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Rhaella+Rhaegar=Daenerys


norwaywolf123

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1 hour ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

I imagine that Rhaegar would've been with Lyanna at the time Daenerys was conceived. 

At the time of Dany's conception, Rhaegar was at Trident. Dany was born 9 months after Rhaella's departure from KL to Dragonstone. Fullterm pregnancy lasts 40 weeks, that's 9 months and 7 more days. If Rhaella's pregnancy was a fullterm one, then Dany was conceived 7 days prior Rhaella's departure.

It takes two weeks of time to travel from Trident (Darry castle) to KL <- Ned going to KL in AGOT. He was escorting Cersei's carriage. If not that, then, probably, it is possible to cover that distance twice faster. So at least minimum 7 days to travel Trident-KL, or KL-Trident.

Rhaella went to Dragonstone, after they have received news about Rhaegar's death. The earliest time of Dany's conception is 7 days prior Rhaella's departure. And Rhaegar left KL at least 7-14 days prior his death. Ned was traveling with a carriage, and Rhaegar was traveling with an army. So it's unlikely, that he and that army managed to cover distance between KL and Trident in just 7 days.

Thus there's NO WAY, that Rhaegar is Dany's father. And this is in case of a fullterm pregnancy. If Rhaella's pregnancy lasted less than 40 weeks, then the conception happened even later than in first case, and thus by the time of Dany's conception, Rhaegar was far away from KL.

So there's also no way, that at the time of Dany's conception, Rhaegar was with Lyanna. Because Lyanna was in Dorne, and Rhaegar was approaching Trident, or halfway there. GRRM said that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany. Thus, at the time of Dany's conception, Lyanna was on last month of her pregnancy. And Rhaegar has left her long before that.

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41 minutes ago, Megorova said:

At the time of Dany's conception, Rhaegar was at Trident. Dany was born 9 months after Rhaella's departure from KL to Dragonstone. Fullterm pregnancy lasts 40 weeks, that's 9 months and 7 more days. If Rhaella's pregnancy was a fullterm one, then Dany was conceived 7 days prior Rhaella's departure.

It takes two weeks of time to travel from Trident (Darry castle) to KL <- Ned going to KL in AGOT. He was escorting Cersei's carriage. If not that, then, probably, it is possible to cover that distance twice faster. So at least minimum 7 days to travel Trident-KL, or KL-Trident.

Rhaella went to Dragonstone, after they have received news about Rhaegar's death. The earliest time of Dany's conception is 7 days prior Rhaella's departure. And Rhaegar left KL at least 7-14 days prior his death. Ned was traveling with a carriage, and Rhaegar was traveling with an army. So it's unlikely, that he and that army managed to cover distance between KL and Trident in just 7 days.

Thus there's NO WAY, that Rhaegar is Dany's father. And this is in case of a fullterm pregnancy. If Rhaella's pregnancy lasted less than 40 weeks, then the conception happened even later than in first case, and thus by the time of Dany's conception, Rhaegar was far away from KL.

So there's also no way, that at the time of Dany's conception, Rhaegar was with Lyanna. Because Lyanna was in Dorne, and Rhaegar was approaching Trident, or halfway there. GRRM said that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany. Thus, at the time of Dany's conception, Lyanna was on last month of her pregnancy. And Rhaegar has left her long before that.

Okay then. 

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14 hours ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

Unlikely.  Rhaegar was already at odd with his parents.  His keister was booted off the line of succession and lost the right to inherit the throne to his younger brother, Prince Viserys.  Besides, Rhaegar was away from the capital when Daenerys was conceived.  

Rhaegar was certainly at odds with his father, but we know of no ill will between mother and son. And no, Viserys is named Aerys's new heir AFTER Rhaegar's death at the Trident. The line of succession is disrupted but not to pass over Rhaegar, but to bypass Aegon's claim in favor of Viserys.

None of which speaks to the OP. Mother and son sexual relations is considered incest even by Targaryen and Valryian customs. We have not so much as a hint this took place.

