Condoning Renly Baratheon

[Lord Lannister]

Just now, Universal Sword Donor said:

So we are meant to ignore Renly telling Ned the Lannisters aren't merciful and it won't end up well if Cersei remains regent, ned's subsequent imprisonment and execution, Renly repeating the same thing to Catelyn, and then Cersei admitting she wanted to kill Stannis and Renly before she killed Robert?

He is interested in retaining power. He specifically avoids trying to gain power until it's literally his last option. He feared Cersei so much he left before Robert even died. Alone against the crown he stood no chance. Hell he doesn't even get all the Stormlords to rally to his banner when he crowns himself. Marrying Marg to crown himself is most certainly advancing his own claim to power but it's also just as important in his self preservation, both by preventing the Tyrells from going with the IT and surrounding himself with more troops than the crown can throw at him.

That's why he laughed at Catelyn's suggestion of a Great Council? Because he just wanted to save his life and really had no interest in ruling?

[The Sunland Lord]

19 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

They why bring it up?

Usurping is not that big of a problem since Robert did it. I said that Renly was willing to kill Stannis and his nephews and niece (he didn't know about the twincest), not usurp them. 

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Stannis attacked Renly first and made an absurd demand. Why is ok for Stannis to want to kill Renly but not vice versa? 

I didn't say it was OK. Stannis is a brother killer instead of Renly.

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You mock Renly for being selfish but support Stannis in being selfish without proof? Sure why not

I mock Renly's arrogance and ignorance. 

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So Renly plays his strongest hand, realizing he might not be able to do something, and you criticize him for delegation? What are your thoughts on Tywin sending Tyrion to KL or Rhaegar (probably) sending Oswell Whent to convince his brother to host the tourney at HH? Trying to do something yourself when you have a better option at hand is the height of stupidity.

He has the right to play his strongest hand (well after he wanted to become a king, based on no law of course). My thoughts on Tywin sending Tyrion to King's Langing? Smart move, I guess. It's just that I dismiss the claims that Renly was so very charming and everyone loved him (not that you said it, to be fair). It's clear that Mace is an opportunist who jumped on Joffrey's ship after Renly died.

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Given that Renly tries *twice* to survive without gaining any power and Stannis resorts to building up his forces while Robert is alive, crowns himself without any evidence as to why, and immediately attacks Renly instead of treating with him, I am gonna disagree. 

Stannis knew about the twincest and recognized his brother as a king. After Robert, if Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are born of incest, Stannis comes next in line. So he has a claim to the throne. Plus, as much as a tightarse Stannis is, he did parley with Renly.

[The Sunland Lord]

17 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Who is "we?" And as far as killing men in war: 

“Aye, men are dying. More will die before we see Winterfell. What of it? This is war. Men die in war. That is as it should be. As it has always been.”

Renly knows that capturing Stannis doesn't really do anything to improve his position. On the other hand Stannis' death means supporters won't try to save him and it's one fewer competitor for the throne, let alone a competitor with the same or a better claim.

I meant we as readers, since it's clear that Stannis killed Renly via shadowdemon, we recognize Stannis as a brother killer since it managed to do it first, ant not vice versa. This doesn't make Renly any better in any case.

[Universal Sword Donor]

6 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Usurping is not that big of a problem since Robert did it. I said that Renly was willing to kill Stannis and his nephews and niece (he didn't know about the twincest), not usurp them. 

Usurping based on Robert is a death sentence for the others in line to the throne.

6 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I didn't say it was OK. Stannis is a brother killer instead of Renly.

I mock Renly's arrogance and ignorance. 

Mocking his ignorance of something maybe 5 people in the kingdom had figured out is a bold stance to take. His arrogance? Sure absent a magic unseen in Westeros he stands basically no chance of losing to Stannis.

6 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

He has the right to play his strongest hand (well after he wanted to become a king, based on no law of course). My thoughts on Tywin sending Tyrion to King's Langing? Smart move, I guess. It's just that I dismiss the claims that Renly was so very charming and everyone loved him (not that you said it, to be fair). It's clear that Mace is an opportunist who jumped on Joffrey's ship after Renly died.

