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Angel Eyes

Why marry Sansa to Tyrion in particular?

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So when Tywin got wind of the Tyrells’ plot to marry Sansa to Willas, why did he choose Tyrion as Sansa’s Lannister husband? Surely another member of the family would have served the role. And since Tywin views Tyrion as an embarrassment because of his dwarfism, surely he wouldn’t want Tyrion’s condition to spread, per se? Did he intentionally give Sansa to Tyrion as a means of humiliating her, because she wouldn’t want to be married to a Lannister, whose family executed her father and spawn (Joffrey) had her beaten and humiliated, much less Tyrion, who had a reputation for debauchery and perversion, which didn’t fit into Sansa’s vision of a brave, gentle and strong husband? Tywin certainly isn’t above abusive and petty tactics, just ask Tysha.

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32 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So when Tywin got wind of the Tyrells’ plot to marry Sansa to Willas, why did he choose Tyrion as Sansa’s Lannister husband?

He promised to reward Tyrion, it  was about time he was married and the other possibility, Lancel, was not healthy. 

32 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

 

Surely another member of the family would have served the role.

Lancel, as far as we know, was the only other senior member of the family in the capital. Tyrion was the best option.

32 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

And since Tywin views Tyrion as an embarrassment because of his dwarfism,

Not really, or more accurately not as much as is said in the fandom. Embarrassments are kept out of the spotlight, either kept at home away or sent far, far away out of the public eye. 

Tywin viewed Tyrion as a Lannister first and foremost, which made him, at the very least, the equal of any other noble. 

Sansa was not the first high profile noble Tywin had tried to match Tyrion with, Tywin was happy to fund Tyrion's playboy lifestyle hanging around the royal party, happy to make him the Hand and Master of Coin. These are not the actions of someone who was embarrassed with his son being a dwarf.  Had he been Tyrion would have actually been allowed to go to Essos and kept away from Westeros (or worse, Tywin could have plied him with so much milk of the poppy as a child that he'd never be able to leave, instead Tyrion was given an education that made him one of the smartest of his generation).   

32 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

surely he wouldn’t want Tyrion’s condition to spread, per se?

I think both father and son are under the assumption that Tyrion was a one off. 

32 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

 

Did he intentionally give Sansa to Tyrion as a means of humiliating her, because she wouldn’t want to be married to a Lannister,

No, that is ridiculous. Sansa is the heiress of the North, she and her children are hugely valuable, them being cousins to the Baratheons of Kings Landing and the Lannisters of the Rock brings unity for Tywin's descendents. These type of marriages were far more common in the middle ages. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

So when Tywin got wind of the Tyrells’ plot to marry Sansa to Willas, why did he choose Tyrion as Sansa’s Lannister husband? Surely another member of the family would have served the role. And since Tywin views Tyrion as an embarrassment because of his dwarfism, surely he wouldn’t want Tyrion’s condition to spread, per se? Did he intentionally give Sansa to Tyrion as a means of humiliating her, because she wouldn’t want to be married to a Lannister, whose family executed her father and spawn (Joffrey) had her beaten and humiliated, much less Tyrion, who had a reputation for debauchery and perversion, which didn’t fit into Sansa’s vision of a brave, gentle and strong husband? Tywin certainly isn’t above abusive and petty tactics, just ask Tysha.

It's not specifically because of Tyrell's plot, it's because he already knew that Robb married Jeyne and Sansa was about to become the only eligible heir and therefore he had to make sure that her claim would go to house Lannister.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion III
“Send her to Riverrun and her mother will match her with a Blackwood or a Mallister to shore up her son’s alliances along the Trident. Send her north, and she will be wed to some Manderly or Umber before the moon turns. Yet she is no less dangerous here at court, as this business with the Tyrells should prove. She must marry a Lannister, and soon.”

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion III
Lord Tywin was unconcerned. “Robb Stark will father no children on his fertile Frey, you have my word. There is a bit of news I have not yet seen fit to share with the council, though no doubt the good lords will hear it soon enough. The Young Wolf has taken Gawen Westerling’s eldest daughter to wife.”

There weren't other members of the family available - Lancel was very ill and other cousins were held hostage at Riverrun.

It's hard to say if Tyrion's condition is viewed as genetic or as some sort of punishment from the gods in ASOIAF world, thus we don't know if Tywin expected it to be spread.

Tywin previously offered Tyrion to houses Martell, Tully, Royce, Hightower, Florent - no matter what Tywin thinks of Tyrion, it doesn't seem to hinder him from trying to arrange a match for him.

And, as Tywin said, "the girl’s happiness is not my purpose, nor should it be yours", so I doubt that Sansa's humiliation was high on his motive list.

