The betrayal of Roose Bolton

[Marcelowww]

So, since when Roose Bolton got himself allied with Tywin? I remember that the sack of Winterfell happened at Clash of Kings, so he betrayed Robb BEFORE he married Jeyne? Or Robb married Jeyne before the Sack? Or it was after Stannis loose the Blackwater battle?

 

And another question, did Roose ordered the sack, or was purely ideia of Ramsay?

Also, hi, this is my first post here

 

[Marcelowww]

betrayal* 

Lol

[Loose Bolt]

Roose is paranoid so nobody in Dreadfort would even take a leak without his direct permission. Or he was never totally loyal to Robb.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

I doubt Roose was ever truly loyal to House Stark, he was just waiting for a moment of weakness. 

[John Suburbs]

15 hours ago, Marcelowww said:

So, since when Roose Bolton got himself allied with Tywin? I remember that the sack of Winterfell happened at Clash of Kings, so he betrayed Robb BEFORE he married Jeyne? Or Robb married Jeyne before the Sack? Or it was after Stannis loose the Blackwater battle?

 

And another question, did Roose ordered the sack, or was purely ideia of Ramsay?

Also, hi, this is my first post here

 

It's hard to say exactly when he started plotting with Tywin. Maybe as early as the sack of Winterfell. Remember, though, they staged it to look like the ironmen torched the castle as Ramsay was trying to liberate it, so at that point Roose has a plausible way of ingratiating himself to either Robb or Tywin. To me, that sounds like something Roose would think to do, not Ramsay.

So I think it's fair to say that Roose joined Robb's cause with the same kind of cold cunning he brings to everything: remain outwardly loyal but make sure you leave all options open in case things go bad.

I also wonder how deep Roose's loyalty to either Tywin or Walder Frey goes. He certainly would not have been ignorant of the fact that Sansa Stark's claim on Winterfell is stronger than Arya's. So what was his plan if Sansa suddenly produced Tyrion's child and they decided to claim his seat?

[Marcelowww]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So I think it's fair to say that Roose joined Robb's cause with the same kind of cold cunning he brings to everything: remain outwardly loyal but make sure you leave all options open in case things go bad.

 

Yeah, I always thought he was an opportunist.

[Seaserpent]

On 11/12/2018 at 7:37 PM, John Suburbs said:

It's hard to say exactly when he started plotting with Tywin. Maybe as early as the sack of Winterfell. Remember, though, they staged it to look like the ironmen torched the castle as Ramsay was trying to liberate it, so at that point Roose has a plausible way of ingratiating himself to either Robb or Tywin. To me, that sounds like something Roose would think to do, not Ramsay.

So I think it's fair to say that Roose joined Robb's cause with the same kind of cold cunning he brings to everything: remain outwardly loyal but make sure you leave all options open in case things go bad.

I also wonder how deep Roose's loyalty to either Tywin or Walder Frey goes. He certainly would not have been ignorant of the fact that Sansa Stark's claim on Winterfell is stronger than Arya's. So what was his plan if Sansa suddenly produced Tyrion's child and they decided to claim his seat?

Very good point he knows that in the deal of Tywin he got really nothing to gain, so the Tywinn deal is a total empty deal for the Boltons. I think Roose left all options open in the beginning of the war, to spare a lot of his army. At the moment Rickon and Bran died in the sack of Winterfell he turned to the Lannisters. Robb was at that moment the only one between Them and Winterfell, because arya was not heared of and Sansa would marry Joffrey at that moment and would have been queen in the south. Robb was a king without a castle and without suitable heirs.  The hope from Roose was based on the fact that the North would not have tolerated a Lannister or Baretheon after the dead of Ned Stark.

[Annalee]

On 11/12/2018 at 1:37 PM, John Suburbs said:

It's hard to say exactly when he started plotting with Tywin. Maybe as early as the sack of Winterfell. Remember, though, they staged it to look like the ironmen torched the castle as Ramsay was trying to liberate it, so at that point Roose has a plausible way of ingratiating himself to either Robb or Tywin. To me, that sounds like something Roose would think to do, not Ramsay.

