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Lady Winter Rose

Will Jon be Dany's heir

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Back to the original question:

Looking at it from a story-telling perspective I think it likely that Jon will end up Dany's heir. My reasoning:

We know from GRRM's outline that the story was planned to have three parts:

1) War of the five kings in which on the surface of things the Starks get defeated and the Lannisters take the throne

2) Dany's successful invasion of Westeros and her taking the throne

3) White Walker invasion

In other words:

1) Starks (Ice) seem to get destroyed by Lannisters but really are only driven underground to take up their respective hero journeys to learn skills for a later return. Particularly a certain hidden prince survives.

2) Targaryens (Fire) take the throne.

3) Ice attacks. Starks make comeback. Question left open by the outline: resolution of conflict how?

In my considered opinion the reveal of the hidden prince who combines Ice and Fire is the logical final piece of bringing the conflict between Ice and Fire to some sort of resolution in part 3 (Otherwise why include a hidden prince with this particular backstory in the first place?).

Which by definition means that Jon must become Dany's successor in some way. This may mean her literal heir. Or it may just mean heir in a loose sense - the story coming together in some way that makes him succeed her, whether formally acknowleged or not.

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8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

No you've listed actions by Daenarys you find immoral and want to be things impair her ability to grab the throne. All the things you consider bad won't really be seen as such in a country where again where it's not controversial cut off body parts for stealing. No one cares about slavers getting burned and crucified. There will be plenty of slander, and talk of how she's unworthy(she did marry two foreign savages aNS she is a woman) for the throne from her opponents but, the things you've cited aren't going to be seen as persuasive-she burned people with dragons-plenty of Targyens burned people-her doing so, is not like to be seen as controversial in fact what the else would you do with dragons-torturing people for info-that too is acceptable in the seven kingdoms. These aren't going to be seen parallels to Aerys. Plenty of lords use torture and know Targyen monarchs who have dragons often use dragons to burn things

And, no, Aegon does not get to avoid rumors of him being bad-House Baratheon, House Lannister, and House greyjoy do not stand to benefit from him being seen as legit or seen as the one who should be one to hold the throne. 

He is the grandson of Aerys. His relation being slightly more distant to the man doesn't mean people can't manufacture parred where there really aren't.

Glad to see you concede you were wrong in Dorne having already accepted  aegon.. But family connection, and the pale hair and purple eyes were never exclusive to the Targynes-hell some places they are pretty common. Doran has if nothing else to be cautious. It's a real possibility he will be hesitant to throw his support behind whose story, isn't really original-again there have been plenty of secret, princes that have sprouted out through out the years. He doesn't want thousands of his people to die needlessly if the boy is a pretender. 

She'll know nothing other than he looks like the typical boy from Lys. The Targyen look was again not really exclusive to them. And that he can act like nobility.  Aegon has no real proof is in fact Aegon son of Rheagar. He could be. He could easily be another fake. Only Varys can honestly be said to know for sure. He's after all propped up seemingly out of no where. People a would be unwise to to just believe him without question.Doran may buy his story. Though I think its a possible he greets Aegon with suspicion rather than unquestioning acceptance. Daenarys too may buy it. Because she'd want to be true. It'd be nice for the Targyens to be able to continue once she's gone. But Plenty of the great houses won't. Either because they don't stand to benefit and/or they don't buy the story that he is putting forth. Having Daenarys(the person until Aegon appeared who everyone thought was the last Targyen and the Targen to have brought back the dragons), say the boy is an imposter will make those same houses more resolved not to support him and likely cause many of his supporters to start wondering about the fanciful story Aegon is telling. You think Stannis and his followers are going just to bow down for Aegon? That Euron and the ironborn are certianly going to opt for the Aegon rather than  continue to try to go for the woman with the dragons? It's not a given Aegon will be accepted as King. 

And he has the same exact mindset most people trying to rule have. Ned Stark(a genuinely exceptionally honorable and good man), rules with the idea of that being right because of the place he had in his family.   simply isn't shown to be special in regards for his motives for trying to become a king. He himself has of yet to show have done anything  to say he out of people needs to be on throne. Or he is definitely the one who will save the world. Like he's not portrayed in ADWD as being especially heroic. He could be tpwp. Or he could die a lonesome death having never come close to his goal of being king. Don't pretend he has legit been confirmed tpwp. He may be he may not be. but you don't know. You suspect. You believe. But you don't know. 