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Even though he says he's all about the Lannister name, I do think he has a bias towards thinking his own children are better then the other Lannisters. Plus he did promise to reward Tyrion. 

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

So when Tywin got wind of the Tyrells’ plot to marry Sansa to Willas, why did he choose Tyrion as Sansa’s Lannister husband?

 

Socially, because Tyrion was the only available Lannister male of suitable rank to be her husband. I'm sure Tywin would have preferred Jamie, but he wasn't available. No other Lannister male was suitable. Not Lancel nor anyone else. Of course, if pressed into it, I'm sure Tywin would have forgone the social appearances and got what he wanted anyway.

Politically, because Tywin wanted control of the north under his house directly. Giving it to another, lesser, branch of the family means up-jumping their line to equal to his own.

Edited by Trefayne

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Has anyone yet mentioned that Tywin may have assumed marriage (and regular sex) would cure Tyrion's whoring ways? I suspect that Tywin was less embarrassed by Tyrion's dwarfism (and I think Tywin WAS embarrassed, it being a commentary on his own "loins") than by Tyrion's whoring, gambling, and drunkenness. Oh, and little Tyrion was also a tumbler, able to entertain (bad!) and make people laugh (BAD!! remember how Tywin hates laughter).

Sansa being available, and needing to cut short the Tyrell's plans by pre-emptively marrying her to a Lannister (which, as noted, would give the Lannisters Winterfell and thus the North), Tyrion appeared to be the most available of the eligible Lannister bachelors. (Even though he and the Hound were of an age, for those who are concerned about such things.) It was too bad for Sansa that Lancel wasn't matched with her, since Lancel shortly thereafter "got religion", renounced his lands and title and marriage, and joined the Sparrows. Sansa might have been far away in the Riverlands with hubby Lancel, and able to be rescued by Robb or somebody then.

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19 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So when Tywin got wind of the Tyrells’ plot to marry Sansa to Willas, why did he choose Tyrion as Sansa’s Lannister husband? Surely another member of the family would have served the role. And since Tywin views Tyrion as an embarrassment because of his dwarfism, surely he wouldn’t want Tyrion’s condition to spread, per se? Did he intentionally give Sansa to Tyrion as a means of humiliating her, because she wouldn’t want to be married to a Lannister, whose family executed her father and spawn (Joffrey) had her beaten and humiliated, much less Tyrion, who had a reputation for debauchery and perversion, which didn’t fit into Sansa’s vision of a brave, gentle and strong husband? Tywin certainly isn’t above abusive and petty tactics, just ask Tysha.

It kind of fulfills a number of requirements for Tywin:

1. It provides a match worthy of a son of House Lannister when pretty much all other houses refused him;

2. It brings all of the north under Lannister domain, which, along with the westerlands, riverlands, crownlands and stormlands represents well over half the kingdom;

3. It gives a symbolic thumb in the eye to the rebel northern houses by installing a dwarf as their liege;

4. It pretty much removes Tyrion's claim to Casterly Rock, since he can now turn Winterfell into a brothel if he wants.

Also I don't think Tywin really cares one way or the other how Sansa feels about the marriage. She is merely the vessel through which he will extend his control over the north.

Also, I doubt Westerosi consider dwarfism to be inherited. It's been around long enough that they would have seen a recurring pattern if it was. As far as we know, there are no dwarfs earlier in the Lannister line.

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This was a win-win-win-win-win for Tywin.

He thwarts Tyrell scheming.

He finds a suitable wife for his un-matchable son.

His grandson gets to be heir to Winterfell.

He pays his reward debt to Tyrion.

He ends the need for Tyrion to seek whores.

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It is a practical match for all concerned.

1. The son of the Warden of the West and the daughter of the late Warden of the North

2. Tywin had been trying to find Tyrion a suitable wife, but all offers were rebuffed.  There was no one to rebuff this offer.

3. Any offer made to Tywin for Tyrion would probably come from a lesser house which would provide no value for Tywin.  In fact whoever offered their daughter would probably be someone who was trying to up jump their station.

4. It would give Tywin and then his grandchildren control of the North  

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On 11/11/2018 at 2:33 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Did he intentionally give Sansa to Tyrion as a means of humiliating her, because she wouldn’t want to be married to a Lannister, whose family executed her father and spawn (Joffrey) had her beaten and humiliated, much less Tyrion, who had a reputation for debauchery and perversion, which didn’t fit into Sansa’s vision of a brave, gentle and strong husband?

I doubt Tywin considered Sansa's feelings in the slightest.

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18 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

This was a win-win-win-win-win for Tywin.

He thwarts Tyrell scheming.

He finds a suitable wife for his un-matchable son.

His grandson gets to be heir to Winterfell.

He pays his reward debt to Tyrion.

He ends the need for Tyrion to seek whores.

