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Question: Do we know Val and Dalla's family tree?


LindsayLohan

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9 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

I am interested, and the awoiaf entries lack history. 

Why is that important?  Just wondering.  Anyway, I doubt they themselves know who their daddies are.  I doubt their mommas know who their daddies are.  The wildlings are not a people to give out birth certificates.  And they most certainly are bastards.  

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Val was given the perfect “warrior princess” treatment and it reads like a stock and stereotypical urban fantasy heroine. Worse, much of her motivation is about an ex-boyfriend which is done to death. GRRM used it with Robert, but put more work into it with him and there’s layers to explore. I just don’t see that with Val. Ygritte, Bowen Marsh, Mance, and Alys Karstark get more thoughtful attention and character development and much more substantial interaction with Jon. I have trouble taking her seriously as GRRM appears to not have taken her seriously either. I'm not expecting any backstory here.

 

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23 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Nope, I'm not even sure we know Val or Dalla's exact ages. A lack of a family tree for them is probably why there are so many wild theories out there about who's Val's parents/grandparents may be. 

One theory being their mother was actually Mors "Crowfood" Umber's daughter Jon mentioned, who was kidnapped by wilding raiders three decades ago. 

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On 11/11/2018 at 5:48 AM, LindsayLohan said:

I am interested, and the awoiaf entries lack history. 

It all depends on how you untie this little knot in the text:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

"Maester is not a name. You could call him Aemon, though."

Gilly thought about that. "Dalla brought him forth during battle, as the swords sang all around her. That should be his name. Aemon Battleborn. Aemon Steelsong."

A name even my lord father might like. A warrior's name. The boy was Mance Rayder's son and Craster's grandson, after all. He had none of Sam's craven blood. "Yes. Call him that."

For this to be true* then either Mance needs to be Craster's son, or Dalla needs to be Craster's daughter.

Well, we know what happens to Craster's sons, and yet Craster's daughters don't exactly 'marry out', either. However, if anyone was able to recognise Val and Dalla as Craster's daughters, then it would be Gilly, as she would have grown up with them. Otherwise all we know of them is that they lived somewhere north of Winterfell, because Mance and Dalla met whilst he was returning from 'seeing Robert'.

 

 

* of course, it might not be true - Sam may be confused, or misinformed, or GRRM may have just had a brain-fart whilst writing that line....

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5 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

For this to be true* then either Mance needs to be Craster's son, or Dalla needs to be Craster's daughter.

Or, Sam is saying that the boy is the actual son of Mance Rayder and, because he is being raised by Gilly who is Craster's daughter, the boy will be something of a Grandson to Craster... But ultimately, he won't be a craven like Sam. Sam is trying to distance himself from the boy as much as he can, trying to see the boy as the sort of son his own father would have wanted, with a warrior's heritage, and not Sam's craven attitude.

The boy isn't literally Craster's grandson, but spiritually, through being raised by Craster's daughter. 

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7 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

It all depends on how you untie this little knot in the text:

For this to be true* then either Mance needs to be Craster's son, or Dalla needs to be Craster's daughter.

Well, we know what happens to Craster's sons, and yet Craster's daughters don't exactly 'marry out', either. However, if anyone was able to recognise Val and Dalla as Craster's daughters, then it would be Gilly, as she would have grown up with them. Otherwise all we know of them is that they lived somewhere north of Winterfell, because Mance and Dalla met whilst he was returning from 'seeing Robert'.

 

 

* of course, it might not be true - Sam may be confused, or misinformed, or GRRM may have just had a brain-fart whilst writing that line....

It might be nothing more than Gilly having adopted the baby, so that makes him Craster's grandson. But maybe not...

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On 11/12/2018 at 9:00 AM, Rufus Snow said:

It all depends on how you untie this little knot in the text:

For this to be true* then either Mance needs to be Craster's son, or Dalla needs to be Craster's daughter.

Well, we know what happens to Craster's sons, and yet Craster's daughters don't exactly 'marry out', either. However, if anyone was able to recognise Val and Dalla as Craster's daughters, then it would be Gilly, as she would have grown up with them. Otherwise all we know of them is that they lived somewhere north of Winterfell, because Mance and Dalla met whilst he was returning from 'seeing Robert'.

 

 

* of course, it might not be true - Sam may be confused, or misinformed, or GRRM may have just had a brain-fart whilst writing that line....

Ooooh. I find this intriguing. I have always wondered about Crasters lineage and how it plays in to the Others coming etc.

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The Craster thing doesn't work for me at all. From a writing perspective, we wouldn't get such a reveal from Sam in an offhand and apparently weightless remark that he found out about at some point in the past off-page with no further comment.

There's also no hints from Jon's or Sam's POVs at Craster's hinting anything like this. Nothing about stories of daughters escaping, nor do any of Craster's daughters resemble either Val or Dalla. If this was true, there'd be clues to find.

At a character level it doesn't work either. Absolutely nothing from Dalla, Val or Gilly acknowledging knowing each other and they're close enough in age that they'd remember each other.

