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Lady Winter Rose

Will Jon be Dany's heir

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On 11/28/2018 at 12:00 AM, Starkz said:

I’ve been saying Aegon.. not Jon. Dany only says she is Viserys heir because all other Targaryens are dead and there is no other option, supposedly. Viserys wouldn’t want Dany to be his heir. Had Rhaegar not died he could of been King. “My theory” of R+L = J I’ve never even said that and Jon’s parentage doesn’t matter. Jon isn’t in contention for the IT or wants it. I’ve been saying Aegon should and will be on the IT.. not Jon.

No, Rhaegar would never have been king.  Aerys disinherited him.  Aerys preferred Viserys over Rhaegar.  Aegon has a chance of being legit but there is also a good chance of him being a Blackfyre.  That would put him behind Daenerys in the line of succession.  Assuming a line of succession even exists.  When the crown passed to Viserys, all of Rhaegar's children, be they Aegon or Jon (there are very good evidence that support they are not his sons) got disinherited.    

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On 12/2/2018 at 1:48 AM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

This.  Good point. 

What we have here in this topic is an OP who is not really speculating but rather writing their own story.  It is ridiculous.  A younger person naming an older person her heir.   

That Starkz isn't the author of this thread and I'm long time not participating in this one.

 

 

EDIT: Just read your post more carefully. Dany is of age as any other person, has dragons & age difference isn't quite big.

Edited by Lady Winter Rose

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2 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

No, Rhaegar would never have been king.  Aerys disinherited him.  Aerys preferred Viserys over Rhaegar.  Aegon has a chance of being legit but there is also a good chance of him being a Blackfyre.  That would put him behind Daenerys in the line of succession.  Assuming a line of succession even exists.  When the crown passed to Viserys, all of Rhaegar's children, be they Aegon or Jon (there are very good evidence that support they are not his sons) got disinherited.    

Blackfyre fAegon would be before Daenerys in the succesion line assuming he can prove his partrilineal line going back to Daemon Blackfyre. 

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6 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

No, Rhaegar would never have been king.  Aerys disinherited him.  Aerys preferred Viserys over Rhaegar.  Aegon has a chance of being legit but there is also a good chance of him being a Blackfyre.  That would put him behind Daenerys in the line of succession.  Assuming a line of succession even exists.  When the crown passed to Viserys, all of Rhaegar's children, be they Aegon or Jon (there are very good evidence that support they are not his sons) got disinherited.    

Rhaeger was never disinherited. I’m not sure where you’re getting that from but Rhaeger never was. Only after his death was Viserys proclaimed Aerys heir.

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17 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

No, Rhaegar would never have been king.  Aerys disinherited him. 

Don't see why Rhaegar would have bothered showing up to fight at the Trident if Aerys had disinherited him. Are you saying Aerys disinherited Rhaegar after he died? IIRC Aerys didn't even disinherit young Rhaenys or baby Aegon, he just named Viserys his heir, placing him ahead of them in the line of succession.

The line of succession could all be moot if (f)Aegon and Daernerys are both unmarried by the time Daenerys gets to Westeros, they should just marry and combine their forces for the good the realm and it's people. Even if Aegon may be a fake he'll still have an army and will most likely be the current ruler of King's Landing if he survives long enough for Dany land in Westeros with her army. 

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21 hours ago, Starkz said:

Rhaeger was never disinherited. I’m not sure where you’re getting that from but Rhaeger never was. Only after his death was Viserys proclaimed Aerys heir.

Here maybe? 

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There is a chance that Rhaegar was actually disinherited - if he and Lyanna didn't went on some silly pleasure while the Realm burned around them but rather ran for their lives from King Aerys II.

This would, of course, entail the fact that Rhaegar was later restored as Heir Apparent after his return to court - but that's not impossible, nor especially unlikely with a man as changeable as mad Aerys.

This is of course no proof that Rhaegar was ever disinherited, but it is not all that unlikely that he was, either. There has to be a (good) explanation as to why a man as dutiful as Rhaegar allowed Aerys and the rebels to tore up the kingdom as much as they had done by the time of his return. And all alternative explanation that have been offered up to this point seem to fail in this task to one degree or the other. Especially those ascribing many and more personal motivations to Aerys or Rhaegar - when what we have been given up this point gives us a pretty solid picture as to why Rhaegar and his father were at odds around the time Lyanna was abducted.