And yet all I think about in response to that is that it was a complete lose lose for the people who actually got married. Sansa is married against her will to a man old enough to be her father who is a member of the family who killed her father and ruined her life, and Tyrion is saddled for life with a woman who despises him and will never appreciate his attempts at kindness. 

It just shows how little Tywin cared about the happiness of his family compared to how they could be used to forward his own ambitions.

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31 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

And yet all I think about in response to that is that it was a complete lose lose for the people who actually got married. Sansa is married against her will to a man old enough to be her father who is a member of the family who killed her father and ruined her life, and Tyrion is saddled for life with a woman who despises him and will never appreciate his attempts at kindness. 

It just shows how little Tywin cared about the happiness of his family compared to how they could be used to forward his own ambitions.

This is what I’m saying. Plus, Tyrion’s happiness has never been on Tywin’s radar.

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25 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

This is what I’m saying. Plus, Tyrion’s happiness has never been on Tywin’s radar.

And? 

When Ned agreed to marry his daughter to Joffrey, it was not done to make Sansa happy. Later when he broke of that marriage, despite her pleading to him that she loved Joffrey her happiness was not a factor in it. 

Sansa's two grandfathers arranged marriages for Brandon, Lyanna, Cat and Lysa, none of those marriages were arranged to make their children happy. 

Tywin is no different to the average Patriarch/Matriarch in this regard, pragmatism not romance were the reasons nobles married in their society. 

 

1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

And yet all I think about in response to that is that it was a complete lose lose for the people who actually got married. Sansa is married against her will to a man old enough to be her father

Willas is the same age, age is not a factor in this marriage. Sansa has no issue with Tyrion's age. 

1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

who is a member of the family who killed her father

Ned commited treason, he got himself killed. Tyrion is Joffrey's uncle, Willas his brother-in-law, she was marrying into Joffrey's family regardless. 

1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

 

and ruined her life,

Bit soon to make that claim, she's 13 years of age. 

1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

and Tyrion is saddled for life with a woman who despises him and will never appreciate his attempts at kindness. 

Bit soon to make that claim as well. 

1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

It just shows how little Tywin cared about the happiness of his family compared to how they could be used to forward his own ambitions.

Like pretty much every other noble father

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Like pretty much every other noble father

:agree:

Makes one wonder how Mace and Lady Olenna truly love their Margaery, given the husbands they dumped on her.

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Secret sympathy, Jim.  Wrapped inside a burrito of regular strength cruelty.   He knew things sucked for Sansa , and for Tyrion, and saw them as two peas in a podrick.  A match made of two societal throwaways.  Maybe they deserved each other, says the Tywin brain out loud, ....and maybe they can comfort one another in their misery, whispers the doting father Tywin voice which is kept locked away deep in his mush.

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On 11/13/2018 at 7:29 AM, Bernie Mac said:

And? 

When Ned agreed to marry his daughter to Joffrey, it was not done to make Sansa happy. Later when he broke of that marriage, despite her pleading to him that she loved Joffrey her happiness was not a factor in it. 

Sansa's two grandfathers arranged marriages for Brandon, Lyanna, Cat and Lysa, none of those marriages were arranged to make their children happy. 

Tywin is no different to the average Patriarch/Matriarch in this regard, pragmatism not romance were the reasons nobles married in their society. 

While Sansa's happiness wasn't Ned's primary concern, it was a consideration.  When he made the match, he had every reason to think it was a good one, and Sansa, if I remember correctly, was quite pleased with it.  One of the main reasons for wanting to call off the engagement was the realization that Joffrey wasn't a nice person, and would likely be unpleasant to Sansa at best, and abusive at worst.  

Ned's cares deeply about his children's well-being, and would be very reluctant to do anything that would make them miserable.  Tywin simply doesn't give a damn about his children's happiness or well-being.  Or anyone else's, for that matter.

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On 11/11/2018 at 2:33 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So when Tywin got wind of the Tyrells’ plot to marry Sansa to Willas, why did he choose Tyrion as Sansa’s Lannister husband? Surely another member of the family would have served the role. And since Tywin views Tyrion as an embarrassment because of his dwarfism, surely he wouldn’t want Tyrion’s condition to spread, per se? Did he intentionally give Sansa to Tyrion as a means of humiliating her, because she wouldn’t want to be married to a Lannister, whose family executed her father and spawn (Joffrey) had her beaten and humiliated, much less Tyrion, who had a reputation for debauchery and perversion, which didn’t fit into Sansa’s vision of a brave, gentle and strong husband? Tywin certainly isn’t above abusive and petty tactics, just ask Tysha.

