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Daendrew

Lollys Stokeworth appreciation post

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Lets hear it for Lollys Stokeworth, Lady of Stokeworth.

What do you like best about her?

Edited by Daendrew

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Her possibilities?

I'm interested in the possibility that she might have been feigning her idiocy. She appears to be one of the few "innocent" characters in the series, which makes her suspect as hell, imho. The Stokeworth sigil is a lamb holding a chalice, for... Pete's... sake. She has her very maculate conception and a dastardly Joseph. It just seems to be a bit too perfect? I've wondered if both her and/or Aegon Frey might have used apparent dimness as a survival technique?

It would be delicious, for example, if she were one of Varys' "little" birds.

Quote

Varys rode on a few paces and said, "It might be that there is another way. As it happens, the maidservant who attends Lady Tanda's daughter has been filching her jewels. Were I to inform Lady Tanda, she would be forced to dismiss the girl at once. And the daughter would require a new maidservant."

...ACoK

Varys might have invented this theft, or learned about it in some other way, but...

Edited by hiemal

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2 hours ago, hiemal said:

Her possibilities?

I'm interested in the possibility that she might have been feigning her idiocy. She appears to be one of the few "innocent" characters in the series, which makes her suspect as hell, imho. The Stokeworth sigil is a lamb holding a chalice, for... Pete's... sake. She has her very maculate conception and a dastardly Joseph. It just seems to be a bit too perfect? I've wondered if both her and/or Aegon Frey might have used apparent dimness as a survival technique?

It would be delicious, for example, if she were one of Varys' "little" birds.

Varys might have invented this theft, or learned about it in some other way, but...

Love this.

 

But I personally think that Lollys doesn't deserve to be disliked. I have a feeling that many characters and readers dislike her, and I think that's unfair. She's "simple", but she does seem like a nice person and doesn't seem to wish anything bad on anyone. She didn't deserve to be raped by 50 men, nor does she deserve to be mistreated.

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3 hours ago, hiemal said:

Her possibilities?

I'm interested in the possibility that she might have been feigning her idiocy. She appears to be one of the few "innocent" characters in the series, which makes her suspect as hell, imho. The Stokeworth sigil is a lamb holding a chalice, for... Pete's... sake. She has her very maculate conception and a dastardly Joseph. It just seems to be a bit too perfect? I've wondered if both her and/or Aegon Frey might have used apparent dimness as a survival technique?

It would be delicious, for example, if she were one of Varys' "little" birds.

Varys might have invented this theft, or learned about it in some other way, but...

Saying she faked her gang rape ay Varys'  command is pretty horrible and you should be ashamed 

 

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I don't think Lollys is faking, but I suspect depression accounts for a large part of her mental state. The gang rape would be devastating to anyone of course, but even before that she was probably the victim of her acid-tongued sister and her pushy mother. She had also failed to win a husband, so she had no secure future. A bastard baby only made a difficult situation worse.

I can't help hoping Bronn will be kind to her. It's not impossible: giving her Falyse's clothes has got to be a good sign, plus it might amuse Bronn to have the people of Castle Stokeworth bowing and scraping to Lollys, someone they probably treated with contempt before. It's not a bad strategic move either - Bronn's claim to Stokeworth depends entirely on Lollys; when they disrespect her, they disrespect him.

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Predictably, I like her symbolic value. Some of the points I find important in the Lollys universe:

1) House Stokeworth controls the food supply for King's Landing. Her House is in a very strategic position and she might hate Cersei, if she figures out who killed her sister.

2) Lollys is now protected by Tyrion's "cat": there are references to Bronn as a feline (panther, maybe?) but he stepped away from Tyrion, allowing Oberyn to step in at the last trial by combat. Now Bronn is protecting Lollys who, I'm sure, Cersei would like to clear out so she could grant Castle Stokeworth to someone in her inner circle.

3) Like the mysterious Joanna Lannister, Lollys has a baby named Tyrion whose biological father is a bit of an unknown. Unlike Joanna, Lollys is still alive. We may get some hints about the life and death (or disappearance) of Joanna if we see more of Lollys in the future.