The things Dany has done will affect how people perceive her and judge her as a person. Dorne will support Aegon and he doesn’t need proof of his parentage everyone around him knows it. Illyrio, Jon Con, Golden Company and Varys are all well known and established people there’s no reason to doubt him. Dany doesn’t even know Aegon is alive there’s no way she can know whether or not he’s fake. If Dany says he is a fake she would be lying and have no proof. Dany cant even have children. No Lord is going to want to follow someone who can’t have a successor. Stannis has his hands full with the North and AoTD same as Jon and the Ironborn will fall in line when they learn Dany cant have any heirs. Rhaeger clearly states that Aegon is TPTWP so I do know.

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28 minutes ago, Starkz said:

Dany cant even have children. No Lord is going to want to follow someone who can’t have a successor. Stannis has his hands full with the North and AoTD same as Jon and the Ironborn will fall in line when they learn Dany cant have any heirs.

Which they won´t. Stated by Mirri Maz Duur in front of which witnesses left alive? Dany never told Hizdahr, on understandable purposes. And she has no reason to tell Westeros. Including the next man who vows his fidelity and his bannermen´s lives on Daenerys producing their common children. It won´t come out before several years of trying, by which time Daenerys is firmly seated on Iron Throne, and he stuck like Androw.

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2 hours ago, Jaak said:

Which they won´t. Stated by Mirri Maz Duur in front of which witnesses left alive? Dany never told Hizdahr, on understandable purposes. And she has no reason to tell Westeros. Including the next man who vows his fidelity and his bannermen´s lives on Daenerys producing their common children. It won´t come out before several years of trying, by which time Daenerys is firmly seated on Iron Throne, and he stuck like Androw.

Dany would then be lying to her people and Westeros by fibbing that she can still have children. Not having a heir will lead to instability and fear amongst her people thus emboldening  people to act out as it often does in history when their is contention for the Throne. Not being able to have a heir is a recipe for disaster and will lead to many problems, one of which being war. Not to mention the fact that dragons life spans are longer than humans so there maybe three dragons, or even more, flying around Westeros for 100+ years to come with no one to control them. This is just another reason why Aegon is a much better candidate for the Throne and why Dany will need him.

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5 hours ago, Starkz said:

The things Dany has done will affect how people perceive her and judge her as a person. Dorne will support Aegon and he doesn’t need proof of his parentage everyone around him knows it. Illyrio, Jon Con, Golden Company and Varys are all well known and established people there’s no reason to doubt him. Dany doesn’t even know Aegon is alive there’s no way she can know whether or not he’s fake. If Dany says he is a fake she would be lying and have no proof. Dany cant even have children. No Lord is going to want to follow someone who can’t have a successor. Stannis has his hands full with the North and AoTD same as Jon and the Ironborn will fall in line when they learn Dany cant have any heirs. Rhaeger clearly states that Aegon is TPTWP so I do know.

yeah things like marrying two forieghn savages.  Not any of the stuff that you listed to which is quite mundane in the country of cutting of body parts for thievery and beating your wife to death for cheating on you  is legal so long as you just hit her six times Dorne might support Aegon.  The Golden company is a company of traitors formed by a man seeking to a pretender on the throne. People know of  Varys. They dont trust the  foreign, eunuch. He is rightfuly seen as a spider. People are not going to put much credence in the word of the spider whose never shown a care for honor. They in general most likely have not heard of  Ilaryio. the guy is a forieghn mercent whose never pronounced even having  ever setting a foot in Westeroes. to any of these men's word meaning anything to the people of Westeroes  is ridiculous. Jon connington word can lend some credence to the idea of young griff being Aegon son of Rheagar being real. Jon connigton was Rheagar's friend. But Daenarys also has an old friend of rhegar backing her, one far more respected: Barsitan and the identiy of being in fact a targyen pricess who brought back the dragons. Peopele know shes legit. They know dont if Aegon is If Daenarys says Aegon is a fraud she can be telling the truth. Or she can be wrong. And you're mistaken again Rheagar never explicityly states again is tptp. Even if he had one point thought that Aegon was the chosen one its likely he changed his mind given he took Lyanna to sire a child on. Its likely that he had thought Jon would the tpwp. Rhaeagar also seemed to think initially he was the tpwp. /clearly he was mistakedn  Euron will probably bugger Aegon before he kneels to the boy.  He wants to rule theseven kingdoms. Youre entire point about Daenarys being barren is completely mute. Thats a tidbit of info only Daenarys knows. Euron and the iron born probably  wont stop seeing getting her had in marriage as a way to being the rulers of the entire kingdom. Even if they see that as a dead that doesn't mean the'll get in line-they have show ifn ot rulers of the realm they would prefer to be their own sovereign nation again and follow the old way.  Its not a given they will accept Aegon. Its not a given all or even most of the provinces will accept this "secret prince" that popped out of no where and who cant even get the recognition of his last living confirmed Tagryen relative. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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1 hour ago, Starkz said:

