Condoning Renly Baratheon

[Hugorfonics]

22 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

While I agree that no one knows what would have happened if it came to battle, the Wildlings are notoriously undisciplined fighters plus were caught completely unawares by Stannis.

 

Good point. They also had mammoths and giants. Both sides had their pros and cons.

21 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Ned is absent for much of the war, gathering his own levies in the North. 

At the Eyrie, when Jon and Robert head to Gulltown and Ned heads home, there is a lot of months before they meet up again at the Stoney Sept, we only know of one battle they actually both fought together in. The fandom seems to overestimate Ned's control over Robert in this war with little from the source material to back it up. 

Not the fandom. Cat. Robert too. 

"Come south with me, and I'll teach you how to laugh again," the king promised. "You helped me win this damnable throne, now help me hold it. We were meant to rule together

23 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Ned was perfectly fine with the 35k rebels taking on the 40k royals at the battle of the Trident. 

Was Ned at the trident? Besides, Rhegars plan was not great; Charging straight past the river into a warhammer.

25 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Stannis was attacking Storm's End, was Renly supposed to sit and watch while this took place? It took Renly around a month to get from Bitterbridge to Storm's End with his cavalry, we are talking another two months for him to wait for his infantry and bringing them even further away from kings landing. 

Yea, sure. SE will not fall in a day (short of what actually happend) Besides Renly says he doesnt care about taking KL in such a timely matter. In contrast he risks losing his supplies and wife.

28 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

None of is commanders, not the experienced Rowan or Tarly, thought that was needed and I'd be incredulous if Ned would have. Renly would be a laughing stock, his brother challenged him to battle with a fraction of his strength and Renly refused would be a huge blow. 

Its fine to be a laughing stock, as long as you win. And Tarly isnt all hes cracked up to be, whats he famous for, Duskendale? Lol

31 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He genuinely thought his brother with no real support, could be negotiated with.

No he did not.

He is my own blood, I will not have his head paraded about on a spear.”

“And if he yields?” Lord Tarly asked.

“Yields?” Lord Rowan laughed

35 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Stannis only goes to war because a foreign mystique tells him he is the chosen one, Renly could not know his otherwise sensible brother would listen to such claptrap. 

Also not true. Stannis goes to war because hes Robert's heir. Theres no reason to think Meli convinced Stannis into becoming king.

37 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well first of all Tyrion was inside, Stannis out. A siege is not a pitched battle, the walls of any settlement act as a multiplier against an enemy. 

Good point, Renly could have used your advice

38 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Secondly Stannis was winning against Tyrion, he lost when Tywin and the Tyrells joined the battle

 

Stannis was never winning. When Tywin arrived Stannis had lost all of his ships, except Saans, and was on the opposite side of the bay from KL. (How could he continue to attack?) Every gate to the city remained closed and the Red Keep didnt have a scratch. Stannis was winning nothing.

[Bernie Mac]

 

35 minutes ago, Salvadoe said:

I already said, someone who's not  reckless and who wouldn't unnecessarily risk lives.

Why do you keep ignoring the fact that all commanders, including Tarly, risk lives in battle. 

Look I'm sorry if you think I am offending you but you are making some incredibly dumb arguments.  The Vans role in battle is to be the first in battle, it is meant to be rushing into attack. The reserve, center, right, left can all be cautious, the Van is meant to be vainglorious, gung-ho. 

Leading the Van is not about subtlety, it is about attacking the enemy with as much force as possible. 

"Roose Bolton will have the rearguard, while I command the center. Greatjon, you shall lead the van against Moat Cailin. Your attack must be so fierce that the ironborn have no leisure to wonder if anyone is creeping down on them from the north."

I have repeatedly asked you and Peres what qualities the two of you think are needed to lead the Van and the two of you repeatedly ignored the question.  If you feel I am talking down to you it is probably because the two of you seem, in respects to some of the points on this discussion, have shown to be incapable of understanding the simple requirements of the what the position entails. 

35 minutes ago, Salvadoe said:

Why do you keep ignoring that.

Because it is not pertinent to the role in this battle. More often than not the people leading the Van in a pitched battle in this era are not selected due to their caution, but their ability to attack and win. 

35 minutes ago, Salvadoe said:

According to you, it's okay if Loras kills half of his men and almost die himself as long as he completes his objective as fast and shiny as possible.

Every scenario is different. In this case Loras could not wait 6-12 months to take Dragonstone with fewer military casualties as the Redwyne fleet would be stuck their with him, and the Reach would suffer far more than the men with Loras did. 