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6 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Rhaegar was certainly at odds with his father, but we know of no ill will between mother and son. And no, Viserys is named Aerys's new heir AFTER Rhaegar's death at the Trident. The line of succession is disrupted but not to pass over Rhaegar, but to bypass Aegon's claim in favor of Viserys.

None of which speaks to the OP. Mother and son sexual relations is considered incest even by Targaryen and Valryian customs. We have not so much as a hint this took place.

No, I think Aerys already disinherited Rhaegar before the battle at the trident.  But whatever the timeline might be doesn't matter.  Rhaegar was disinherited and the line of succession starts with King Viserys, the third of His Name and His heir, the Princess Daenerys, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Queen of Meereen, and future ruler of Westeros.  

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38 minutes ago, The Pink Letter said:

No, I think Aerys already disinherited Rhaegar before the battle at the trident.

No, it was after. 

Quote

Birds flew and couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King's Landing with Rhaegar's children as a hostage against Dorne.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The End

This is the first time, chronologically, that we're told Viserys was Aerys' heir. Before that, it was only rumours that Aerys meant to disinherit Rhaegar, or that people around Aerys were pushing him to name Viserys his heir. 

As to the theory... there is none. There's no evidence to support it, nothing from the text to suggest it happened, nothing to make us think that Dany is not the product of Aerys raping Rhaella the night he had Chelsted burned. This is just a random idea that someone had, because R+L=J is a thing and some readers think that nothing is as it appears and everything GRRM has written is a lie in some way, and they thought they'd throw it out there so they can make claim to "the next big theory". 

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Rhaegar was likely still in the Crownlands, though not necessarily present in the Red Keep, when Daenerys was conceived, likely the night Aerys had Chelsted burned.

Jonothor Darry, who rode off to the Trident with Rhaegar, was still present in the Red Keep, and guarding Rhaella's door with Jaime, the night Aerys burned Chelsted and "took his pleasure" with Rhaella.

But there is no hint of Targaryens in general practicing incest between parent and child, and no hint of Rhaegar and Rhaella in particular having any such relationship.

The tradition amongst the Targaryens had always been to marry kin to kin. Wedding brother to sister was thought to be ideal. Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew; a boy, a cousin, aunt, or niece. This practice went back to Old Valyria, where it was common amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons. (TWOIAF: Aenys I)

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3 hours ago, The Pink Letter said:

No, I think Aerys already disinherited Rhaegar before the battle at the trident.  But whatever the timeline might be doesn't matter.  Rhaegar was disinherited and the line of succession starts with King Viserys, the third of His Name and His heir, the Princess Daenerys, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Queen of Meereen, and future ruler of Westeros.  

Actually it does matter. Rhaegar was never disinherited. His son was passed over. Aegon is also thought dead by the time Dany is born. That Viserys names her his heir is significant, but if Viserys had known he had a nephew alive, or so Young Griff claims, it might have been different. 

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17 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Actually it does matter. Rhaegar was never disinherited. His son was passed over. Aegon is also thought dead by the time Dany is born. That Viserys names her his heir is significant, but if Viserys had known he had a nephew alive, or so Young Griff claims, it might have been different. 

I agree. Whatever issues Aerys had with Rhaegar and/or his half-Dornish children, they don't seem to be present in the views of Rhaegar that Viserys passed on to Daenerys, through the tales he told her.

Considering how young Viserys was when Rhaegar wed Elia and took up residence at the Red Keep, and how Aerys "protected" Viserys from everyone, I am not sure how much of a relationship Rhaegar and Viserys were able to develop, which is pretty sad.

But Viserys seems to have had, and to have passed on to Daenerys, a very positive view of Rhaegar.

Furthermore, it isn't clear whether or not Viserys was actually aware that Aerys had allegedly passed over Aegon to name him his heir after Rhaegar died.

Daenerys certainly doesn't seem to be aware of that, considering she thinks on more than one occasion that Aegon would have been the sixth of his name had he not been murdered, and that she might have even wed him.