Dany would then be lying to her people and Westeros by fibbing that she can still have children. Not having a heir will lead to instability and fear amongst her people thus emboldening  people to act out as it often does in history when their is contention for the Throne. Not being able to have a heir is a recipe for disaster and will lead to many problems, one of which being war. Not to mention the fact that dragons life spans are longer than humans so there maybe three dragons, or even more, flying around Westeros for 100+ years to come with no one to control them. This is just another reason why Aegon is a much better candidate for the Throne and why Dany will need him.

Glad to see you concede to being wrong once again. 

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1 hour ago, Starkz said:

Dany would then be lying to her people and Westeros by fibbing that she can still have children. Not having a heir will lead to instability and fear amongst her people thus emboldening  people to act out as it often does in history when their is contention for the Throne. Not being able to have a heir is a recipe for disaster and will lead to many problems, one of which being war. Not to mention the fact that dragons life spans are longer than humans so there maybe three dragons, or even more, flying around Westeros for 100+ years to come with no one to control them. This is just another reason why Aegon is a much better candidate for the Throne and why Dany will need him.

Daenerys will not have to lie about that.  She can simply take the throne and leave the question of succession unanswered in the story.  Her reign can easily last fifty years or more.  

If you want to discuss who should worry first about naming an heir, it's Aegon.  He might name an heir before he even gets nearer than 100 km of King's Landing.  Such a proclamation is worthless unless he has the throne and backed by enough power to make it so.  But he could still do it.  He would most surely name his younger Aunt Daenerys to succeed him.  The will would be equally as worthless as Robb's will until Aegon wins the throne.  Or even if he loses and dies, until Daenerys arrives with her forces and takes the throne by force.  The will just adds to her claim but it's not anything she can't do without.  All I'm saying here, maybe the title should be "Will Daenerys be Aegon's heir?"  The answer is "yes."  Aegon is already in Westeros and he can choose to go ahead and name an heir even before he reaches King's Landing.  He will name Aunt Daenerys Targaryen.  

We can entertain the thread author's rather large assumption and overconfident faith in the validity of R+L=J for the sake of this discussion.  I personally do not buy into R+L=J because it does not make sense to me and I don't want the hypothesis to be true.  But I'll roll with it to continue the discussion.  Aegon is the one who will be most concerned with naming an heir to Westeros.  He is not going to name Jon even if he is his half-brother.  Making Jon legitimate makes him illegitimate.  That's right.  Legitimizing Jon will make him a bastard in the eyes of the majority because polygamy is not accepted by the dominant religion of the country.  Jon is also sworn to the Night's Watch and Aegon would not be a leader worth his salt if he gives Jon a free pass to get out of his vows.  That is not going to go over well in any corner of Westeros.  Aegon is not coming in with a strong force.  He will be vulnerable to political opinion.  He is not going to break the oath of a night's watchman and risk pissing off his allies.  Never you mind that Jon wants an independent north.  That is really going to be a PR disaster.   The disaster will really get even worse when Arya goes on a murder streak and Jon leads the wildlings against the Warden Of The North.  The Starks are attainted rebels and Aegon is not going to take kindly to rebels.  

You talk about instability like Westeros is not already at its most unstable.  Thanks to the Starks, Baratheons, Lannisters, Baelish, Jon Snow, and Greyjoy for putting Westeros in such a sorry state.  Robert's rebellion destroyed the order of succession. 