It is strikingly obvious that Aerys II would not have seen the abduction as anything but a confirmation for Rhaegar Targaryen's alleged conspiracy to high treason. And if that's so he would have likely acted accordingly after that.

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GRRM seems fond of succession clusterf***s where characters are given solid reason for doing whatever the hell they want. I always gravitate toward the side of what makes more of a muddy mess than what clears things up in his case. See Robb's will and the accusations of Joff not being a Baratheon as big examples, but there are lots more to be found.

I doubt it will be settled with any certainty, but all of this wouldn't have been brought up repeatedly if it wasn't going to impact the plot and characters' decisions in some way. Those who want to support whomever they wish will cite believing this or not as one of the reasons. And if Aerys did disinherit Rhaegar and it could be strongly proven, the dude was as mad as they get. There's a reason wills start out with declarations of being sound of mind.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

Once safely returned to King's Landing, His Grace refused to leave the Red Keep for any cause and remained a virtual prisoner in his own castle for the next four years, during which time he grew ever more wary of those around him, Tywin Lannister in particular. His suspicions extended even to his own son and heir. Prince Rhaegar, he was convinced, had conspired with Tywin Lannister to have him slain at Duskendale. They had planned to storm the town walls so that Lord Darklyn would put him to death, opening the way for Rhaegar to mount the Iron Throne and marry Lord Tywin's daughter.

When Prince Rhaegar and his new wife chose to take up residence on Dragonstone instead of the Red Keep, rumors flew thick and fast across the Seven Kingdoms. Some claimed that the crown prince was planning to depose his father and seize the Iron Throne for himself, whilst others said that King Aerys meant to disinherit Rhaegar and name Viserys heir in his place. Nor did the birth of King Aerys's first grandchild, a girl named Rhaenys, born on Dragonstone in 280 AC, do aught to reconcile father and son. When Prince Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep to present his daughter to his own mother and father, Queen Rhaella embraced the babe warmly, but King Aerys refused to touch or hold the child and complained that she "smells Dornish."

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

Had any whiff of proof come into their hands to show that Prince Rhaegar was conspiring against his father, King Aerys's loyalists would most certainly have used it to bring about the prince's downfall. Indeed, certain of the king's men had even gone so far as to suggest that Aerys should disinherit his "disloyal" son, and name his younger brother heir to the Iron Throne in his stead. Prince Viserys was but seven years of age, and his eventual ascension would certainly mean a regency, wherein they themselves would rule as regents.

Above all, King Aerys II was suspicious: suspicious of his own son and heir, Prince Rhaegar; suspicious of his host, Lord Whent; suspicious of every lord and knight who had come to Harrenhal to compete...and even more suspicious of those who chose to absent themselves, the most notable of whom was his former Hand, Tywin Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock.

 

Edited by Lollygag

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On 11/25/2018 at 11:29 PM, Starkz said:

Viserys never choose Dany to be his heir which you said he did. Furthermore as I’ve already said Viserys wouldn’t want Dany to be his heir.

Viserys would choose Dany to be his heir over Lyanna's child.  Aerys would choose Dany over Lyanna's child.  The Targaryens and the Starks were enemies.  That is why Aerys burned Rickard and Brandon.  They were traitors.  

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1 hour ago, Geo Da Ray said:

Viserys would choose Dany to be his heir over Lyanna's child.  Aerys would choose Dany over Lyanna's child.  The Targaryens and the Starks were enemies.  That is why Aerys burned Rickard and Brandon.  They were traitors.  

Ok.. that has no relevance to anything I’ve been saying. I’m not advocating for “Lyanna son” on the Throne. The Throne belongs to Aegon, as I’ve said multiple times in several different posts. Why are you making this about some supposed son of Lyanna? Both Viserys and Aerys would choose Aegon over Dany as would Rhaegar himself. Elaborating on who Viserys would pick, if Jon supposedly is Lyanna son when it came down to it Viserys would pick him over his sister whom killed him. That doesn’t matter much however as Aegon will claim the Throne.

