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Angel Eyes

What was Ned’s purpose with Jon?

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So Ned brought Jon to Winterfell as an infant and raised him amongst his children. What did Ned want Jon to do with his life? Join the Night’s Watch? Rule a small holdfast? Marry a lady of a minor house? He could have set Jon up with Mya Stone, Robert did say he was interested in joining Houses Stark and Baratheon, and it’s much more suitable than Sansa and Joffrey. 

Maybe he did want Jon to join the Night’s Watch, he wasn’t particularly resistant to Catelyn kicking Jon out of the house.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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51 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

He could have set Jon up with Mya Stone,

I like this. :thumbsup:

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Kept his promise to Lyanna to keep Jon safe. Or, if Jon truly is Ned's son, raise Jon along with his siblings because you shouldn't just father children with no regard for what might happen to them.

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I don't think Ned had any particular plan for Jon. I think Ned would've let Jon do whatever he wanted, within reason of course. It just so happens that Jon wanted to join the Nights Watch. If I where Jon I would've chosen Essos, but each to their own. 

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Well Ned wanted to repopulate the New Gift, so he'd might have given Jon some land and some money to establish a new house there. Or he could arrange a position like master at arms at one of the northern castles. 

 

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

He could have set Jon up with Mya Stone, Robert did say he was interested in joining Houses Stark and Baratheon, and it’s much more suitable than Sansa and Joffrey. 

Since neither Jon, nor Mya are representing those houses, their marriage would not achieve the goal of joining Stark and Baratheon. In general the point of marriages of convenience is to build alliances and to multiply wealth. Children of the people who inherit nothing are not really relevant to alliances and there's no wealth to multiply,

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15 minutes ago, wia said:

Since neither Jon, nor Mya are representing those houses, their marriage would not achieve the goal of joining Stark and Baratheon

True I agree both are bastards. Useless in carrying on the name.

17 minutes ago, wia said:

In general the point of marriages of convenience is to build alliances and to multiply wealth.

Again I agree.

18 minutes ago, wia said:

Children of the people who inherit nothing are not really relevant to alliances and there's no wealth to multiply,

Again I agree. It's kinda sad though.

 

The fun part of the opening post was wedding Eddard's bastard to a King Bob's bastard who is in service to Arryn.

Both Eddard & Robert were wards of JA. Both considered JA fatherly.

The match could have produced a happy young couple who provided children to support the Lord of the Vale.

And of course this is chitter chatter because Jon is supposedly the protected child of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

 

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He probably had no plans for Jon, just raise him along his children and keep him safe. Seeing how Jon and Robb got along well, I'm guessing he would have let Jon remain in Winterfell and be Robb's right-hand man, similarly to King Torhhen Stark and his bastard brother Brandon.

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Since I don't remember Ned musing on it much, I always got the impression that he hadn't really figured that out yet and was mildly relieved when Jon made the choice for him after King Fatso came up and dropped all his problems in Ned's lap.

He may have felt OK with Benjen keeping an eye on him since, IMO, Benjen might be one of the few people who know who Jon really is. It certainly makes his sudden disappearance from the story before ever speaking to Jon again more understandable from a plot standpoint. Having him around could really mess up the secret for the reader.

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In all this time I don't think I've ever considered Ned's plans for Jon's adulthood.  Good on you, @Angel Eyes.  As sweet a notion as marrying their bastards is, there is surely always this outside chance that Jon could sire little silver haired purple eyed scalding bath taking children with any woman.  Or not, but that had to occur to Ned at some point.  I think getting Jon as far away from King Robert had to be the plan.  The North would have been a good place to hide and was until the stupid king was moved to throw a reunion with his foster brother.   I don't think Ned wanted Jon to go anywhere.   I think his intention was to continue to hide him out at Winterfell until that blasted reunion opened the door for Step Mommie Dearest to give the poor kid the boot at Jon's own suggestion.    

Given the conversation between Arya and Ned about the futures of Arya and Bran as well as the obvious future of Sansa, it is curious that Ned had nothing to say about Jon.    Nights Watch was certainly the most convenient option, but Ned also knew who Jon really is.  I reckon it all comes down to precisely what that promise to Lyanna really was.   She may have bound her brother to tell his nephew the truth of his parentage some day--maybe after King Robert was dead?     

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Serious business now. I doubt Eddard gave much thought to Jon's future.

If I have to do the speculation game Eddard probably thought he would be Lord of WF forever thereby keeping Jon safe.

Hells bells Theon the ward/hostage was 19 at the opening of the story.

The only thing I know is that Eddard said he could/would not take his bastard to KL.

It is book one when Eddard shut down Cat when she questioned Eddard about Jon's mother. A major mystery for the first time reader who has not visited an ASOIAF fan site.

 

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33 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Serious business now. I doubt Eddard gave much thought to Jon's future.

If I have to do the speculation game Eddard probably thought he would be Lord of WF forever thereby keeping Jon safe.

Hells bells Theon the ward/hostage was 19 at the opening of the story.

The only thing I know is that Eddard said he could/would not take his bastard to KL.

It is book one when Eddard shut down Cat when she questioned Eddard about Jon's mother. A major mystery for the first time reader who has not visited an ASOIAF fan site.