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12 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

yeah things like marrying two forieghn savages.  Not any of the stuff that you listed to which is quite mundane in the country of cutting of body parts for thievery and beating your wife to death for cheating on you  is legal so long as you just hit her six times Dorne might support Aegon.  The Golden company is a company of traitors formed by a man seeking to a pretender on the throne. People know of  Varys. They dont trust the  foreign, eunuch. He is rightfuly seen as a spider. People are not going to put much credence in the word of the spider whose never shown a care for honor. They in general most likely have not heard of  Ilaryio. the guy is a forieghn mercent whose never pronounced even having  ever setting a foot in Westeroes. to any of these men's word meaning anything to the people of Westeroes  is ridiculous. Jon connington word can lend some credence to the idea of young griff being Aegon son of Rheagar being real. Jon connigton was Rheagar's friend. But Daenarys also has an old friend of rhegar backing her, one far more respected: Barsitan and the identiy of being in fact a targyen pricess who brought back the dragons. Peopele know shes legit. They know dont if Aegon is If Daenarys says Aegon is a fraud she can be telling the truth. Or she can be wrong. And you're mistaken again Rheagar never explicityly states again is tptp. Even if he had one point thought that Aegon was the chosen one its likely he changed his mind given he took Lyanna to sire a child on. Its likely that he had thought Jon would the tpwp. Rhaeagar also seemed to think initially he was the tpwp. /clearly he was mistakedn  Euron will probably bugger Aegon before he kneels to the boy.  He wants to rule theseven kingdoms. Youre entire point about Daenarys being barren is completely mute. Thats a tidbit of info only Daenarys knows. Euron and the iron born probably  wont stop seeing getting her had in marriage as a way to being the rulers of the entire kingdom. Even if they see that as a dead that doesn't mean the'll get in line-they have show ifn ot rulers of the realm they would prefer to be their own sovereign nation again and follow the old way.  Its not a given they will accept Aegon. Its not a given all or even most of the provinces will accept this "secret prince" that popped out of no where and who cant even get the recognition of his last living confirmed Tagryen relative. 

How would Dany know if he’s a fraud? Saying Aegon is a fraud would just be lying. In a vision Rhaegar clearly says Aegon is TPTWP. Rhaeger took Lyanna for the whole “the dragon must have three heads”. Rhaeger has a daughter and a son, he had his version of Aegon the Conquorer and needed one more to complete the triad. Aegon is TPTWP and it’s clearly said. Daenerys not having children isn’t a “mute” thing. It’s one of her biggest problems and that’s saying a lot considering how many she has. A ruler without an heir is a terrible thing to have and will certainly lead to conflict. Euron and others gain nothing by marrying Dany when she can’t have children.

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12 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

 

Glad to see you concede to being wrong once again. 

Nothing I’ve said is “wrong”.

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11 hours ago, Victor Newman said:

Daenerys will not have to lie about that.  She can simply take the throne and leave the question of succession unanswered in the story.  Her reign can easily last fifty years or more.  

If you want to discuss who should worry first about naming an heir, it's Aegon.  He might name an heir before he even gets nearer than 100 km of King's Landing.  Such a proclamation is worthless unless he has the throne and backed by enough power to make it so.  But he could still do it.  He would most surely name his younger Aunt Daenerys to succeed him.  The will would be equally as worthless as Robb's will until Aegon wins the throne.  Or even if he loses and dies, until Daenerys arrives with her forces and takes the throne by force.  The will just adds to her claim but it's not anything she can't do without.  All I'm saying here, maybe the title should be "Will Daenerys be Aegon's heir?"  The answer is "yes."  Aegon is already in Westeros and he can choose to go ahead and name an heir even before he reaches King's Landing.  He will name Aunt Daenerys Targaryen.  

We can entertain the thread author's rather large assumption and overconfident faith in the validity of R+L=J for the sake of this discussion.  I personally do not buy into R+L=J because it does not make sense to me and I don't want the hypothesis to be true.  But I'll roll with it to continue the discussion.  Aegon is the one who will be most concerned with naming an heir to Westeros.  He is not going to name Jon even if he is his half-brother.  Making Jon legitimate makes him illegitimate.  That's right.  Legitimizing Jon will make him a bastard in the eyes of the majority because polygamy is not accepted by the dominant religion of the country.  Jon is also sworn to the Night's Watch and Aegon would not be a leader worth his salt if he gives Jon a free pass to get out of his vows.  That is not going to go over well in any corner of Westeros.  Aegon is not coming in with a strong force.  He will be vulnerable to political opinion.  He is not going to break the oath of a night's watchman and risk pissing off his allies.  Never you mind that Jon wants an independent north.  That is really going to be a PR disaster.   The disaster will really get even worse when Arya goes on a murder streak and Jon leads the wildlings against the Warden Of The North.  The Starks are attainted rebels and Aegon is not going to take kindly to rebels.  