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On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 8:11 AM, Unacosamedarisa said:

Or, Sam is saying that the boy is the actual son of Mance Rayder and, because he is being raised by Gilly who is Craster's daughter, the boy will be something of a Grandson to Craster... But ultimately, he won't be a craven like Sam. Sam is trying to distance himself from the boy as much as he can, trying to see the boy as the sort of son his own father would have wanted, with a warrior's heritage, and not Sam's craven attitude.

The boy isn't literally Craster's grandson, but spiritually, through being raised by Craster's daughter. 

Yea, I think that's probably the best explanation, I've heard.  After all, even if Mance was Craster's son, I don't see how Sam would have possessed this knowledge.

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I don't think we know much about them besides Val was dating that dark haired guy who dies during the wall climb and that she and Dalla are sisters. And we know Dalla died birthing Mance's son. Do we know their ages? 

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Val is a bit of an outlier compared to all the other Free Folk women who'v we seen, and not by being a "Princess Warrior" either, as she's not known as some great fighter. She steals men instead of the other around. She speaks more like a noble born south of the Wall than any other Wildling. She's able to find other wildlings and they follow her when Jon Snow asks her to find them. She's uncommonly beautiful for someone born north of the Wall. She's able to get Ghost to follow her around more than any else that is not Jon Snow. She has an air of mystery about her which is probably why we don't know about too much of her past. I think her character will get more fleshed out in the next book.

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5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Val is a bit of an outlier compared to all the other Free Folk women who'v we seen, and not by being a "Princess Warrior" either, as she's not known as some great fighter. She steals men instead of the other around. She speaks more like a noble born south of the Wall than any other Wildling. She's able to find other wildlings and they follow her when Jon Snow asks her to find them. She's uncommonly beautiful for someone born north of the Wall. She's able to get Ghost to follow her around more than any else that is not Jon Snow. She has an air of mystery about her which is probably why we don't know about too much of her past. I think her character will get more fleshed out in the next book.

Jon was the one who called her a warrior princess which caused my eyes to about roll out of my head. A lot of the wildling women are pretty tough spearwives. Ygritte actually stole Jon though she tried to convince him it was the other way around (he was the maid being pursued, not Ygritte!). The form of speaking has something to do with how intelligent and sophisticated a character is supposed to be perceived. A lot of characters south of the Wall have an unsophisticated speech as well and they’re supposed to be perceived as unintelligent or unworldly or some such. While the books acknowledge regional accents, they’re not written true as it’d be too distracting for the reader. Tyrion makes up a backstory that he’s from Lannisport when in Essos because he says he sounds like a Westlander though we can’t tell the difference as readers. Ghost followed her around because Jon was crushing on her just like Ghost attacked Tyrion when Jon was mad at him but was fine with Tyrion when they worked it out. Mel and Ghost though, that’s something to think about.

A number of characters are mysterious and also fairly well developed. Those aren't mutually exclusive things. Maybe she will get more development in the next book beyond being too perfect especially for this world and this writer , but holy cow there's a lot of ground to make up.

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13 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Jon was the one who called her a warrior princess which caused my eyes to about roll out of my head. A lot of the wildling women are pretty tough spearwives. Ygritte actually stole Jon though she tried to convince him it was the other way around (he was the maid being pursued, not Ygritte!). The form of speaking has something to do with how intelligent and sophisticated a character is supposed to be perceived. A lot of characters south of the Wall have an unsophisticated speech as well and they’re supposed to be perceived as unintelligent or unworldly or some such. While the books acknowledge regional accents, they’re not written true as it’d be too distracting for the reader. Tyrion makes up a backstory that he’s from Lannisport when in Essos because he says he sounds like a Westlander though we can’t tell the difference as readers. Ghost followed her around because Jon was crushing on her just like Ghost attacked Tyrion when Jon was mad at him but was fine with Tyrion when they worked it out. Mel and Ghost though, that’s something to think about.

A number of characters are mysterious and also fairly well developed. Those aren't mutually exclusive things. Maybe she will get more development in the next book beyond being too perfect especially for this world and this writer , but holy cow there's a lot of ground to make up.

Jon wants to put his bacon in Mel's mashed potatoes, homie.  Let's not kid around.  He might be afraid, but he's also a 15 year-old guy, and she is a bonermaker deluxe.  Ghost knows what's up.

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19 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Jon was the one who called her a warrior princess which caused my eyes to about roll out of my head. A lot of the wildling women are pretty tough spearwives.

It makes a bit more sense in the context in which he called her a "warrior princess." He thinks everyone already considers her a princess, so if she has to be a princess she'd be a "warrior princess" as opposed to others typical princesses he knows from songs and stories.

Why not? thought, Jon, They are all convinced she is a princess. Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her. 

19 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Ygritte actually stole Jon though she tried to convince him it was the other way around (he was the maid being pursued, not Ygritte!).