It was absolutely the right decision for the realm. 

 

35 minutes ago, Salvadoe said:

If that's so then I guess he is best choice. All those warriors you listed have more experience than Loras,

You keep on harping on about experience but that is not what it is important to leading the Van in attack. 

35 minutes ago, Salvadoe said:

Garlan led the attack on Blackwater yes and he's a seasoned warrior. 

No, he is not. He has fought in zero wars before this. 

35 minutes ago, Salvadoe said:

GRRM sets Tarly us a great commander,

A great soldier, which he is. 

35 minutes ago, Salvadoe said:

 

Tyrion and Oberyn praise him, I believe them. 

Tyrion does not, he points out that 20 years ago he led the Van and beat Robert, which is true. 20 years ago Robert led the Van that beat Rhaegar, that does not mean he is a good choice to lead the Van in the year 298. 

Oberyn does not mention Tarly once in the entire series. 

35 minutes ago, Salvadoe said:

Yeah he hoped Barristan would join him. He was short sighted in that. Why would honorable Barry join a usurper?

He joined Robert. 

35 minutes ago, Salvadoe said:

Cause Robert at least had the excuse of deposing a despotic king. 

You are wrong, he only joined after Aerys was murdered. While Aerys lived he served him. 

35 minutes ago, Salvadoe said:

Gimme names. 

Lady Dustin's uncle for one. 

He had kin he might have sent in his stead. An uncle famed for his prowess with an axe, a great-uncle who had fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

The likes of the Blackfish fought in the war of the Nine Penny wars, there were men available with greater war experience than either Robert or Ned, but the two of them, like all male nobles, were trained for war from an early age. 

35 minutes ago, Salvadoe said:

He listened only when it suited his purposes. 

Once again, moving the goalposts. You said he did not listen I gave a clear example of when he listened to what all but one of his war council were telling him to do. 

35 minutes ago, Salvadoe said:

He shouldn't have let Stannis choose the time of the attack and he should have attacked before dawn as Mathis and Randyll said. 

How does that change anything? Renly was not defeated because he was honourable, he was defeated because his brother used magic. 

"And have it said that I won by treachery, with an unchivalrous attack? Dawn was the chosen hour."

35 minutes ago, Salvadoe said:

His battle plan is literally to throw men at Stannis until he breaks.

Yup, Stannis has positioned himself against the Walls and garrison of Storm's End with a tiny force. 

What would your plan be? 

35 minutes ago, Salvadoe said:

 

It's pretty clear he's incompetent as a strategist/tactician. He could have surrounded Stannis,

How? He is at the walls of Storm's End, unless his horses can walk on water they can't surround him. 

Look I know you are going to disagree for the sake of disagreeing, but maybe read a bit more on the subject before making silly suggestions. 

35 minutes ago, Salvadoe said:

besieged him

he can't exactly do that, he has no way of surrounding him and Stannis has a navy. 

35 minutes ago, Salvadoe said:

brought his archers and infantryman along, cut off his supplies, but nope. He would have won of course but he'd throw away more lives than needed. 

he'd throw away few casualties. Stannis was facing an four times as large, similar to the force he faced on the Blackwater and there was minimal casualties from the reach and westerlands in that battle. 

35 minutes ago, Salvadoe said:

There wasn't even a need to have gone himself to confront Stannis, he should have sent someone in his stead.

How can he negotiate by sending someone else? 

35 minutes ago, Salvadoe said:

Tywin didn't even register Renly as a threat because he was crawling at a snails pace. Conditions in war can change all the time.

exactly, so waiting for another month for his infantry to arrive would be foolish, especially as it takes them further away from Kings Landing.

 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Not the fandom. Cat. Robert too. 

"Come south with me, and I'll teach you how to laugh again," the king promised. "You helped me win this damnable throne, now help me hold it. We were meant to rule together

At no point in that quote does it back up your original point  "only Robert had always had Eddard Stark to temper his boldness with caution." 

 Of course Ned helped him the war, at no point has that been disputed, without the Northern army (or vale army) Robert would never have been king. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Was Ned at the trident?

yup, the only battle we know the two of them fought together in the war of the Usurper. Robert had fought in many battles before that without the need for Ned to temper his boldness with caution, nor does anyone make that assumption about the battle of the Trident. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea, sure. SE will not fall in a day (short of what actually happend) Besides Renly says he doesnt care about taking KL in such a timely matter. In contrast he risks losing his supplies and wife.

how does he risk losing his supplies and his wife? 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

No he did not.