Edited by Starkz

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George may never reveal the truth but I am confident that King Aerys disinherited Rhaegar.  Rhaegar's last words before leaving King's Landing showed his intentions to call a Great Council.  No heir in his right mind would have done something like that.  If you are the heir to the throne, the very last thing you want is to put the vote before a Great Council.  Damn, you are already the heir!  Why chance it?  They might decide against you!  This tells me that King Aerys told Rhaegar that he chose Viserys to be his successor.  Rhaegar wanted to try to overturn this decision.  He died, and never got to give it the old college try.  Viserys was the heir and he became King Viserys III with Princess Daenerys as his heir.

Maybe Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna.  Maybe she ran away on her own.  What mattered here is the fact that Rhaegar sheltered her.  A short letter from her, even by her likely poor grammar, to say she ran away on her own might have prevented Brandon from attempting to murder the royal family.  A responsible person would have made her write that letter.  Rhaegar did not.  I would have disinherited that blonde idiot too.

Say there is a chance of R+L=J being true.  Aerys and for sure Varys, would have been on to this.  You are Aerys.  You suspect the Starks and the Baratheons of plotting against you.  The first move you would make is to disinherit your idiot son for causing this mess.  Most important of all, you do not want the grandchild of your enemy to inherit your kingdom.  

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2 minutes ago, The Transporter said:

Damn, you are already the heir!  Why chance it? 

Let’s see... he knew his father w/ a complete nutjob and a danger to himself and others. And that’s including the high lords. If the heads of some major houses got too displeased w/ the king, a rebellion could occur that could even end the Targ dynasty. Oh wait...

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There are clues pointing to Aegon having Targaryen blood.  He is Aegon Mopatis if the father is the magister.  He will be a Blackfyre on his mother's side.  That would put him very far down the line of succession for the throne.  

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20 hours ago, The Transporter said:

George may never reveal the truth but I am confident that King Aerys disinherited Rhaegar.  Rhaegar's last words before leaving King's Landing showed his intentions to call a Great Council.  No heir in his right mind would have done something like that.  If you are the heir to the throne, the very last thing you want is to put the vote before a Great Council.  Damn, you are already the heir!  Why chance it?  They might decide against you!  This tells me that King Aerys told Rhaegar that he chose Viserys to be his successor.  Rhaegar wanted to try to overturn this decision.  He died, and never got to give it the old college try.  Viserys was the heir and he became King Viserys III with Princess Daenerys as his heir.

Maybe Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna.  Maybe she ran away on her own.  What mattered here is the fact that Rhaegar sheltered her.  A short letter from her, even by her likely poor grammar, to say she ran away on her own might have prevented Brandon from attempting to murder the royal family.  A responsible person would have made her write that letter.  Rhaegar did not.  I would have disinherited that blonde idiot too.

Say there is a chance of R+L=J being true.  Aerys and for sure Varys, would have been on to this.  You are Aerys.  You suspect the Starks and the Baratheons of plotting against you.  The first move you would make is to disinherit your idiot son for causing this mess.  Most important of all, you do not want the grandchild of your enemy to inherit your kingdom.  

Agree

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Interviewer: We know that Dany is destined to rule Westeros. But it seems that the Lannisters are in disarray. Who will be her next major adversary? The Others?

GRRM: Ah…well….I don’t know that I know that Dany is destined to rule Westeros. I think that’s something that’s very much going to be explored in the novels to come. Certainly Dany will be returning to Westeros. I think most people can agree on that. But she has a lot of adversaries who may take issue with the assumption of resumed Targaryen rule.

I think OP's question is moot...as GRRM says, she has a lot of adversaries. Dany cant conquer them all and her dragons will always be an albatross. What if the Northerners declare independence again? What if Dorne tells her to fuck off? What if Aegon ruins the Targaryen welcome for her? What if Dany makes a diplomatic misstep and threatens or kills Gendry or Jon? Now she's got a rogue Faceless Man named No One on her ass. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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I'm going to address this question purely from a legal point of view. I'm also assuming that this takes place in a scenario in which Jon is a bastard, fAegon is regarded as legitimate, and that the Targaryens have won the throne back via conquest. I beleive that it would look like this.

