna's tomb.

So the idea of Dany believing Jon has a claim to the Targaryen line based on any of these rationales is hard. Also coloring her opinion will be that she'd see him as a threat to her if he really is legitimate. I suspect her treatment of (f)Aegon will be telling towards this. I doubt she'll even consider that anyone out there with a claim on her throne could be the real thing. She's been through too much crap for anyone to take what is hers and to play second string.

Good points you made.  :agree:

The biggest assumption is the validity of  R+L=J.  

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43 minutes ago, Starkz said:

Female Targaryens come after males in the line of succession. Any of Rhaegers sons would come before Dany.

Daenerys doesn't see it that way.  This story is partly about the empowerment of the women.  Keep in mind that Aerys cast aside Rhaegar when he gave the throne to Viserys.  It became a done deal when Queen Rhaella crowned him King Viserys The Third of His Name.  

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On 11/12/2018 at 12:04 PM, Jaak said:

It was revealed but NOT accepted by public. All sorts of people recognize Cersei´s children as Robert´s whenever the alternative (Stannis...) is inconvenient to their benefit.

Jon mounting a dragon would only tend to prove him a dragonseed. Like Hugh, Ulf, Addam and Nettles. Not that he was trueborn.

All of which information is in fever dreams of a man since dead. Neither Daenerys, Jon nor public of Westeros are privy to that.

And Maegor´s polygamy was of dubious validity.

And Jon has got used to being a bastard. Plus the vows of Watch.

If Daenerys legitimizes Jon as Rhaegaer´s bastard, and does so with the provision that Rhaegaer´s bastard son goes behind, not ahead of his sister - and her very authority to give Jon any place in succession at all hinges on her staying ahead of Jon - and Jon accepts it, will Jon be eager to trumpet flimsy evidence that he was legitimate and ahead of Daenerys after all?

Stannis's claim is at the very least getting increasing public acceptance with Bolton believing it, and even Kevan Lannister. 

The problem with the dragonseed theory is that Jon couldn't have gotten that from the Stark side, and no one knows who his mother is. Howland Reed would likely attest to him as would Wylla and Ashara Dayne if they're alive. I think they are, since if Ashara had jumped off the cliff her body would have been recovered. Her brother was Rhaegar's closest friend, and she personally knew Rhaegar, so her words would carry credibility. 

That meeting at the ToJ did take place as the KG clearly were there and not on Dragonstone long after KL fell where their vows would have required them to go. Ned asking why they weren't on Dragonstone with the remaining royal family and instead with his sister is not an unreasonable question he would have asked. That is evidence that Jon is legitimate. 

As to the validity of Maegor's marriages, they were never invalidated or dissolved, and Rhaegar still has the precedent of Aegon I to go on. 

Jon got used to being a bastard, but that doesn't mean he won't accept the truth. GRRM said that Jon's vows could be absolved by a Great Council. The last Great Council proposed doing the same with Aemon. 

Dany can't legitimize Jon since he isn't a bastard as I have clearly stated. Jon will be recognized as Rhaegar's son, or there is no point to giving him a secret royal heritage if it isn't going to impact the storyline in a significant way. 

On 11/12/2018 at 6:19 PM, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

Daenerys doesn't see it that way.  This story is partly about the empowerment of the women.  Keep in mind that Aerys cast aside Rhaegar when he gave the throne to Viserys.  It became a done deal when Queen Rhaella crowned him King Viserys The Third of His Name.  

That's reaching as far as I know given Dany doesn't know about Jon's existence. I doubt she would side against her late brother's surviving child. 

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Will Jon be Dany's heir?

Hell no.  Jon will be the sacrifice for the third miracle.  He will commit another act of treason and this time he gets his buns burned for good.  There will be no coming back for Jon boy.  Rhaego will be reincarnated as the result of this miracle.

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4 hours ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

Daenerys doesn't see it that way.  This story is partly about the empowerment of the women.  Keep in mind that Aerys cast aside Rhaegar when he gave the throne to Viserys.  It became a done deal when Queen Rhaella crowned him King Viserys The Third of His Name.  

Aerys didn’t “cast aside” Rhaegar. Rhaegar was dead at this point and for some reason Aerys was paranoid about the Dornish and believed they were against him which is why Viserys was named his heir after Rhaegar died. It doesn’t matter how Daenerys sees it. Men come before females in the line of succession. If following Targaryen succession Aegon is the rightful heir to the Throne and leader of House Targaryen.

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The good thing is we'll see how much stock the high lords, Faith and nobles put into Aerys decision of skipping Aegon in the line of succession if and when (f)Aegon takes the Iron Throne. Will anyone cry foul and say but Aerys II disinherited baby Aegon so he cannot be king. I think it will come down to what it has always come down to, might is right and the more Houses and armies that back you the stronger your claim becomes.

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7 hours ago, Starkz said:

Female Targaryens come after males in the line of succession. Any of Rhaegers sons would come before Dany.

Only the legitimate one (Aegon). And that´s not just because male. Rhaenys would also have come before Dany.

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Stannis's claim is at the very least getting increasing public acceptance with Bolton believing it, and even Kevan Lannister.

That´s not "public acceptance". Kevan privately believes it to be true and publicly upholds King Tommen.

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Except that meeting did take place as the KG clearly were there and not on Dragonstone long after KL fell where their vows would have required them to go. 