4) Stokeworths were present when major characters were using the serpentine steps in the Red Keep. Those steps turn out to have important symbolic value in the Game of Thrones and in hatching and riding dragons. I think there is also an anagram involving Lollys hidden in the name of the long gallery, where Sansa and Ser Dontos see Targaryen suits of armor casting shadows that seem to come to life as they pass through the gallery with a torch. As the Battle of the Blackwater begins, Lollys refuses to enter Maegor's Holdfast, which I believe is the symbolic center of the "game" of thrones game board, until Sansa asks her to cross the bridge and enter the building.

All of these little details add up to tell me that Lollys is an important symbolic player in determining who will win the game. "Fools" in ASOIAF are not foolish, in the sense that we use the word; they tend to reveal wise truths that are not recognized or valued by the people around them. I think Lollys is one of these fool characters and that we underestimate her at our own peril.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Saying she faked her gang rape ay Varys'  command is pretty horrible and you should be ashamed 

 

I can't be sure if you are serious but I never said or implied anything of the sort. I am saying that if someone were exaggerating her simple-mindedness she could be a useful tool for the Spider.

Quote

I hear all sorts of things as a fool that I never heard when I was a knight. They talk as though I am not there, and"—he leaned close, breathing his winey breath right in her face—"the Spider pays in gold for any little trifle. I think Moon Boy has been his for years."

...ACoK

Why would Varys want to fake her rape?

The whole big Tyrion/little tyrion thing with Tysha's similar violation falls apart in that scenario and I don't really see any reason for it or behind it unless you think Lollys has something to do with Tyrek's disappearance?

 

 

Edited by hiemal

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2 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I can't be sure if you are serious but I never said or implied anything of the sort. I am saying that if someone were exaggerating her simple-mindedness she could be a useful tool for the Spider.

Why would Varys want to fake her gang-rape?

You said her "maculate conception" was "too perfect" then  you insinuated she works for Varys. Own this shit if you are going to write shit like this 

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

Predictably, I like her symbolic value. Some of the points I find important in the Lollys universe:

1) House Stokeworth controls the food supply for King's Landing. Her House is in a very strategic position and she might hate Cersei, if she figures out who killed her sister.

2) Lollys is now protected by Tyrion's "cat": there are references to Bronn as a feline (panther, maybe?) but he stepped away from Tyrion, allowing Oberyn to step in at the last trial by combat. Now Bronn is protecting Lollys who, I'm sure, Cersei would like to clear out so she could grant Castle Stokeworth to someone in her inner circle.

3) Like the mysterious Joanna Lannister, Lollys has a baby named Tyrion whose biological father is a bit of an unknown. Unlike Joanna, Lollys is still alive. We may get some hints about the life and death (or disappearance) of Joanna if we see more of Lollys in the future.

4) Stokeworths were present when major characters were using the serpentine steps in the Red Keep. Those steps turn out to have important symbolic value in the Game of Thrones and in hatching and riding dragons. I think there is also an anagram involving Lollys hidden in the name of the long gallery, where Sansa and Ser Dontos see Targaryen suits of armor casting shadows that seem to come to life as they pass through the gallery with a torch. As the Battle of the Blackwater begins, Lollys refuses to enter Maegor's Holdfast, which I believe is the symbolic center of the "game" of thrones game board, until Sansa asks her to cross the bridge and enter the building.

All of these little details add up to tell me that Lollys is an important symbolic player in determining who will win the game. "Fools" in ASOIAF are not foolish, in the sense that we use the word; they tend to reveal wise truths that are not recognized or valued by the people around them. I think Lollys is one of these fool characters and that we underestimate her at our own peril.

 

 

Brilliant observations as always Seams.

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1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

You said her "maculate conception" was "too perfect"

In conjunction with the imagery of a chalice, a lamb, and a lion. You are missing the point.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

 then you insinuated she works for Varys.

I said I thought it would be awesome if she did. As I also pointed out there are other reasons Varys might have known about the "stolen" jewelry.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

 Own this shit if you are going to write shit like this 

I only own what I write; what you read into it beyond that is all yours.

