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Canon Claude

Condoning Renly Baratheon

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The Baratheon brothers’ big tragedy is their inability to have never had a brotherly connection. Between them is everything needed to take charge of Westeros: Robert’s war prowess, Stannis’ sense of justice and strategy, Renly’s charisma and charm. Most of the conflicts they faced in their lives could have been fixed if they’d learned to love each other and count on each other. They could have been the most dynamic power faction in who knows how long. But no, they hated and mistrusted each other and tore their House apart with their inner squabbling. How the mighty fall. 

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Also Renly was gay and he met Loras and fell in love. The Tyrells more or less acquiesced this. I bet Stannis regarded Renly's homosexuality as insanity and Robert would just have mocked him. Having his sexuality be accepted must have played a role in being more closer to the Tyrells.

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9 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

Renly has a bad rep in the fandom.

In the books, Renly is portrayed in an somewhat negative light because we see him from the POVs of Eddard, Catetly and Davos. They are from an older generation, and to them Renly is someone unreliable who has never been put to the test.

But I wouldn't say that he has a bad rep among fandom. Every character has both supporters and detractors, and Renly is no different. Ned's fans may accuse him of abandoning him in King's Landing after Robert's death, and Stannis' fans will say that he was a traitor for not acknowledging his older brother's prevalence over him. But I've seen as many members of this forum saying Eddard was a fool for not listening Renly, or that Stannis should have resigned when he realized that no one wanted him as a king.

Edited by The hairy bear

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9 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

SNIP

And so what did Stannis do after undergoing such an event with his brother? He shut himself on his ugly gloomy rock to ponder on his woes and misfortunes

SNIP

This is wrong.

Stannis was in KL for many years serving on the Small Council as master of ships for many years. Renly was still a child, Stannis probably was in charge of Renly's care and education (we know Robert wouldn't have done it).

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I pretty much agree with this.  I have trouble criticizing Renly, he put together the strongest army and seemed like he had a good plan to win the Throne.  I guess you could argue that Renly was obligated to throw his support behind Stannis, and had he done so they'd both be alive and sitting on the Throne, but Renly saw things truly about Stannis.  How nobody really liked him nor wanted to support him, and Stannis for his part made minimal effort to actually win people over to his cause.  

Certainly, from Renly's POV you could see how he would believe the opposite- that Stannis should have bent the knee and they could have ruled together.  Renly is the one who did more kingly things in terms of winning people over, smallfolk and nobles alike, he's the one who put together the biggest support base and army, why should he, the more powerful one, bend the knee to Stannis who basically showed up as a beggar?  The irony is that between Renly and Stannis you probably have the perfect ruler- Renly as the charming face of the operation with political savvy, with Stannis as the enforcer and the disciplinarian.

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#1) Renly was willing to kin slay

#2) Under the influence of Tyrells

#3) He was upsetting the rule of succession 

#4) The real enemy were the Lannisters that played them and Robert

And of course...

 

He had a very good chance of ruling after Stannis

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2 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

Exactly, he was in KL or Dragonstone while Renly was in Storm's End. And Penrose and the maesters were left taking care of Renly. 

This a lame dodge. Once the seige was over, it was Robert's duty to tend to Renly... and we know Robert didn't do anything. The original point was that Stannis ran away and sulked, which he didn't, he did his duty to Robert, always. Robert was the eldest and should have taken care of Renly's needs, which Robert didn't.

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47 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

He sided with the very people which starved him and his brother nearly to death. 

Yes. When it was in his interest to do so. Holding some petty grudge against the Tyrells by virtue of them doing their jobs by trying to do away with rebels to the crown, would be immature. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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On July 27, 2018 at 12:07 PM, Tagganaro said:

I pretty much agree with this.  I have trouble criticizing Renly, he put together the strongest army and seemed like he had a good plan to win the Throne.  I guess you could argue that Renly was obligated to throw his support behind Stannis, and had he done so they'd both be alive and sitting on the Throne, but Renly saw things truly about Stannis.  How nobody really liked him nor wanted to support him, and Stannis for his part made minimal effort to actually win people over to his cause.  

Certainly, from Renly's POV you could see how he would believe the opposite- that Stannis should have bent the knee and they could have ruled together.  Renly is the one who did more kingly things in terms of winning people over, smallfolk and nobles alike, he's the one who put together the biggest support base and army, why should he, the more powerful one, bend the knee to Stannis who basically showed up as a beggar?  The irony is that between Renly and Stannis you probably have the perfect ruler- Renly as the charming face of the operation with political savvy, with Stannis as the enforcer and the disciplinarian.

And it's not as if Renly really doing something that unprencdented; there have been repeated instances within the history of the iron throne to where primogeniture was overlooked because simply put the person next in line was not seen as qualified.

Hell, it's not as if during Robert's reign there wasn't someone who had a stronger claim to the throne than him; Viserys, had been a begger for years yet no one that was party Ribert's rebellion is ever really seen pointing this tidbit of information out. Hell Renly was at a council meeting to where Robert decided to murder a 14 year old girl and her "unborn child" large  out of fear should Daenarys give birth to a son, that boy would be seen as more entifled to the throne than Ribert. If no one seems to be respecting the laws of succession why should Renly? 