Renly was loved by lords of the Reach, the small folk, and his own bannermen. People who had no allegiance or reason to like him liked him (or loved him best). Catelyn notes hes a moderating version of Robert. You can dismiss his charming nature but there's not much to support that claim.

6 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Stannis knew about the twincest and recognized his brother as a king. After Robert, if Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are born of incest, Stannis comes next in line. So he has a claim to the throne. Plus, as much as a tightarse Stannis is, he did parley with Renly.

He parleyed with a much larger force after attacking Renly's castle after not talking to Renly for the best part of the year, gathering forces while Robert is still alive. Not parlaying with Renly is basically a death sentence.

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I meant we as readers, since it's clear that Stannis killed Renly via shadowdemon, we recognize Stannis as a brother killer since it managed to do it first, ant not vice versa. This doesn't make Renly any better in any case.

Yes who are these "readers?" I got that much. I don't see many (any?) people espousing that

[Universal Sword Donor]

15 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

That's why he laughed at Catelyn's suggestion of a Great Council? Because he just wanted to save his life and really had no interest in ruling?

At that point he is clearly interested and vested in ruling. It doesn't mean that his initial motivation of survival wasn't valid nor does it mean it's not still a concern. If Joffrey retains the IT after the Great Council, that still leaves Cersei free to kill him and Stannis as she sees fit, marriage to the Tyrells or no. He's getting the best of both worlds by pushing war.

[Bernie Mac]

10 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

That's why he laughed at Catelyn's suggestion of a Great Council? Because he just wanted to save his life and really had no interest in ruling?

In fairness why would he risk it? The last great council was won by Egg thanks to support from Gerold Lannister and his gold, this could well happen again as the hugely rich Lannisters supporting the three unmarried  children may well win the support of the majority. 

 

 

[The Sunland Lord]

3 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yes who are these "readers?" I got that much. I don't see many (any?) people espousing that

Stannis probably killed Renly via baby shadowdemon. Precise enough? 

[BlackLightning]

The fact that Renly didn't know about the Lannister twincestuous treason is no excuse.

In fact, it makes him look 3x as worse because he's not only disenfranchising his sole remaining brother Stannis, he's robbing his underaged nephews and nieces of both their birthrights and livelihoods. Which puts how many lives in mortal danger?

Renly is completely shameless and sacrilegious. And the Tyrells are not that much better.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 minute ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Stannis probably killed Renly via baby shadowdemon. Precise enough? 

Who says they dislike Stannis for killing Renly? That was your initial assertion. I have not seen that sentiment much of anywhere, definitely cannot recall one offhand. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

Just now, Jabar of House Titan said:

The fact that Renly didn't know about the Lannister twincestuous treason is no excuse.

In fact, it makes him look 3x as worse because he's not only disenfranchising his sole remaining brother Stannis, he's robbing his underaged nephews and nieces of both their birthrights and livelihoods. Which puts how many lives in mortal danger?

Renly is completely shameless and sacrilegious. And the Tyrells are not that much better.

What's the penalty for treason committed once versus committed 4 times?

[BlackLightning]

Just now, Universal Sword Donor said:

What's the penalty for treason committed once versus committed 4 times?

Death and perhaps even the complete destruction of House Baratheon. Maybe even House Tyrell too.

But that's not the point.

And it's not just treason we're talking about. As far as Renly knows, they are all his family, his blood. Immediate family at that.

But apparently none of that matters; they can just die and get out of his way because he wants to be king. Or rather, the Tyrells want him to want to be king.

Like I said: shameless and sacrilegious.

Which puts him definitively in the category of Cersei Lannister, Ramsay Bolton and Walder Frey.

[The Sunland Lord]

8 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Who says they dislike Stannis for killing Renly? That was your initial assertion. I have not seen that sentiment much of anywhere, definitely cannot recall one offhand. 

Killing your own brother is a reason for people to generally dislike the act. I don't care much about Renly, as one can see, but I certainly disapprove what Stannis did to Renly. And there are people at least on this forum, which dislike Stannis as a character because of this, but I don't see why should I remember who exactly they were or pointing them out.