 

I agree.  Robert's Rebellion was was 18 or so years ago and Ned likely felt that he could raise Jon far from Robert's notice during cozy post war peace time.  Given what we know about the circumstances of Jon's birth Ned likely felt proud that he could raise his sister's child among his own where he could teach him about the world and keep him safe.  It's hard to speculate about what plans Ned may have had in the future for a Jon who was all grown up but he received an excellent education and knew the workings of castle life and trained with horse and sword.  He may have granted him a holdfast somewhere in the North or possibly found responsibilities right in Winterfell even.  :dunno:

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Jon is not good material to marry off to one of Robert's kids.  Cersei would crap her undies at such an idea.  Jon is a bastard.  The best he can hope for is a bastard daughter of another house.  His future is certain to be an arm man serving another lord.  

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Quote

His fury was on him. He might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in. "Another solution presents itself," he said, his voice quiet. "Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black."
Ned looked shocked. "He asked to join the Night's Watch?"

. . .

"And even a bastard may rise high in the Night's Watch," Ned reflected. Still, his voice was troubled. "Jon is so young. If he asked this when he was a man grown, that would be one thing, but a boy of fourteen …"

-AGOT Catelyn II

From Ned's reaction to Maester Luwin telling him that Jon wanted to join the NW, I don't think that was what he planned for him. I think we can all agree that Ned intended to tell the Jon the truth of his identity when Ned thought he was old enough. I think Ned intended for Jon marry to some highborn Northern girl and either be part of the household of Winterfell or give him a holdfast and raise him up as a lord or at the very least, a petty lord. 

Of course, Ned would ultimately let Jon make his own decisions when he reached adulthood. 

Edited by Fire Eater

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7 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The fun part of the opening post was wedding Eddard's bastard to a King Bob's bastard who is in service to Arryn.

Both Eddard & Robert were wards of JA. Both considered JA fatherly.

The match could have produced a happy young couple who provided children to support the Lord of the Vale.

And of course this is chitter chatter because Jon is supposedly the protected child of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

 

I actually think Jon and Mya would match well personality-wise. Pity that Robert didn't care about Mya whatsoever.

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6 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

 Jon is a bastard.  The best he can hope for is a bastard daughter of another house. 

He could have done far better than that. 

Henry FitzRoy married a daughter of the Duke of Norfolk, the most powerful House during Tudor England. 

John of Gaunt's bastard daughter Blanche (who was never legitimised unlike her Beaufort siblings) married  Sir Thomas Morieux, the Master of Horse to King Richard II. 

John Beaufort, 1st Duke of Somerset, had a bastard daughter, Tacine, who was married to  Reynold Grey, 7th Lord Grey of Wilton. 

king John's bastard son, Richard FitzRoy, married a wealthy heiress, his bastard daughter married Llywelyn the Great. 

A favored bastard of the ruler of the North could certainly do better than another bastard, a niece of Lord Umber, Karstark, Manderly etc. would well be in his means if not a daughter of a slightly lesser ranked Northern noble 

 

6 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

 

His future is certain to be an arm man serving another lord.  

He could have served his father and then brother, a prestigious position at Winterfell, or even a position at White Harbor or other key vassal looking to improve relations with the Starks. 

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Ned clearly didn't have anything planned. Not just for Jon, but all of his kids. In my opinion, though I love him, Ned failed his children here. I believe that Ned was so traumatized by the death of his family members  leaving that he never wanted any of his family to separate from him ever again. He wanted to live in the present and was not thinking of the future until it abruptly confronted him.  An understandable mistake, but a mistake all the same. 

One thing that bothers me, is when people use this issue to claim Ned didn't love Jon. Or that he didn't want to be his father. Not saying that you're doing that, OP, but i've seen it happen many times. 

Ned's parenting mistakes are all those of a father that wants his children to always be with him and not a result of any deeper malice against Jon himself. 

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5 hours ago, wia said:

I actually think Jon and Mya would match well personality-wise. Pity that Robert didn't care about Mya whatsoever.

He intended to bring Mya Stone to kings landing to be raised in his house hold but Cersie interfeared and threatned the girls life which Robert knew she was dead serious and left her in the Vale. 

 

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1 minute ago, Stormking902 said:

He intended to bring Mya Stone to kings landing to be raised in his house hold but Cersie interfeared and threatned the girls life which Robert knew she was dead serious and left her in the Vale. 

He used to care for her. Seeing how she is nothing but a mule girl when we as readers encounter her and as there is no evidence of any sort of support from Robert, I'd say he no longer cared for her at that time.

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5 minutes ago, zoenerys said:

Ned clearly didn't have anything planned. Not just for Jon, but all of his kids. In my opinion, though I love him, Ned failed his children here. I believe that Ned was so traumatized by the death of his family members  leaving that he never wanted any of his family to separate from him ever again. He wanted to live in the present and was not thinking of the future until it abruptly confronted him.  An understandable mistake, but a mistake all the same. 

One thing that bothers me, is when people use this issue to claim Ned didn't love Jon. Or that he didn't want to be his father. Not saying that you're doing that, OP, but i've seen it happen many times. 

Ned's parenting mistakes are all those of a father that wants his children to always be with him and not a result of any deeper malice against Jon himself. 

I agree Neds faults stem from him not wanting to ever break up his family including Jon, Ned obviously loves Jon as his own and treats him the same as his other children allowing him a spot at the table and to train with Robb and Theon everyday. 

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