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Renly played his cards very poorly.

When in King's Landing he is the only one in the small concil to not find out about the incest. Ned, Stannis, Jon Arryn, Littlefinger, Varys, Pycelle, all knew about it. He goes out of his way to mock his handicapped niece. His plan of setting up Margeary and Robert never seems to never be put into motion.

He had the biggest army in the history of Westeros, but he chose to parade his way to Kings Landing in a slow march giving time for the Lannisters solve their other issues. The only reason the Lannisters look so weak at that moment is because Robb surprised everyone and destroyed half of their forces.

Renly chose to starve Kings Landing by blocking the supplies to the city. This is the city that will become the capital of his kingdom in the future, letting the place rioting in the verge of starvation was a bad plan.

He was very arrogant, he took Dorne and the North for granted, his atempt to ally with Robb was a empty title and he didn't even tried to look for the dornish (the biggest enemies of the Lannisters).

He also decided to rescue Storm's End from Stannis, a castle that is in no risk of falling, he stop his parade to King's Landing, he let Stannis choose the moment of the battle, he ignores the the concil of Tarly and attack Stannis in the night.

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34 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

When in King's Landing he is the only one in the small concil to not find out about the incest. Ned, Stannis, Jon Arryn, Littlefinger, Varys, Pycelle, all knew about it. He goes out of his way to mock his handicapped niece. His plan of setting up Margeary and Robert never seems to never be put into motion.

Jon Arryn was only made aware of the twincest by virtue of Stannis; and even then he wasn't entirely convinced enough of it to actually tell Robert. Barristan also didn't seem aware of it. Ned had only put together the pieces by a passing comment by Sansa, and only really started finding the pieces, in suspecting Jon Arrym was murdered(to which was prompted by Lysha lying about the lanisters being responsible for Arryn's animosity). 

34 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

He had the biggest army in the history of Westeros, but he chose to parade his way to Kings Landing in a slow march giving time for the Lannisters solve their other issues. The only reason the Lannisters look so weak at that moment is because Robb surprised everyone and destroyed half of their forces.

He chose to keep his army healthy, and high moral(hench the parades and games), while his enemies bloodied each other; by the time the lanisters and Stark's finish dukinh it out they'd be too weak to properly mount a defense against Renly and his allies.

34 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Renly chose to starve Kings Landing by blocking the supplies to the city. This is the city that will become the capital of his kingdom in the future, letting the place rioting in the verge of starvation was a bad plan.

Yes. He did knowing the people would take issue with the current power structure in KL(the lanisters), and try to kill them the more they suffer from hunger(which they very nearly do in very early on in the book).  When he actually comes, he would "save" the city. Besides there really no way to actually take the city without there being a lot innocents dying anyway.

34 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

He was very arrogant, he took Dorne and the North for granted, his atempt to ally with Robb was a empty title and he didn't even tried to look for the dornish (the biggest enemies of the Lannisters).

 

Whose to say he didn't have plans to recruit the Dornish? He was killed rather early on in his war-effort.  He was negotiations with Robb-his initial stipulation for an alliance does mean any further negotiations aren't a possibility. And I have to say what he's offering Robb isn't bad; justice for his father's killer(Joffery), and be would being allowed to keep the title of King is pretty good-Robb can come out the war, without fear of his line facing continued invasions from the Ironthrone, and keeping face.

 

34 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

He also decided to rescue Storm's End from Stannis, a castle that is in no risk of falling, he stop his parade to King's Landing, he let Stannis choose the moment of the battle, he ignores the the concil of Tarly and attack Stannis in the night.

Tarley's grievance wasn't really major. If it was he would have been more like to try harder to convince Renly. Stannis had an army of 5000(a good number of which were sells words), Remly had an army of 100,000, he's not wrong to be fretful of being defeated by Stannis.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 Jon Arryn was only made aware of the twincest by virtue of Stannis; and even then he wasn't entirely convinced enough of it to actually tell Robert. Barristan also didn't seem aware of it. Ned had only put together the pieces by a passing comment by Sansa, and only really started finding the pieces, in suspecting Jon Arrym was murdered(to which was prompted by Lysha lying about the lanisters being responsible for Arryn's animosity). 

Even so, they all finded it out.

Renly never cared to investigate the death of Jon Arryn that one night was fine and the other was dead, he also didn't care about Stannis, the personification of duty leaving his post in the smal concil without justification. When Stannis send the letters Catelyn quickly conect the points, Renly refuses to acknologe it even there.

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 He chose to keep his army healthy, and high moral(hench the parades and games), while his enemies bloodied each other; by the time the lanisters and Stark's finish dukinh it out they'd be too weak to properly mount a defense against Renly and his allies.

Yes. He did knowing the people would take issue with the current power structure in KL(the lanisters), and try to kill them the more they suffer from hunger(which they very nearly do in very early on in the book).  When he actually comes, he would "save" the city. Besides there really no way to actually take the city without there being a lot innocents dying anyway.