[Universal Sword Donor]

13 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Killing your own brother is a reason for people to generally dislike the act. I don't care much about Renly, as one can see, but I certainly disapprove what Stannis did to Renly. And there are people at least on this forum, which dislike Stannis as a character because of this, but I don't see why should I remember who exactly they were or pointing them out.

Because you were using it as support for a point that doesn't seem to play out it the books. Of all the brothers or family members who've died fighting each other, the only ones I can really point to as having a negative effect on their reputation is Maekar and Tyrion. That wasn't war though. That was a trial by seven and murder. It would have been hard for the IB to think less of Euron but he wasn't even really connected by most to Balon's death.

[Universal Sword Donor]

18 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Death and perhaps even the complete destruction of House Baratheon. Maybe even House Tyrell too.

But that's not the point.

And it's not just treason we're talking about. As far as Renly knows, they are all his family, his blood. Immediate family at that.

But apparently none of that matters; they can just die and get out of his way because he wants to be king. Or rather, the Tyrells want him to want to be king.

Like I said: shameless and sacrilegious.

Which puts him definitively in the category of Cersei Lannister, Ramsay Bolton and Walder Frey.

His sister in law controls 3/4 of that immediately family and wants him dead. Why do people keep ignoring that

[Arthur Peres]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

you are beginning to sound petty as fuck now and clearly clueless about medieval warfare. Nobles in battle were often spared and because of their banners they were easily identifiable. 

How so? Renly was pure aand simple vanity in person.

He placed Loras in the van- a young knight that never lead a army in battle - instead of Tarly, his best commander. Renly also is looking for things like Stannis sword. Renly has no idea what he is doing, he just thinks he can win because he has bigger numbers.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure. Both Varys and Littlefinger have spies, while Renly (and Barristan) don't. Jon Arryn is told by Stannis.

 Renly, like 99.999% of the realm had no reason to suspect nor did anyone give him a hint like Arryn and Ned were given

Jaime and Cersei weren't discrete about their relationship, they were doing in front of a passed out drunk Robert, Tyrion also knew about it.

Renly knew that Cersei hated him and he wanted to replace her for Margeary, it's obvious that he should be paying attention to her.

Stannis knew about the incest, he knew about Renly's plot to bed Margeary and Robert. He is a much better observer then Renly.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why would he attack when his strength is not fully formed and with Tywin so close by? 

"His strength is not att fully". He just reunited the biggest army in the history of Westeros...He had more than enough to easily take the city.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Renly is the general, we watched him at his war council. Generals decide who fights where. Tarly was never 'the general', he was never replaced. 

 Loras is given the position of leading the vanguard, a position as on of the best and most respected knights in the realm he is qualified to do regardless of his sexuality (some of you are really hung up over this)

Please do not make me sound like some homophobic, Loras is Renly's boyfriend, and the king was playing favorites instead of choosing the best option, that is my critic.

Replace the word general for commander if you want. Renly was still putting untested persons into key positions. He was playing a war.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Stannis challenged him to battle, the challenge involved the time of the battle. 

so what? Stannis declared himself his enemy and gave him a time to reconsider (and killed him during this time). Renly did not need to wait nothing. After the parley they were enemies.

[BlackLightning]

3 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

His sister in law controls 3/4 of that immediately family and wants him dead. Why do people keep ignoring that

Well, actually, she controls 3/5. Why does everyone forget about Shireen?

I'm not ignoring it. Yes, Cersei is an awful human being. But Cersei wants Renly dead because Renly's claim to the throne from himself is A) endangering her life and that of her children and unlawful.

If Renly doesn't know or doesn't believe that Cersei's children are illegitimate - and conceived by her twin brother, a Kingsguard no less - then Renly is dirty.

If Renly does know, then he can't be faulted for wanting to oust Cersei's children.

[Bernie Mac]

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

How so? Renly was pure aand simple vanity in person.

Clearly there was a lot more to him than that, you don't become the most supported ruler in the war of the five kings if there is little other than vanity to your character. 

Honestly, and this is the fandom in general, people are too hung up on modern day gay stereotypes when they think of Renly. 