You talk about instability like Westeros is not already at its most unstable.  Thanks to the Starks, Baratheons, Lannisters, Baelish, Jon Snow, and Greyjoy for putting Westeros in such a sorry state.  Robert's rebellion destroyed the order of succession. 

Dany not answering the question of succession is a huge problem as I’ve already said and detailed. Aegon naming Dany his heir makes zero sense. Aegon’s own children will be the heirs why would Aegon make Dany his heir when he can make heirs? That makes no sense what so ever. Aegon will have his hands full in the South while Jon will have his hands full in the North. Aegon will win the Throne while Jon defeats the AoTD. Afterwards the North will be damaged and need help to rebuild and repair which Aegon will then provide in return for the North accepting him as King which Jon will. At this point Jon is already done with his vows. Jon has a higher calling and more important things to do than sit at Castle Black. Jon needs the whole North and he’ll get it with Robb’s Will helping in this matter and then he’ll defeat the AoTD. Furthermore I find you saying Jon and others caused the whole of Westeros to be unstable hilarious, albeit incredibly wrong. Westeros is unstable because of the Lannisters and the Lannisters alone. The Lannisters are responsible for the instability by their failure to lead and their actions. The Greyjoy’s and Baleish are just men who’ve taken advantage of the chaos rooting from the Lannisters. Luckily Aegon will be taking care of them soon.

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1 hour ago, Starkz said:

How would Dany know if he’s a fraud? Saying Aegon is a fraud would just be lying. In a vision Rhaegar clearly says Aegon is TPTWP. Rhaeger took Lyanna for the whole “the dragon must have three heads”. Rhaeger has a daughter and a son, he had his version of Aegon the Conquorer and needed one more to complete the triad. Aegon is TPTWP and it’s clearly said. Daenerys not having children isn’t a “mute” thing. It’s one of her biggest problems and that’s saying a lot considering how many she has. A ruler without an heir is a terrible thing to have and will certainly lead to conflict. Euron and others gain nothing by marrying Dany when she can’t have children.

How would Daenarys know if he's real? She can't know definitely whether or not he is in fact her long lost nephew or a complete fake made up by men who would have their puppet on the throne. Saying he's real if he is a fraud would not mean she lied-she would simply be wrong.  It boils down to what she believes.   Oh I used "mute" instead of moot again. How embarrassing if I cared about such things. Anyway, your assumption of them ditching her for Aegon because she's barren is not likely to come to be. They won't have a way of actually knowing Daenarys is barren for quite a while and even if Aegon is around when they do, they still would likely want their own country. So far as they know they'd a better chance of gaining supremacy over Westeroes with Daenarys now than they do Aegon. Hell, Euron or Victorienfor at least a couple years, would still gain the position of Queen's consort and likely a position in government that gives him an edge should he ever decide to bail-if he would be master of ships he'd have the entire royal fleet at his disposal. 

1 hour ago, Starkz said:

Nothing I’ve said is “wrong”.

Yes, some  of what you said is. You've claimed Dorne has already accepted Aegon. They haven't. You think they will. They very well might. But they haven't as of yet done so. You've claimed no one is remiscing about the Targyens. Plenty are. Some even of mad Aerys. That's why Aegon can be seen as a real candidate for the throne. Because he supposedly is a Targyen. He has no reputation of his own to which would get men to follow him. He's relying on the Targyen loyalists. He's just a boy after all. 

Some of what I've said is wrong-such as claiming Rheagar never said Aegon was tpwp. That was a blunder. It's still not an ironclad fact Aegon(if he is the son of Rheagar) is in fact is however. Rheagar could have been wrong. Hell he thought himself originally tpwp for much of his life. That belief was clearly wrong. If he could get it wrong once there's no good reason to think its impossible for him him to have been wrong in regards to the prophecy once again.   Melisandre may be right and Stannis is the chosen one. Aemon once agreed with Rheagar being tpwp but in end settled on Daenarys being it.   They could all be wrong. It's really presumptive to say in any case however that x character is definitely Tpwp. You still don't know. You suspect. You believe. You could be right and Young griff could be tpwp. Or in the end he may very well not. You don't know

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Can I just point out that there is absolutely no proof whatsoever that Dany can't have children.  None.  Also this idea that the Lords of Weasteros will be even questioning who the successor will be for a FIFTEEN year old Queen is one of the most ridiculous arguments I have ever read.