The fact that Kingsguard died at Tower of Joy has been known for fifteen year. It has had some public explanation.

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As to the validity of Maegor's marriages, they were never invalidated or dissolved, and Rhaegar still has the precedent of Aegon I to go on. 

Were Maegor´s marriages clearly recognized afterwards?

And Rhaegaer was not head of his house. He did not have permission from Aerys.

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GRRM said that Jon's vows could be absolved by a Great Council. The last Great Council proposed doing the same with Aemon. 

Who will be calling Great Council? Who are likely to accept a majority decision against them?

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Dany can't legitimize Jon since he isn't a bastard as I have clearly stated. Jon will be recognized as Rhaegar's son, or there is no point to giving him a secret royal heritage if it isn't going to impact the storyline in a significant way. 

If Daenerys accepts evidence that Jon is Rhaegaer´s son but ignores or rejects any evidence that he´s legitimate then she can legitimize him. Indeed, secret royal heritage as a bastard would be significant.

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It doesn’t matter how Daenerys sees it. Men come before females in the line of succession.

It matters hugely.

Drogon has no idea of law of succession. Unsullied, Dothraki, freedmen and shavepates may understand, but would they care? If Dany wants to fight for her Iron Throne and a safe land for them, are they going to defect to Aegon who does not know them just because Aegon is "right" in Westerosi law? Likely quite some lords in Westeros will be looking for excuses why Aegon does not really come before Daenerys. And maesters in Dany´s service will be helpfully supplying them (Aegon not real... disinherited by Aerys...).

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Jon Snow is only going to become a Targaryen if an actual Targaryen adopts him into the family and accepts this ridiculous cock-and-bull story about his parentage. This is not a fairy-tale. People are not going to suddenly stand at attention when some morons spread the tale of another hidden prince hiding at the Wall or at Winterfell. Not after Cersei's children and the Aegon story.

And a dragon is not going to change that. Hugh and Ulf didn't become Targaryen princes after they claimed Vermithor and Silverwing, nor were they accepted by the royal family or even the nobility as proper power players - only scum gathered around them.

Addam and Alyn of Hull only were legitimized as Velaryons because actual Velaryons (Corlys Velaryon, Jacaerys Velaryon) lobbied on their behalf. But nobody lobbied on behalf of Nettles, Hugh, or Ulf, never mind that they likely had as much - or even more - Targaryen blood as Addam and Alyn.

Jon Snow doesn't even look like a Targaryen, and he'll never have any real proof that he is who whoever tells the story about his parentage to convince men who don't want to believe the story.

The way for Jon to become a Targaryen is by being recognized as a Targaryen by either Aegon or Daenerys. That could also get him the support of the actual Targaryen loyalists in the Realm who - prior to such an event - couldn't care less about supporting a man whose father was crucial in overthrowing the Targaryens.

The example of Cersei's children shows how much power writing letters or spreading stories has - absolutely none. Nobody came to Stannis' side because he claimed Cersei's children were bastards. Nobody will support Jon because people spread a ridiculous fairy-tale about his true parents.

And since we don't know who 'Jon's mother' was in the setting of him being Ned's son she could very well have been some peasant woman who is descended from Aegon IV or one of the other Targaryen cadet branches - from a Plumm, Penrose, Martell, Tarth, etc. Through the female line even the Starks could be descended from some Targaryen bastard. We don't know the entire family tree.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon Snow is only going to become a Targaryen if an actual Targaryen adopts him into the family and accepts this ridiculous cock-and-bull story about his parentage. This is not a fairy-tale. People are not going to suddenly stand at attention when some morons spread the tale of another hidden prince hiding at the Wall or at Winterfell. Not after Cersei's children and the Aegon story.

And a dragon is not going to change that. Hugh and Ulf didn't become Targaryen princes after their claimed Vermithor and Silverwing, nor were they accepted by the royal family or even the nobility as proper power players - only scum gathered around them.

Addam and Alyn of Hull only were legitimized as Velaryons because actual Velaryons (Corlys Velaryon, Jacaerys Velaryon) lobbied on their behalf. But nobody lobbied on behalf of Nettles, Hugh, or Ulf, never mind that they likely had as much - or even more - Targaryen blood as Addam and Alyn.

Jon Snow doesn't even look like a Targaryen, and he'll never have any real proof that he is who whoever tells the story about his parentage to convince men who don't want to believe the story.

The way for Jon to become a Targaryen is by being recognized as a Targaryen by either Aegon or Daenerys. That could also get him the support of the actual Targaryen loyalists in the Realm who - prior to such an event - couldn't care less about supporting a man whose was crucial in overthrowing the Targaryens.

The example of Cersei's children shows how much power writing letters or spreading stories has - absolutely none. Nobody came to Stannis' side because he claimed Cersei's children were bastards. Nobody will support Jon because people spread a ridiculous fairy-tale about his true parents.

And since we don't know who 'Jon's mother' was in the setting of him being Ned's son she could very well have been some peasant woman who is descended from Aegon IV or one of the other Targaryen cadet branches - from a Plumm, Penrose, Martell, Tarth, etc. Through the female line even the Starks could be descended from some Targaryen bastard. We don't know the entire family tree.

Ah, a voice of reason entered the room. 

 :agree:

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