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

He placed Loras in the van- a young knight that never lead a army in battle

Stannis does exactly the same. Guyard Morrigen was a baby during Robert's Rebellion and Stannis gives him the command of the Vanguard.  Tywin has the equally inexperienced Garlan lead the Van over Tarly at the battle of blackwater.  Tarly himself would have been young with little experience in real warfare when he led the Van against the equally young and inexperienced Robert. 

These nobles entire education is on warfare, Loras, as one of the greatest and most respected knights of his generation, he was more  than  qualified  to lead  it. 

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

- instead of Tarly, his best commander.

It is actually better to have his better commanders by his side where he can actually influence the battle rather than in the Van. It is actually much harder to command an army in the Van. 

Your complaints here are a little illogical. 

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Renly also is looking for things like Stannis sword.

as is Stannis. You can't shit on one brother for being impressed with the magical sword and not the other. This is actually a society obsessed with 'magic' swords

So far your arguments are petty as they apply to the majority of the characters but only Renly is being blamed for them. 

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Renly has no idea what he is doing, he just thinks he can win because he has bigger numbers.

That is how the majority of medieval wars are settled between opponents  similarly equipped. Without his magical  shadow  baby Stannis is toast

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Jaime and Cersei weren't discrete about their relationship,

clearly they were. 99.9999%  of the realm did not know. 

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Tyrion also knew about it.

their brother? how does that not make them discreet? 

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Renly knew that Cersei hated him and he wanted to replace her for Margeary, it's obvious that he should be paying attention to her.

He likely was. But without a spy network how would he find out, why would he even suspect that?

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Stannis knew about the incest,

yes, though we don't know how. 

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

he knew about Renly's plot to bed Margeary and Robert.

it was no secret, everyone knew. 

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

He is a much better observer then Renly.

fair enough, is anyone disputing that? 

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

"His strength is not att fully". He just reunited the biggest army in the history of Westeros...He had more than enough to easily take the city.

but it was not fully formed. it is idiotic to attack without your full strength when Tywin has 20k and you may still need to beat the North and Riverlands.

every battle should be about as few casualties as possible. 

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Please do not make me sound like some homophobic, Loras is Renly's boyfriend, and the king was playing favorites instead of choosing the best option, that is my critic.

Loras is one of the best knights in the series, you thinking he was chosen based on being Renly's 'boyfriend' comes across as homophobic. 

 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

49 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Well, actually, she controls 3/5. Why does everyone forget about Shireen?

I'm not ignoring it. Yes, Cersei is an awful human being. But Cersei wants Renly dead because Renly's claim to the throne from himself is A) endangering her life and that of her children and unlawful.

Cersei wanted Renly dead long before he claimed the throne

49 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

If Renly doesn't know or doesn't believe that Cersei's children are illegitimate - and conceived by her twin brother, a Kingsguard no less - then Renly is dirty.

If Renly does know, then he can't be faulted for wanting to oust Cersei's children.

Renly is already willing to usurp family, so him being 'dirty' is hardly a knock. Hell he even quotes that since Robert was able to bear the shame of usurping, so shall he. 

[BlackLightning]

4 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Cersei wanted Renly dead long before he claimed the throne

 

Really?! When?

5 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Renly is already willing to usurp family, so him being 'dirty' is hardly a knock. Hell he even quotes that since Robert was able to bear the shame of usurping, so shall he. 

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That's the problem. Renly's willingness to usurp and rob his own immediate family is what makes him dirty. Shameless and sacrilegious too...

Renly is also an unreliable narrator as it is obvious that he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. Everyone from Sunspear to Castle Black knows that his situation and Robert's situation are completely different.

As a matter of fact, if Lyanna was raised from the dead and given to him in marriage at the cost of his crown and his wealth, Robert would gladly give it all away and be riding off into the sunset before you could say "Don't Mess With Texas."

Being king didn't matter to him when he called his banners, it didn't matter to him when he condoned the murder of Rhaenys and Aegon(???), it didn't matter to him when Joffrey was born, it didn't matter when he tried to compete in his own tourney and it didn't matter to him on his deathbed.

It seems to be everything that Renly ever cared about though.