Edited by El Guapo

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26 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

How would Daenarys know if he's real? She can't know definitely whether or not he is in fact her long lost nephew or a complete fake made up by men who would have their puppet on the throne. Saying he's real if he is a fraud would not mean she lied-she would simply be wrong.  It boils down to what she believes.   Oh I used "mute" instead of moot again. How embarrassing if I cared about such things. Anyway, your assumption of them ditching her for Aegon because she's barren is not likely to come to be . They won't have a way of actually knowing Daenarys is barren for quite a while and even if Aegon is around when they do, they still would likely want their own country. So far as they know they'd a better chance of gaining supremacy over Westeroes with Daenarys now than they do Aegon. Hell, Euron or Victorienfor at least a couple years, would still gain the position of Queen's consort and likely a position in government that gives him an edge should he ever decide to bail-if he would be master of ships he'd have the entire royal fleet at his disposal. 

Yes, some  of what you said is. You've claimed Dorne has already accepted Aegon. They haven't. You think they will. They very well might. But they haven't as of yet done so. You've claimed no one is remiscing about the Targyens. Plenty are. Some even of mad Aerys. That's why Aegon can be seen as a real candidate for the throne. Because he supposedly is a Targyen. He has no reputation of his own to which would get men to follow him. He's relying on the Targyen loyalists. He's just a boy after all. You pretend as though Daenarys' infertility is common knowledge. It isn't. It could be years before anyone thinks as such.

Some of what I've said is wrong-such as claiming Rheagar never said Aegon was tpwp. That was a blunder. It's still not an ironclad fact Aegon(if he is the son of Rheagar) is in fact is however. Rheagar could have been wrong. Hell he thought himself originally tpwp for much of his life. That belief was clearly wrong.   Melisandre may be right and Stannis is the chosen one. Aemon once agreed with Rheagar being tpwp but in end settled on Daenarys being it.   They could all be wrong. It's really presumptive to say in any case however that x character is definitely tpwp. 

I’ve already answered how Dany will know he’s real. Varys and others all vouch for him and Dorne will also. What do you mean they’re not likely to ditch Dany for Aegon? The people of Westeros will follow the rightful King, not Dany. Dany isnt with any of them or have anyone’s loyalty in Westeros. Aegon is the rightful Heir to both House Targaryen and the IT and everyone will know that when they hear he is still alive. Euron and Victarion want Dany so that they can be King, but every King needs children and when they find out Dany can’t provide children for them they’ll seek out other women. “Plenty” of people are not reminiscing over the Targaryens. Some maybe as is expected, but not plenty. Some may wish for better times but plenty of people aren’t wanting a Targaryen on the Throne that’s wrong. It doesn’t matter if Dany’s infertility is known all that matters is she is infertile and eventually people will know that she can’t proivde an heir. Rhaeger clearly states Aegon is TPTWP and he is. All the signs point to it. Lost Prince coming to save Westeros, Rhaeger’s son, rightful King and Rhaeger clearly stating his song of Ice and Fire.

Edited by Starkz

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8 hours ago, Starkz said:

I’ve already answered how Dany will know he’s real. Varys and others all vouch for him and Dorne will also. 

You do realize, she has real reason to distrust most of the people you've listed right? The golden company is a mercenary company whose origin comes from trying to help a pretender usurp House Targaryen  from the iron throne and a company who wouldn't help her and her brother. They themselves for now seem to buy the story of Aegon being legit, but There is no love between her and the company no deep seated trust that would get her to instantly believe them.  Illaryio would have revealed he lied constantly to Viserys and her in regards to his allegiances. He was always fixing to have Aegon on the throne while he pronounced how he was working to seat Viserys on the throne. Daenarys was basicly sold to Drogo to get the army that supposedly would have helped put Viserys on the throne yet it is clear Illaryio planned to do away with her brother and perhaps even her and Drogo(Drogo made clear he would have his son rule westeroes-not kneel).