Viserys might have been so used to the idea of Aegon being murdered, and so used to thinking himself king after so many years, that he might have resisted the idea that this boy was Rhaegar's son had the claim been made to him while he lived.

But it's not inconceivable that he might have been able to be persuaded that this boy was Rhaegar's son, and perhaps he would have been willing to make him his heir, even if he might not have been willing to concede the crown to him.

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On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 9:46 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

I can't remember where is read that Daenerys may be the daughter of Rhaegar and Rhaella, can anyone explain the idea?

I've never seen the theory, and don't support it (because eww).  But I think I can vaguely explain.

There a number of "clues" or comments in the series that suggest that Dany takes after Rhaegar more than she takes after Viserys or Aerys.  It is (I think) this, and not merely some private pervy fantasy, that inspired the theory.

Other fans, noticing the same clues, also concluded that Dany was not Aerys' daughter.  This inspired the Rhaegar+Lyanna =Dany theory. Also the Rhaella + Bonifer = Dany theory.

It is reasonable to suspect that something has gone awry.  If Rhaegar, Viserys and Dany are all three the children of Aerys and Rhaella, then they are the products of 2 generations of full-sibling incest.  They ought to be the next best thing to twins; and they also ought to all 3 be sickly and mad.  Viserys fits this pattern.  Rhaegar does not.  Dany, at the very least, is not sickly (fans debate how mad she is).

Why then does Rhaegar not fit the pattern?  Maybe because Ser Bonifer Hasty, the young knight who loved Rhaella, and not Aerys, is the real father.

But if that is so, how could Dany resemble Rhaegar more than Viserys?  She ought to resemble Viserys to a tee.   The infusion of new blood from Bonifer Hasty, breaking the sickly cycle of progressive incest, would have no way of reaching her.  

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3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I agree. Whatever issues Aerys had with Rhaegar and/or his half-Dornish children, they don't seem to be present in the views of Rhaegar that Viserys passed on to Daenerys, through the tales he told her.

Considering how young Viserys was when Rhaegar wed Elia and took up residence at the Red Keep, and how Aerys "protected" Viserys from everyone, I am not sure how much of a relationship Rhaegar and Viserys were able to develop, which is pretty sad.

But Viserys seems to have had, and to have passed on to Daenerys, a very positive view of Rhaegar.

Furthermore, it isn't clear whether or not Viserys was actually aware that Aerys had allegedly passed over Aegon to name him his heir after Rhaegar died.

Daenerys certainly doesn't seem to be aware of that, considering she thinks on more than one occasion that Aegon would have been the sixth of his name had he not been murdered, and that she might have even wed him.

Viserys might have been so used to the idea of Aegon being murdered, and so used to thinking himself king after so many years, that he might have resisted the idea that this boy was Rhaegar's son had the claim been made to him while he lived.

But it's not inconceivable that he might have been able to be persuaded that this boy was Rhaegar's son, and perhaps he would have been willing to make him his heir, even if he might not have been willing to concede the crown to him.

All good points. Let me first say, I think Martin wants ambiguity about which claim is better between Aegon and Dany. I don't think there is any doubt Dany is named Viserys's heir, but the history of Westeros is not without these kind of disputed claims. Does a male nephew come before a sister? I think some would say so. When it comes down to it, Dany may not agree with them even if she believes Young Griff's claim to be Aegon.

The most interesting point here, to me, is the one you raise about Viserys and Dany being possibly unaware of Aegon being passed over. While it maybe true about Dany, I doubt it is true in Viserys's case. Both Rhaella and Ser Willem Darry almost certainly knew. Would they have withheld the information for the young Viserys? I doubt it. They crown Viserys king on Dragonstone and the fact his father explicitly wanted him to be his heir would seem to be something you tell a new king. The reasons why Aerys passed over Aegon may not be something you tell the new king.