He actually did, he offers him Storm's End, the castle Stannis has spent years sulking about not having. 

Renly vastly outnumbers him, there is no reason to even talk to him if he did not think he could be reasoned with. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Also not true. Stannis goes to war because hes Robert's heir. Theres no reason to think Meli convinced Stannis into becoming king.

Stannis sits on his island doing nothing until after both Robb and Renly have declared themselves king.  He only does so after they have and only after Mel has assured him victory and the gain of Renly's men. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Stannis was never winning.

Yeah, he was.  The Gold cloaks were fleeing from the battle, Cersei was preparing for the worst. The city was falling, it was only the intervention of the Tyrells and Tywin that stopped it. 

 

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

At no point in that quote does it back up your original point  "only Robert had always had Eddard Stark to temper his boldness with caution." 

 

That was Cats point. I just copied and pasted. 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

yup, the only battle we know the two of them fought together in the war of the Usurper. Robert had fought in many battles before that without the need for Ned to temper his boldness with caution, nor does anyone make that assumption about the battle of the Trident. 

Interesting. I thought he wasnt because he makes it to the capitol before any other rebal army, whatever.

Attacking a river is not good strategy, the Trident is a big river. So is Roberts hammer.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

how does he risk losing his supplies and his wife? 

Theyre far from his command

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He actually did, he offers him Storm's End, the castle Stannis has spent years sulking about not having. 

Renly vastly outnumbers him, there is no reason to even talk to him if he did not think he could be reasoned with. 

Stannis is famous for his stubbornness, surley his brother would know that, but whatever your just arguing with Cat.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Stannis sits on his island doing nothing until after both Robb and Renly have declared themselves king.  He only does so after they have and only after Mel has assured him victory and the gain of Renly's men. 

Stannis was already king before the prolouge of acok. He then sends Davos to Renlys lands to convince them Stannis is king. Mels plan for taking Renlys army comes later.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah, he was.  The Gold cloaks were fleeing from the battle, Cersei was preparing for the worst. The city was falling, it was only the intervention of the Tyrells and Tywin that stopped it. 

 

Some, maybe most gold cloaks were fleeing. Not the whole army, not Bronn or Ser Balon Swann or all the soldiers that got knighted. Cersei was planning the worst from the beginning, hence Illyn Payne, she has no faith in Tyrion. The city was not falling, it wasnt even being attacked when the reinforcements arrived. Would you like to comment on Stannis having 0 non pirate ships,  being stuck on the opposite side of the bay, or all gates remaining closed?

[Ivan Tsarevich]

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

yup, the only battle we know the two of them fought together in the war of the Usurper. Robert had fought in many battles before that without the need for Ned to temper his boldness with caution, nor does anyone make that assumption about the battle of the Trident.

Battle of the Bells.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, TsarGrey said:

Battle of the Bells.

Ned and Hoster commanded, Robert was basically a captive in this battle. It is not really an example of them working together. 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

That was Cats point. I just copied and pasted. 

yeah, I can imagine Cat does think that, she has a pretty high opinion of her family which is not always grounded in reality. 

But then the reader has a bit more knowledge on the matter.  When Ned hears Robert' reaction to the dead Targ babies he loses his shit (with good reason) and races off with Robert's Van to go to Storm's End. He did not take the entire army with him even though the Reach would have certainly had more than the 5k with Stannis. Similarly he only takes 6 men to the Tower of Joy, 5 of them dying in the process. 

She assumes that Ned would have waited and taken his full force but there is little to show that he actually put this practice to work. 

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Interesting. I thought he wasnt because he makes it to the capitol before any other rebal army, whatever.

Robert picked up an injury so the Van raced ahead, leaving the main strength back at the Trident. Once again proving that Cat's theory that Ned would only face an enemy with his full strength as something of a myth. 

Disclaimer: I find Cat to be one of the most politically astute characters in the series, but she is a female and her education would reflect this, her military knowledge would be limited compared to pretty much all the male nobles who would have had years being drilled on this. 

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Theyre far from his command

He is in his homeland with a 20k army, surrounded by his vassals and their food stores, she is in her father's homeland with a 60k army. Neither were in danger by the accepted knowledge of the day. 

Renly was killed by magic, he would have still been killed by magic if he brought his entire army, he would still have been killed by magic if the North, Riverlands, Westerlands and Iron Islands armies all swore him fealty and were with him. 

Renly was not killed because he made a military mistake, he was killed because his foe had a weapon that no one else knew existed. 

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Stannis is famous for his stubbornness, surley his brother would know that, but whatever your just arguing with Cat.