Varys is a known, liar, oath breaker and gave Robert the information of her pregnancy-something that she for all she knows nearly cost her and her unborn child their lives. 

Doran may vouch for Aegon's identity. Or he could reveal he doesn't totally buy into the story to Daenarys and ask her if the boy claiming to be his nephew really is-he's not eager to spill his people's blood needlessly. And truth be told his word on the matter genuinely would prove nothing-Doran would have literally not learned of the boy’s existence until a short while ago, he wasn’t privy to Varys’ supposed plot. 

The only one who could reasonably be said to  definitely know whether or not Aegon is a fake  is Varys. 

8 hours ago, Starkz said:

What do you mean they’re not likely to ditch Dany for Aegon? 

Here I was speaking specifically in the case of the ironborn, who have shown if they can't rule the entirety of the seven kingdoms they would very much like to succeed. I'll admit my use of the word "them" could have easily been misinterpreted as being referring to the seven kingdoms in general. Pardons that what was a mistake on my part.

8 hours ago, Starkz said:

The people of Westeros will follow the rightful King, not Dany. 

Many may. Many may not. House Lannister, House Baratehon, House Greyjoy do not benefit from Aegon becoming king. Likely plenty of their allies would follow their lead.  And some likely will suspect Aegon to be(like so many of the other “long lost/secret princes” to be a fake.

8 hours ago, Starkz said:

Aegon is the rightful Heir to both House Targaryen and the IT and everyone will know that when they hear he is still alive.

No. Some will believe this not original tale. Some will doubt and suspect. Thinking everyone will just know/think this to be true is ridiculous. 

 

8 hours ago, Starkz said:

Euron and Victarion want Dany so that they can be King, but every King needs children and when they find out Dany can’t provide children for them they’ll seek out other women.

Again years until they actually know what’s up. By that point Aegon would probably been dealt with. They may abandon her eventually after using whatever influence she's given them to hamper the Realm's ability to defend themselves against the might of the ironborn. Still eunlikely they'll submit to Aegon(if he's alive by the time Daenarys is found to be unable to get pregnant-which there's a fair chance he won't be if Daenarys thought him a fraud) They have no reason to think he could offer them anything that could sate them. They want to rule themselves completely. And rule others. 

 

8 hours ago, Starkz said:

“Plenty” of people are not reminiscing over the Targaryens. Some maybe as is expected, but not plenty. Some may wish for better times but plenty of people aren’t wanting a Targaryen on the Throne that’s wrong. It doesn’t matter if Dany’s infertility is known all that matters is she is infertile and eventually people will know that she can’t proivde an heir.

Yeah don't see that.  Ned would have not cited Robert's Targyen heritage for why he in particular must have been king if there wasn't plenty Targyen loyalists  after the rebellion, and Robert himself would not hear talk of him being usurper after a decade since his conquest. Some people do see Aegon as the rightful king. Their logic rests on him being the last Targyen male.  You still haven't conceded you were wrong on some things. It does matter no one else knows Daenerys because it’s pretty unlikely anyone else will find out about it until well after she’s dealt with Aegon. Touting out how she can’t have kids as if that definitely will be big reason people won’t ally with her when she’staking the country is absurd. It.

8 hours ago, Starkz said:

Rhaeger clearly states Aegon is TPTWP and he is. All the signs point to it. Lost Prince coming to save Westeros, Rhaeger’s son, rightful King and Rhaeger clearly stating his song of Ice and Fire.

Rheagar apparently stated at one point he himself was the ptwp. He was evidently wrong. Aegon might be. He in the end is just one possibility. Daenarys might be the one. The details we know of the prospect could easily fit the Journey we’ve seen her take. Born at dragon stone between the salt of the sea and the smoke of the anchestral seat of house Targyen, exiled princess, a red comet happened to appear right after she brought the dragons back from the dead. Oh and Aemond clearly thought in his last moments that she was the one from the prophecy after originally thinking it was Rheagor. Maybe Jon. He could be a long lost prince, he had dreams to where he used a flaming sword. Maybe Stannis he has flaming sword, and he is the only king to have answered the Watch’s call for help and came down, he is the only king we’ve seen actually help the watch get ready to combat the others. Martin has made the Propheces in his story(like real world prophecies), to be vague, and subject to interpretation.  And subject to error on the fact of interpreters and could be wrong about how things play. The Stallion who mounts the world supposedly was Daenerys’ son-she actually sees him in a vision burning a city. Yet little Rhaego died before he could do any of those things. 