So I think it's fair to say that Roose joined Robb's cause with the same kind of cold cunning he brings to everything: remain outwardly loyal but make sure you leave all options open in case things go bad.

I also wonder how deep Roose's loyalty to either Tywin or Walder Frey goes. He certainly would not have been ignorant of the fact that Sansa Stark's claim on Winterfell is stronger than Arya's. So what was his plan if Sansa suddenly produced Tyrion's child and they decided to claim his seat?

The Stark girls lost their claim.  Robb Stark lost Winterfell because he rebelled.  I don't have the quote but an attainder was prepared to take Winterfell from him and his family.  

[aryagonnakill#2]

21 minutes ago, Annalee said:

The Stark girls lost their claim.  Robb Stark lost Winterfell because he rebelled.  I don't have the quote but an attainder was prepared to take Winterfell from him and his family.  

That's not something that matters to anyone but the Lannisters though.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, Annalee said:

The Stark girls lost their claim.  Robb Stark lost Winterfell because he rebelled.  I don't have the quote but an attainder was prepared to take Winterfell from him and his family.  

You might have confused Robb with Edmure Tully. The fact is, nobody, and that includes such sentimental softies as Tywin Lannister and Roose Bolton, has tried to bypass the Stark claim to Winterfell.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 11/11/2018 at 7:27 PM, Marcelowww said:

So, since when Roose Bolton got himself allied with Tywin? I remember that the sack of Winterfell happened at Clash of Kings, so he betrayed Robb BEFORE he married Jeyne? Or Robb married Jeyne before the Sack? Or it was after Stannis loose the Blackwater battle?

 

And another question, did Roose ordered the sack, or was purely ideia of Ramsay?

Also, hi, this is my first post here

Roose turned after Robb married Jeyne. 

[The Sunland Lord]

Roose is born as a traitor. 

[Axrendale]

Roose and Tywin probably first communicate with each other during Tywin's occupation of Harrenhal. There's no direct confirmation of this in the books, but we know that Tywin wrote to the Manderlys in that time, so it stands to reason that he made overtures to the Boltons as well.

Their alliance is consumated after the battle of the Blackwater, when Roose betrays the Northern army heading to Duskendale.

[Seams]

My sense is that the first (indirect) evidence of Roose's betrayal of Robb comes in the Arya X chapter of ACoK. Roose decides to go wolf-hunting, among other hints in that chapter. I believe the "Bolton's Burnt Book" thread had some good discussion about when Roose started to implement his plan to ally with the Lannisters, although I haven't read the thread lately. 

I suspect that Theon's invasion of Winterfell was a surprise to the Boltons. Even if they allowed for the possibility that the Ironborn would attack the North, in the past, those attacks always started and ended with plundering and pillaging, not with occupation. In order for the Lannister and Bolton takeover of the North to succeed, they really needed Bran and Rickon both to die.

I think Ramsay and Reek would have been sent to Winterfell under some ruse (ha!) even if Theon had not established himself as the Prince of Winterfell. Ramsay's goal would have been to kill Bran and Rickon, allowing Sansa and fArya to rise in the succession as Stark heirs and empowering the Lannisters (and Boltons) to control them through strategic marriages. Ramsay Bolton kills Ser Rodrick Cassel, the castellan of Winterfell, as soon as he returns. He would have taken over the castle with or without Theon softening things up before he brought in his fighting force. Theon inserting himself into the situation actually allowed Bran and Rickon to escape the fate that Ramsay would have inflicted on them. 

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Annalee said:

The Stark girls lost their claim.  Robb Stark lost Winterfell because he rebelled.  I don't have the quote but an attainder was prepared to take Winterfell from him and his family.  

Not exactly. Robb may have given up his rights to Winterfell as far as the crown is concerned, but Tywin knows that the north will only support a Stark in Winterfell, even one through the female line. That is why he married Sansa to Tyrion and why he is pressuring Tyrion to father a son on her even after the Red Wedding. It is also why he bothered with the whole fArya plan: the only way Ramsay could have a remotely possible claim to Winterfell is by marrying a daughter of Eddard Stark.