And yet despite his stubbornness he said nothing to Robert about the incest, there is nine months between Arryn's death and Robert's. Clearly, despite his stubbornness he was well aware that being stubborn was not enough and he was not willing to risk the consequences of accusing the Queen. 

Stannis, despite his stubbornness, only declares himself king after both Joffrey, Renly and Robb. It took three months after his brother's death before he too called himself king and only when Mel told him the god favored him. 

Stannis was not on board with Robert usurping the throne, but he accepted it. Stannis was not happy with Renly being given Storm's End, but he accepted it. 

Renly thinking that Stannis would accept it is not that hard to grasp as logically Stannis does not have the military support to win the crown, he does not even have the military support win any of the realms. Logically Renly is offering him Storm's End and the opportunity to be a Great lord, most people would accept that deal. 

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Stannis was already king before the prolouge of acok.

both Robb and Renly make themselves king before Stannis does. 

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He then sends Davos to Renlys lands to convince them Stannis is king. Mels plan for taking Renlys army comes later.

The fact that he could not convince anyone would have been were most people give up on the idea. 

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Some, maybe most gold cloaks were fleeing. Not the whole army,

No, but enough. 

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not Bronn or Ser Balon Swann or all the soldiers that got knighted.

Sure, but that does not change the fact that they were losing and were saved

 "Since the night of the battle. Lord Tywin saved us all. The smallfolk say it was King Renly's ghost, but wiser men know better. It was your father and Lord Tyrell, with the Knight of Flowers and Lord Littlefinger. They rode through the ashes and took the usurper Stannis in the rear. It was a great victory, and now Lord Tywin has settled into the Tower of the Hand to help His Grace set the realm to rights, gods be praised."

 

 

[Ivan Tsarevich]

14 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Ned and Hoster commanded, Robert was basically a captive in this battle. It is not really an example of them working together.

It was a still battle where they were both active combatants. But I concede it would be pretty hard for Bob to be involved in planning, such as that was.

[Hugorfonics]

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

yeah, I can imagine Cat does think that, she has a pretty high opinion of her family which is not always grounded in reality. 

Im not sure thats true. She disagrees with Ned and Edmure a few times, more times in her mind. And shes constantly doing her best to not scoled Robb in front of his men.

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

But then the reader has a bit more knowledge on the matter.  When Ned hears Robert' reaction to the dead Targ babies he loses his shit (with good reason) and races off with Robert's Van to go to Storm's End. He did not take the entire army with him even though the Reach would have certainly had more than the 5k with Stannis. Similarly he only takes 6 men to the Tower of Joy, 5 of them dying in the process. 

She assumes that Ned would have waited and taken his full force but there is little to show that he actually put this practice to work. 

Robert picked up an injury so the Van raced ahead, leaving the main strength back at  the Trident. Once again proving that Cat's theory that Ned would only face an enemy with his full strength as something of a myth .

The war was over after dragonspawn, it was also on its last legs after Rhegar died. Stannis was freshly crowned and ready to fight (at least had the illusion)

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 Disclaimer: I find Cat to be one of the most politically astute characters in the series, but she is a female and her education would reflect this, her military knowledge would be limited compared to pretty much all the male nobles who would have had years being drilled on this. 

That would make sense, but she has a good grasp of city defending and overall strategy, at WW she was deciphering the sounds of the battle.

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He is in his homeland with a 20k army, surrounded by his vassals and their food stores, she is in her father's homeland with a 60k army. Neither were in danger by the accepted knowledge of the day. 

Defeat would put them in danger. Resting your crown on one battle isnt good insurance. Mix that with charging at the sun because Stannis said ill see you at dawn, you got fatuous stew.

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Renly was killed by magic, he would have still been killed by magic if he brought his entire army, he would still have been killed by magic if the North, Riverlands, Westerlands and Iron Islands armies all swore him fealty and were with him. 

Renly was not killed because he made a military mistake, he was killed because his foe had a weapon that no one else knew existed. 

Of course. That doesn't change the fact that he was making military mistakes.

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

And yet despite his stubbornness he said nothing to Robert about the incest, there is nine months between Arryn's death and Robert's. Clearly, despite his stubbornness he was well aware that being stubborn was not enough and he was not willing to risk the consequences of accusing the Queen. 

Stannis, despite his stubbornness, only declares himself king after both Joffrey, Renly and Robb.

What am I his lawyer?