You have an interpretation of who it might be. That's perfectly fine. You could be right. All I'm asking you to do is admit there's a real chance that you could be wrong.  

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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On 11/10/2018 at 9:44 AM, Lady Winter Rose said:

I'm in team Jon's a Targaryen and his parents are not wed or their marriage isn't recognized. do you think Jon be Dany's heir when she founds about Lyanna & Rhaegar

I'm in Team Jon Should Die and Remain Dead.  

Dany's queendom is in Essos.  She will fulfill the prophecy of the stallion who will mount the world and unite all of the Dothraki khalasars into one mighty nation.  Only instead of stallion it will be the Dragon Who Will Unite the khalasars into one nation.   Slaves make up the greater portion of the population in most areas of Essos.  They will choose her to lead them.  Volantis will fall to the slave revolution and choose Dany to be their queen.  She will become an empress before the end of tWoW.  Westeros will be a frozen wasteland of walking zombies by then.  

 

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8 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Can I just point out that there is absolutely no proof whatsoever that Dany can't have children.  None.  Also this idea that the Lords of Weasteros will be even questioning who the successor will be for a FIFTEEN year old Queen is one of the most ridiculous arguments I have ever read.

Thank you for your comment.  You brought much needed reason.  I absolutely agree.  

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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

It's the other way about... Jon is the actual heir to the IT. Only he won't care about it and will let Dany have it. Like alms to a beggar. :rofl:

It's debatable whether or not if Rheagar Rheagar did have a second marriage with Lyanna if it even counts. If it was done in front of a Hearth tree I'd say yes. If they got a septon, not really. Young griff may also be real(though I personally don’t see it likely to be true), which in the end places him to be the heir.  And, Jon's oaths removed him from the line succession. He is no more the heir to the Ironthrone now than Samwel Tarley is the heir to House Tarly or Aemon was the heir to the iron throne when he was alive. His plans work best if he's at the head of the watch with the support of a king. No one at the wall whose likely to succeed really is a fan of ideas. I think his decision to refuse Stannis will be looked back on him as more right as time progresses.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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I do think R+L=J its true, i dont think Jon is legitimate, and even if he is i think that WE will be the ones to piece everything together from all the POVs, but that Jon's true parentage will forever remain a mistery for the good people of westeros.

As to whom might be the heir, i dont think it mstters either, Robert took the throne not because he had a drop of Targ blood, but because he claimed it as right of conquest, yeah, his targ ancestry helped cement his claim, but even if he wasnt, there wasn't anyone to oppose him, the same goes to Daenerys or Aegon, Aegon has the advantage because he already landed at westeros, he has more time to make alliances and to rebuild old ones, he has and army and capable commanders and the kingdom its ripe for the taking after TWOT5K.

So he will be the first to make a move for the IT, i dont know if he will take KL or he will focus on isolating the capital, but i do think that Cersei will blow the hell out of KL before handing it to a targaryen, either one..

But i dont think that Daenerys will surrender the throne so fast, perhaps she will marry Aegon, the argument against this is that Daenerys is supposedly barren,therefore Aegon wouldnt marry her since she cant produce an heir. Yet i dont see why Aegon would want to look further than the three dragons she can bring into the fold, a political marriage seems to be the most effective way to consolidate the Targaryens as a faction on the realm, and avoid shedding valyrian blood.. Then again it could be the dance 2.0.

As many in this thread i agree that Daenerys or anyone for that matter has no reason to doubt the legitimacy of Aegon, since he is supported by JonCon former hand under Aerys and friend of Rhaegar

After the two "obvious " targaryen settle their score, then whoever remains will surely name an heir, or produce it,  but i dont see why it should be Jon, since he is a little dead at the moment (i do think he will be back), and he will likely remain that way good part of WOW, even if he is back, he is at the wall, the other two will likely focus south, especially since its winter already, and even if and when they meet , i still think Jon will never know his parentage for sure, and even if he does learns it, coming by proof is a hell of a lot harder than the show make it seems., so the only way I think Jon will put his cheeks on the throne, its the same way Bobby B did, after a bloody war and not wanting it..

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