1: Tyrion is a main character
2: He sends Tyrion to rule the north, Jaime gets the Rock after the King frees him from the KG vows 

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Quote

Catelyn sat frowning. Edmure had been right, these were no terms at all, except … “Lannister will exchange Arya and Sansa for his brother?”
“Yes. He sat on the Iron Throne and swore it.”
“Before witnesses?”
“Before all the court, my lady. And the gods as well. I said as much to Ser Edmure, but he told me it was not possible, that His Grace Robb would never consent.”
“He told you true.”

(ACoK, Ch.45 Catelyn VI)

Tyrion had exchanged terms with Lady Catelyn. Tywin was ensuring she held no delusion that those terms had been accepted by him, the real hand. He had Jamie back (courtesy of Roose Bolton, although she didn't know it. And Roose via Steelshanks, was Tywin's conduit to the Freys,  although she didn't know that either.)

What he wanted her to know was that Tyrion had pissed all over their terms, had no honour, and make sure none of the Starks would attempt to negotiate with their new brother in law. Also very humiliating for Tyrion, making sure he knew his place, winding back whatever part of his handiwork Tywin couldn't take over, just as Tywin had bought Tyrion's sellswords and sent home Tyrion's wildlings (that couldn't be bought, but could be a nuisance for Lysa, and feel that the half man had betrayed them). 

Sansa was the best marriage by far that Tywin was ever likely to procure for Tyrion, and it sends a message to the Tyrells that Tywin is on to their plots and they had better feel honoured to have Cersei instead. There is the bonus that he can claim he is giving Tyrion a 'reward' for his efforts, Winterfell for Casterley Rock. And it sends a message to Robb about where Winterfell is going when he dies (an event that Tywin knows is imminent. I doubt he gave Robb the boy credit for having the foresight to make a will as soon as he got news of Sansa's wedding.

It also protects the Lannisters - especially Tyrion. However much the Starks hate and distrust him, they have very little reason to attack him - he is Sansa's main protector, as well as her main threat. If the Northerners try a covert operation on Joffrey or any of the Lannisters at King's Landing, Sansa will be dead. And it protects Tywin from Tyrion. He isn't one to underestimate the cunning of his resentful and malignant second son ( someone's second son, anyway)

A really neat way to tie up a lot of hanging threads, ruthless, but bloodless.

Edited by Walda

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On 11/11/2018 at 5:33 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So when Tywin got wind of the Tyrells’ plot to marry Sansa to Willas, why did he choose Tyrion as Sansa’s Lannister husband?

As early as SoS chapter 4 Tywin was mentioned writing letters which is followed up with at least two more mentions of the letters. I mention this because I still question how soon Bolton and Frey threw in their lot with Lannister.

Sansa is given her invitation to Highgarden in SoS chapter 6.

In SoS chapter 16 Sansa is being fitted for a new gown. In that same chapter Sansa reminisces about telling Dontos she is going to Highgarden and will marry Willis.

That implies some time has passed because the new gown Sansa was being fitted for ended up being her wedding gown.

In SoS chapter 25 Tyrion thinks again about the letters Tywin had been writing in chapter 4.  It is also revealed in chapter 25 that LF had passed on information to the Lannister's the Tyrell's were planning the marriage of Sansa to Willas. LF got the information via Dontos via Sansa.

In that verra same chapter 25 LF is preparing to leave KL for the Eyrie to bring Lysa into the Lannister fold.   Complications upon complications.   It appears LF didn't return to KL until the wedding of Joff to Marg where LF was patiently waiting off shore. (SoS chapter 61).

SoS chapter 29 Sansa and Tyrion are wed.

Now in SoS chapter 37 during Roose's & Jaime's interactions it is revealed that Roose will be leaving Harenhall to attend the wedding at the Twins. Roose also reveals that Arya Stark was lost for a while but he [Roose] means to see that Arya be returned to the north.

Later in the story Jaime is present at the transfer of Arya/Jeyne to Bolton and Jaime also tells Brienne the girl is not Arya Stark.

Therein lays a problem. Tyrion has already wed Sansa, the eldest Stark girl who is supposedly the heir to WF.

The Red Wedding took place in SoS chapter 51.

I could continue to type and bore ---- BUT sadly I canna answer the question BECAUSE Twyin's wheeling and dealing stopped when he [Tywin] died.

What I am going to speculate is Tywin having already tied up Sansa who Tywin believed to be the last of the Starks to Tyrion is willing to let the northmen fight among themselves and rid the realm of Stannis ---- But that wouldn't work because most likely Roose knows Sansa is wed to Tyrion. BUT then again ---- AND on and on and on --- bottom line is Roose is Warden of the North, Ramsey is married to Arya/Jeyne, Tywin is dead and Sansa & Tyrion are fugitives.

 

PS. This time I didn't attach the quotes. :cheers:


 

 

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