By which I mean the belief of Aerys that the Dornish troops betrayed Rhaegar may not be something to focus on when looking for any allies one can find in exile. That's particularly true when Rhaella and Ser Willem think Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys are all dead, and their deaths, and the manner in which they die, all point to the Martells as likely staunch loyalists for a future Targaryen restoration.

Instead, the age of Aegon when Rhaegar dies compared to Viserys would seem a likely point to emphasize. I'm sure that as they crowned Viserys, the idea he was "almost a man grown" was something he was encouraged to believe.

You're right Dany's thoughts about "Aegon the Sixth of his name" might point to her not knowing of Aerys's decree naming Viserys his heir. If Aegon died in King's Landing it is all a minor historical footnote she wasn't told about. With Young Griff's supposed secret identity as Rhaegar's son, it can become a very large point in evaluating competing claims to the throne. It will be interesting to see who tells her, if she doesn't already know.

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5 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

But there is no hint of Targaryens in general practicing incest between parent and child, and no hint of Rhaegar and Rhaella in particular having any such relationship.

It may have happened between Aegon the Unworthy and his potential bastard daughter Jeyne Lothston.

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55 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

All good points. Let me first say, I think Martin wants ambiguity about which claim is better between Aegon and Dany. I don't think there is any doubt Dany is named Viserys's heir, but the history of Westeros is not without these kind of disputed claims. Does a male nephew come before a sister? I think some would say so. When it comes down to it, Dany may not agree with them even if she believes Young Griff's claim to be Aegon.

The most interesting point here, to me, is the one you raise about Viserys and Dany being possibly unaware of Aegon being passed over. While it maybe true about Dany, I doubt it is true in Viserys's case. Both Rhaella and Ser Willem Darry almost certainly knew. Would they have withheld the information for the young Viserys? I doubt it. They crown Viserys king on Dragonstone and the fact his father explicitly wanted him to be his heir would seem to be something you tell a new king. The reasons why Aerys passed over Aegon may not be something you tell the new king.

By which I mean the belief of Aerys that the Dornish troops betrayed Rhaegar may not be something to focus on when looking for any allies one can find in exile. That's particularly true when Rhaella and Ser Willem think Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys are all dead, and their deaths, and the manner in which they die, all point to the Martells as likely staunch loyalists for a future Targaryen restoration.

You're right Dany's thoughts about "Aegon the Sixth of his name" might point to her not knowing of Aerys's decree naming Viserys his heir. If Aegon died in King's Landing it is all a minor historical footnote she wasn't told about. With Young Griff's supposed secret identity as Rhaegar's son, it can become a very large point in evaluating competing claims to the throne. It will be interesting to see who tells her, if she doesn't already know.

@SFDanny

 

I base my suggestion on the fact that Daenerys, who knows everything she knows about her Targaryen family because Viserys told her, appears to have no knowledge of Aerys naming Viserys his heir over Aegon. In Dany's very first chapter, AGOT: Daenerys I, we are informed of how often Viserys had told her stories such as the midnight flight to Dragonstone and the Sack of King's Landing.

And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not. She had never seen this land her brother said was theirs, this realm beyond the narrow sea. These places he talked of, Casterly Rock and the Eyrie, Highgarden and the Vale of Arryn, Dorne and the Isle of Faces, they were just words to her. Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother's womb.

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.

She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible. The Targaryen fleet was smashed while it lay at anchor, and huge stone blocks were ripped from the parapets and sent hurtling into the wild waters of the narrow sea. Her mother had died birthing her, and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her. (AGOT: Daenerys I)

It seems inconceivable to me that, over all those years of telling all those stories, Viserys would have neglected to tell Dany how Aerys had named him heir before shipping him and their mother off to Dragonstone. And it seems highly unlikely to me that Dany would have independently developed the notion of Aegon becoming Aegon VI had he lived, or that Viserys wouldn't have shut down that idea the first time he heard it voiced by Dany (which, why wouldn't she, at some point?).