He is starving his own city near the winter while he keeps parading himself. His waste of time gives the Lannisters time to fortify the city. He isn't letting his enemies bleed each other, he is letting the chaos run through the realms he intend to rule while he sits idle.

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Whose to say he didn't have plans to recruit the Dornish? He was killed rather early on in his war-effort.  He was negotiations with Robb-his initial stipulation for an alliance does mean any further negotiations aren't a possibility. And I have to say what he's offering Robb isn't bad; justice for his father's killer(Joffery), and be would being allowed to keep the title of King is pretty good-Robb can come out the war, without fear of his line facing continued invasions from the Ironthrone, and keeping face.

 

A empty title is what he is offering. He promissed justice but he still delaying his march on the city, and he wouldn't compromise more, we know it because he intended to show Catelyn how he would deal with rebels... he is threatining Robb after this one came with a offer of alliance. He never tried to reach the dornish, but he did took them for granted.

 

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Tarley's grievance wasn't really major. If it was he would have been more like to try harder to convince Renly. Stannis had an army of 5000(a good number of which were sells words), Remly had an army of 100,000, he's not wrong to be fretful of being defeated by Stannis.

Renly had 20k there not his whole army. He ignores Tarly sugestion of a night attack, he replaces his best general in favor of his boyfriend, he let Stannis choose the time of the battle... Renly is so far away from reallity and actually playing a war, that he ask his men to capture Barristan Selmy alive, like if he could control who live and who dies in the middle of the battle.

Edited by Arthur Peres
grammar

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I'm a huge fan of Renly. Hes funny, likable, and would have been a much better king in summer and at peace. 

 

But winter is coming, and worse, war is coming.

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4 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Renly never cared to investigate the death of Jon Arryn that one night was fine and the other was dead, he also didn't care about Stannis, the personification of duty leaving his post in the smal concil without justification. When Stannis send the letters Catelyn quickly conect the points, Renly refuses to acknologe it even there.

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Why would Rebly investigate Arryn's death? Jon was ancient by Westerorsos standards. Him taking deathly ill should have happened years ago. Stannis did not tell Renly anything, given he's always been a little salty about something(mostly Robert), it's not really unreasonable Renly to think the guy just left after being fed up-how could he know Stannis would be so low as to leave Robert and Renly in a nest of vipers with no warning of his suspicions? Catelyn did not connect the dots as soon as the letters went out, she realized the twincest during the parley with the Baratheon brothers. 

4 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

He is starving his own city near the winter while he keeps parading himself. His waste of time gives the Lannisters time to fortify the city. He isn't letting his enemies bleed each other, he is letting the chaos run through the realms he intend to rule while he sits idle.

Fortify the city? We see peasants tearing the city apart relatively early on in ACOK. The Royal family was nearly murdered(and probably eaten imo), a noblewoman traveling with them was raped by dozens of men in the attack. The city was crumbling.By the time Renly actually gets there, the city's population would have made defending it properly near impossible. And the games, and shows, man they're for moral; keeping that up is important. Just because he's not rushing into battle just to fight his enemies does not mean he's simply not doing anything.

4 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

A empty title is what he is offering. He promissed justice but he still delaying his march on the city, and he wouldn't compromise more, we know it because he intended to show Catelyn how he would deal with rebels... he is threatining Robb after this one came with a offer of alliance. He never tried to reach the dornish, but he did took them for granted.

 

He's offering Robb a title to which allows him to keep image among his supporters, peace and justice for his father. He promised Robb nothing however. Catelyn never actually had a chance to deliver his terms to Robb. It's possible further negotiations would have been would have proceeded, to were more stipulations were added(perhaps more land, less tribute to the Ironthrone, an arranged marriage etc). We don't know if he had any plans to reach out to the Dornish or if he dismissed them as a loss cause. Yes, he wanted Catelyn to actually see how effective he and his allies were by quashing Stannis; a show of strength does not mean a person is not willing to negotiate; it simply shows if negotiations fail he is willing and able to get what wants through pure force.

He does not to immediately rush into battle wasting, the lives of his followers to get Justice. 

 

4 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

enly had 20k there not his whole army. He ignores Tarly sugestion of a night attack, he replaces his best general in favor of his boyfriend, he let Stannis choose the time of the battle... Renly is so far away from reallity and actually playing a war, that he ask his men to capture Barristan Selmy alive, like if he could control who live and who dies in the middle of the battle.

Fair point. Still 4-1 odds allow him to have some leeway in determining what time he conducts battle. And if Tarley felt so strongly about this he would have like tried a little harder to actually persuade Renly; the time to which to attack Stannis was a minor in the end. He chooses Loras to lead the vanguard. Tarley was not replaced. Barristan should be tried to be spared if he can; he's simply more use alive as a symbol of Renly's generousty, and he can be; even in the haste of battle it is possible. I mean we see Robb get Jaimie alive(such was his goal).

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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I don't see the relevance in Renly being popular. Robert was popular, and he was a terrible king. 

I'd guess someone who could hold a castle for a year without food would be more suitable with a potentially decade-long winter coming.

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