First men, Rhoynar and Andal sucession laws: fAegon>Dany>Stannis>Shireen>Jon

Targaryen sucession laws are a bit weird in this scenario though. It says that females are only eligible for the throne if there are no males left in the dynasty. So it would be:

fAegon>Stannis>Shireen>Jon>Dany   Or   fAegon>Dany>Stannis>Shireen>Jon

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3 hours ago, Aurane said:

I'm going to address this question purely from a legal point of view. I'm also assuming that this takes place in a scenario in which Jon is a bastard, fAegon is regarded as legitimate, and that the Targaryens have won the throne back via conquest. I beleive that it would look like this.

First men, Rhoynar and Andal sucession laws: fAegon>Dany>Stannis>Shireen>Jon

Targaryen sucession laws are a bit weird in this scenario though. It says that females are only eligible for the throne if there are no males left in the dynasty. So it would be:

fAegon>Stannis>Shireen>Jon>Dany   Or   fAegon>Dany>Stannis>Shireen>Jon

It’s not as clear cut as that, as Martin explains:

Well, the short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history... which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpertations, and often contradictory.

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So the likely turn of events as I see it at a high level:

1. Aegon takes King's Landing with the aid of Dorne, the Golden Company and supporters in the Stormlands and the Reach. He has maybe 40k-50k men, altogether.

2. Euron ravages the south - primarily the Reach, weakening the Reach further.

4. Dany arrives, and a massive threeway war ensues between her, Aegon and Euron. The order here is a bit murky. I assume that Daenerys emerges triumphant, but not without heavy losses. Possibly losing one or even two of her dragons. Not with both necessarily dying, but maybe one dying and one being taken by Euron/Aegon.

5. By the end, Daenerys emerges as the victor of the "Southron conflict", ruling over a devastated Dorne, Reach and Stormlands. With Greyscale or the Grey Plague ravaging the kingdoms as well, weakening them even further.

6. In the meantime, the North has consolidated under the Starks. Whether that be Rickon, Bran or Jon as Robb's heir, I see Jon leading their forces in practice, even if on behalf of Rickon, with Bran adding his assistance behind the scenes.

7. With Edmure and his heir dead by then, Rickon or Bran at that point is also the legitimate heir to Riverrun through Catelyn as eldest child of Hoster Tully, and thus ruler of the Riverlands. Not to mention that as Robb's heirs they have double claim to the Kingdom of the North and the Riverlands.

8. And I believe at that point Sansa will have taken control of the Vale in some way, adding the allegiance of the Vale forces to the North-Riverlands alliance.

9. Thus we will have a Jon-led Northern alliance of three kingdoms, facing Daenerys as the ruler of the devastated South. With the Others just about to invade in full force.

10. A Great Council will then be called - possibly brokered by Tyrion, where the North and South is brought together. Jon might even agree to submit to Daenerys in exchange for a combined  effort against the Others. At some point his true ancestry - "the central mystery of the series", according to George himself - will emerge, possibly being the key factor that settles the alliance.

11. In the final war against the Others, who knows who will live and die, but one of Jon or Dany will end up on the Throne. I believe it will be Jon as Dany's successor - not so much heir - as he is the true heir before her. But it is in his character to not press that claim against Dany, in exchange for the greater good. He does not seek power in any case. So he will let her have the Throne even though he has the stronger claim. Only for her to die and him getting it in any case in the end.

Anyway, that is more or less how I see it playing out, with lots of unexpected twists and turns along the way.

 

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

But it is in his character to not press that claim against Dany, in exchange for the greater good.

I like most of what you said. However I'm one of those who believes Dany does [insert fire and blood.gif here] that turns everyone against her (like does not respond well to Jon's claim over hers, for example). Jon may think it's for the greater good to stop her from pursuing her claim.

Also I think it's a misconception that Jon doesn't want power. GRRM: "I think there’s something innate within us that we like to have the power to tell people what to do, and we dont want other people to tell us what to do.” He's not well suited to his role as LC because he's just a middle man, and he keeps acting in a larger capacity than that. He doesn't like people telling him what to do. I think he will pursue his claim for that reason and because being the heir is dangerous; other people see you as a threat, even if you sue for peace. 

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