Edited by hiemal

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3 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

I've always wondered why they didn't dose her liberally with moon tea after the rape.

Apparently the Stokeworths had major fertility issues, like much worse than Jon Arryn or Stannis & Selyse. Having a daughter who finally was actually pregnant (and the baby could always be legitimized) was more important than the violence of its parentage and the lowborne "fathers". Moreover, as luck would have it, the rape baby was a boy - the most prized possible outcome. So nixing the moon tea paid off for the family. (Of course Lollys may not have agreed, but when is the woman - any woman - consulted?)

Why is Lollys "hated"? Well, she's described as overweight. That's a killer for a woman, particularly in these United States. Also "simple", which is what used to be called "mentally retarded." Consensus is now (at last) that this should be no cause for discrimination, but we still use "moron" and "idiot" and "stupid" as insults, don't we?

My thought is that wily Bronn will try to get his own son off her, and when (if) he succeeds, both mother and Little Tyrion will have fatal accidents. Bronn loves Stokeworth Castle and his titles. Period.

Edited by zandru

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16 hours ago, zandru said:

Why is Lollys "hated"? Well, she's described as overweight. That's a killer for a woman, particularly in these United States. Also "simple", which is what used to be called "mentally retarded." Consensus is now (at last) that this should be no cause for discrimination, but we still use "moron" and "idiot" and "stupid" as insults, don't we?

Is Lollys hated? This seems like an excuse for a diatribe whether or not anything you said after is true.

Edited by Valyrian Lance

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4 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

Is Lollys hated? This seems like an excuse for a diatribe whether or not anything you said after is true.

I'm referring to how she's spoken of in other threads, which you may not have read yet. There were some pretty disrespectful references here, too, which I took as indicating either a dislike of Lollys or just generalized misogyny (which appears to be endemic to many fantasy readers, by the way.)

Sorry you didn't like my "diatribe." You're not required to, and I didn't have any particular intent to gore your particular ox, whatever it may be. Disbelieve whatever you like, too; many of these threads disintegrate into people who read the same words but believe they saw different things, all howling madly at each other about how the other is WRONG. (shrug)

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I always got the feeling most of the courts negative opinions of Lollys stemmed from the fact that interacting with Lollys involved interacting with her family.

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On 11/11/2018 at 8:22 PM, Byfort of Corfe said:

I've always wondered why they didn't dose her liberally with moon tea after the rape.

Me too!! There has to be more to it...

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On 11/12/2018 at 8:04 PM, Platypus Rex said:

She's really Varys in disguise.  Either that, or Varys is Lollys in disguise.  

Interesting, I was just on the chapter today in A Storm of Swords when Tyrion goes to meet Shae and Varys is there dressed as a fat woman and Tyrion's thoughts are that Varys has brought him Lollys instead of Shae.

There's also a quote from Ser Dontos when he's talking about all the big players spying on each other and says "no one ever troubles themselves about Lady Tanda's daughter, do they?"

I think there's some big hints there.

Edited by Stuart Littlefinger

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I love it that minor characters have this three-dimensional quality, hinting at motives and backstory of their own, but I don't suppose any of this will ever be spelt out. (And if it ever was spelt out, that sense of depth would be lost...)

I'm totally certain that the prime purpose of minor characters is to shadow and foreshadow major characters - and when that job is done, the minor character can just disappear.

Given the way the story is developing, my prediction is that the lackwits, the hollow knights and the 'empty' characters foreshadow wights - and it's likely the Lollys wight is a creature of significant powers:

  • the endless tears already translate to endless poison, the women's weapon
  • over-eating is formidable in terms of the food codes (remember them?)
  • over-sleeping would also be formidable in the style of Bloodraven: a pale lord in ebon finery sat dreaming in a tangled nest of roots. I predict we'll see a lot of this.

Lollys herself has served her purpose, and can retire to a life of bliss with Bronn. Good luck to her.

One last thing: I like her name too (names are my current favourite thing) - the lackwit Lady Lollys, with her lamb and chalice. All the L's. Lovely. :)

Edited by Springwatch
Repeated word

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