Assuming Aerys truly did name Viserys his heir after hearing of Rhaegar's death, but before shipping Viserys and Rhaella off with Darry, Dany and Viserys just seem unlikely to me to be aware of it as of 298 AC. And I don't think Rhaella and Darry would have necessarily had good reason to impress that fact upon Viserys, even if they did know.

Viserys would have spent at most a couple or few weeks as the heir, and they would have learned of both the death of King Aerys II and Prince Aegon, so when it came time to crown Viserys king, it would have been with the knowledge that he was the only known Targaryen male left, and not a case where he is being crowned over the still-living son of his elder brother. Perhaps it didn't strike them as necessary or productive to fill Viserys's head with the internal conflicts that had poisoned his father and brother and family against each other before the rebels killed them all.

If Aerys actually named Viserys his heir while Aegon was still alive, I would expect Aerys to have actually told Viserys, and made something of a show of it. In which case, it is difficult to see how Viserys wouldn't have known or remembered, unless for some reason that part did not stick with him. But based on what we have to work with, my impression is that Dany doesn't know, and I don't see why this wouldn't be extremely clear to her if Viserys knew/remembered.

I am sure GRRM has a reason for having Yandel seemingly indicate that Aerys had actually named Viserys his new heir while Aegon was still alive, but it just seems to me a likely possibility that Viserys wasn't told, or for some reason has forgotten, perhaps because of all the trauma.

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On 11/11/2018 at 9:46 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

I can't remember where is read that Daenerys may be the daughter of Rhaegar and Rhaella, can anyone explain the idea?

Rhaegar's obsession with producing a third head.  However, I do not think this is what he had in mind.  He was trying to produce a Visenya and he was going about it backwards.  Unless, and this is something that gets overlooked, he already had a daughter before Rhaenys was born.  Appreciate the difficulty in trying to pull this off.  He had to have two girls and one boy.  He has Rhaenys and Aegon.  The "one more" was probably already born.  It's just a matter of breaking the news to Elia that he has a bastard daughter already.  

Aerys and Rhaella were trying too.  Rhaegar = Rhaenys, Viserys = Visenya.  Daenerys was late in coming and turned out to be the promised prince(ss).  Daenerys = Aegon the Conqueror.  

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33 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

It may have happened between Aegon the Unworthy and his potential bastard daughter Jeyne Lothston.

There is no hint that Aegon IV believed Jeyne to be his daughter, and it isn't even clear how well founded the idea that Jeyne could have been his daughter was.

Quote

LADY FALENA STOKEWORTH, Ten years older than the king

Lady Falena "made him a man" in 149, when Aegon was fourteen. When a Kingsguard found them abed together in 151, his father wed Falena to his master-at-arms, Lucas Lothston, and persuaded the king to name Lothston Lord of Harrenhal in order to remove Falena from court. However, over the next two years, Aegon paid frequent visits to Harrenhal.

Children by Falena Stokeworth: None acknowledged.

Quote

LADY JEYNE LOTHSTON: Daughter of Lady Falena, the king's first mistress, by either Lord Lucas Lothston or the king himself

Jeyne was brought to court by her mother in 178, when she was fourteen. Aegon made Lord Lothston his new Hand, and it was said (but never proved) that he enjoyed mother and daughter together in the same bed. He soon gave Jeyne a pox he'd caught from the whores he'd been seeing after Lady Bethany's execution, and the Lothstons were then all sent from court again.

Children by Jeyne Lothston: None.

According to this information, Falena was sent away in 151 AC, and Aegon paid her frequent visits for the next two years, while Jeyne was born around 164 AC. Not that this means Aegon wasn't still messing around with her over the years, but we don't know whether this claim is based on actual knowledge of them being together around the time Jeyne was conceived, or if it is just a sensational rumor attributing to Aegon something people could have seen him doing.

Anyways, it is possible that Jeyne could have been his daughter, known or unbeknownst to him, but we don't know, and either way, it is no support for the claim, without any basis, that there was anything between Rhaegar and his mother. Parent-child relationships were certainly not a Targaryen or Valyrian practice.

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