That's debatable as Jon did capture Ygritte first at knife point, while she was the one who pursued Jon sexually after he was captured by the other wildlings. We don't know how Val stole Jarl so it would be hard to compare it to how things went down with Jon and Ygritte. All we know is Ygritte considered herself stolen by Jon under the rules of wildling stealing, while Val maintains she stole Jarl.

19 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The form of speaking has something to do with how intelligent and sophisticated a character is supposed to be perceived. A lot of characters south of the Wall have an unsophisticated speech as well and they’re supposed to be perceived as unintelligent or unworldly or some such. While the books acknowledge regional accents, they’re not written true as it’d be too distracting for the reader. Tyrion makes up a backstory that he’s from Lannisport when in Essos because he says he sounds like a Westlander though we can’t tell the difference as readers.

When I said she speaks more like a noble than any other Wildlings I meant in terms of diction and not accent.  Comparing her dialog to someone like Ygritte for example. No other Wildlings born north of the wall seem to speak as well as her.

19 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Ghost followed her around because Jon was crushing on her just like Ghost attacked Tyrion when Jon was mad at him but was fine with Tyrion when they worked it out. Mel and Ghost though, that’s something to think about.

Yet Ghost didn't follow Ygritte around and Jon even tried to use Ghost as a barrier to keep Ygritte away from him at night so he wouldn't break his vows, right up until they have sex. 

Melisandre is' an interesting case as we know for certain she's capable of using magics and tricks to fool humans, if may be the same for beasts.

19 hours ago, Lollygag said:

A number of characters are mysterious and also fairly well developed. Those aren't mutually exclusive things. Maybe she will get more development in the next book beyond being too perfect especially for this world and this writer , but holy cow there's a lot of ground to make up.

Well Val has only really appeared in two books so far, and didn't have much on page dialog until the last book, so there is definitely time . And as it's been mentioned, wildlings don't seem to keep much records of family. All characters are different so I don't know what other character you could compare her to that is is both mysterious and developed who has a similar amount of page time as Val.  I also don't see her as perfect either and neither does Jon, as we see with his reaction to how Val reacts to Princess Shireen. 

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6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

It makes a bit more sense in the context in which he called her a "warrior princess." He thinks everyone already considers her a princess, so if she has to be a princess she'd be a "warrior princess" as opposed to others typical princesses he knows from songs and stories.

Why not? thought, Jon, They are all convinced she is a princess. Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her. 

That's debatable as Jon did capture Ygritte first at knife point, while she was the one who pursued Jon sexually after he was captured by the other wildlings. We don't know how Val stole Jarl so it would be hard to compare it to how things went down with Jon and Ygritte. All we know is Ygritte considered herself stolen by Jon under the rules of wildling stealing, while Val maintains she stole Jarl. 

When I said she speaks more like a noble than any other Wildlings I meant in terms of diction and not accent.  Comparing her dialog to someone like Ygritte for example. No other Wildlings born north of the wall seem to speak as well as her.

Yet Ghost didn't follow Ygritte around and Jon even tried to use Ghost as a barrier to keep Ygritte away from him at night so he wouldn't break his vows, right up until they have sex. 

Melisandre is' an interesting case as we know for certain she's capable of using magics and tricks to fool humans, if may be the same for beasts.

Well Val has only really appeared in two books so far, and didn't have much on page dialog until the last book, so there is definitely time . And as it's been mentioned, wildlings don't seem to keep much records of family. All characters are different so I don't know what other character you could compare her to that is is both mysterious and developed who has a similar amount of page time as Val.  I also don't see her as perfect either and neither does Jon, as we see with his reaction to how Val reacts to Princess Shireen. 

I meant that Ygritte captured him romantically. Somehow I don't think Ygritte would have considered herself stolen if it had been Stonesnake or somesuch who'd captured her. The young not-ugly (he has all of his teeth!) bastard son of Lord Stark raised at Winterfell and brother of the KitN was to Ygritte like Joff was to Sansa. And he was potentially very useful if one wanted on the other side of the Wall. It's a misconception on this forum that every catuptured/capturee combination becomes married. That would result in some very awkward and unpleasant arrangements especially in a culture that wild. It's not even possible. I'm going to stop thinking about that now. But no, Val doesn't look unusual.

The way she speaks is typical of how characters in general are treated. That's not enough to be interesting characterization compared to the standard of the other characters of this series.

Jon went from resisting Ygritte to completely going at it like bunnies. No in between. Jon is horny as hell in ADWD checking out Val, Mel, Alys and Satin. He was on the prowl hence Ghost prowling. No chase was necessary with Ygritte. And like I said before, that speaks to Jon's feelings/horniness. Not interesting characterization.

Lots to compare Val to who have had little time on page. Even Tycho was given more thought than Val who was just given the straight up stereotypical urban fantasy heroine treatment. There's a long list of characters throughout the series who were given more effort than Val while not having much page time. Compare just Ygritte's first scene with all of Val's content. You don't need a lot of time to build an interesting character.

Adding: Seriously, think about all of the times a wildling captured someone or was captured through the series. They obviously don't always think they're instantly married.

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