Stannis was at Dragonstone when Robert died and Ned tried to make Stannis king during the time he was consolidating his forces. Its very likely that he announced his hegemony to Davos and them after Roberts death, before we are privy to Stannis' court

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

only when Mel told him the god favored him. 

Where does it say that? 

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Stannis was not on board with Robert usurping the throne, but he accepted it. Stannis was not happy with Renly being given Storm's End, but he accepted it. 

Renly thinking that Stannis would accept it is not that hard to grasp as logically Stannis does not have the military support to win the crown, he does not even have the military support win any of the realms. Logically Renly is offering him Storm's End and the opportunity to be a Great lord, most people would accept that deal. 

Stannis isnt most people. 

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

both Robb and Renly make themselves king before Stannis does. 

The fact that he could not convince anyone would have been were most people give up on the idea. 

Whats that got to do with it?

Again, Stannis isnt most people.

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, but enough. 

Sure, but that does not change the fact that they were losing and were saved

 "Since the night of the battle. Lord Tywin saved us all. The smallfolk say it was King Renly's ghost, but wiser men know better. It was your father and Lord Tyrell, with the Knight of Flowers and Lord Littlefinger. They rode through the ashes and took the usurper Stannis in the rear. It was a great victory, and now Lord Tywin has settled into the Tower of the Hand to help His Grace set the realm to rights, gods be praised."

 

 

Enough for what?

At what point of the battle are they losing? When the bay blows up? When the chain engulfs the entire navy? When the bridge of boats break and Stannis is left back at square one?

You dont believe Cat quotes, I dont belive Maesters ( Lady Dustins right, damn grey mice, talk about dragonslaying.) who werent at the battle unlike us through the pov of Tyrion and Davos.

So your not gonna comment on Stannis' lack of navy, position or any meaningful destruction of KL? 

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im not sure thats true. She disagrees with Ned and Edmure a few times,

oh, not for Edmure, to Cat Edmure will always be the younger incompetent brother. But in regards with Ned and her children she thinks the son shines from their derriere's(which is pretty natural for a mother) . 

Rather than think bad of the man who fathered a bastard shortly after they were married she instead chooses to ignore it. 

Of course she can disagree with them, that was not my point, but that she has an over inflated sense of who they are. Perfectly normal for mothers.

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more times in her mind. And shes constantly doing her best to not scoled Robb in front of his men.

No, that is not actually true. The only real time I can think it happening is when Robb is acting petulant outside of the Twins, but that soon changes to pride from Cat when he accepts the price to gain the Freys.  If it constantly happens you will have no problem finding three examples. 

What you may be confusing with is that Cat has become aware that every time she tries to offer her son advice he seems to take it the wrong way, so much so that for much of the journey to the Twins Cat feels he is purposefully ignoring her. 

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The war was over after dragonspawn, it was also on its last legs after Rhegar died.

Except it was not, Stannis was still being held under siege. 

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Stannis was freshly crowned and ready to fight (at least had the illusion)

As were the Reach army. Why do you think they are still at Storm's End is they were no longer in the fight. 

Now you are correct, the likelihood is that they would back down but their army was far larger than the 5k with Stannis while Ned only brought the van with him meaning he likely had less than Renly's 20k. 

The scenario was exactly the same, two armies besieging Storm's End, Ned did not bring the entire army with him, he brought as many as he felt he needed. Ditto Renly. 

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That would make sense, but she has a good grasp of city defending and overall strategy, at WW she was deciphering the sounds of the battle.

She was clueless about Whispering Wood, she was fearful that Robb was losing. 

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Defeat would put them in danger.

they were never in danger of getting beat, The numbers are too big a factor, especially when the knights with Renly are more likely to be better trained and equipped than much of the rabble with Stannis. 

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Resting your crown on one battle isnt good insurance. Mix that with charging at the sun because Stannis said ill see you at dawn, you got fatuous stew.

lol the sun. The amount of times the sun gets trotted out in this conversation you would think not a single army in history had ever won a battle when facing the same direction as the sun. 

How many extra men would Renly need to discount the awesome properties of a sunny day, 50k, 100k. Would he need 500k to make it safe? 

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Of course. That doesn't change the fact that he was making military mistakes.

He actually had not. Not liking his decision does not mean they are a mistake, not when he has a valid reason for doing so. 

He wants to in the crown, one of his main strengths he has is being loved by the smallfolk, him winning battles, against his own brother no less, through treachery is going to be a mark against him. Once Stannis threatened to destroy him but what Renly could control was the manner of Stannis' defeat. 

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What am I his lawyer?

Mate, you claimed because a character was stubborn that he could not be reasonable when he had no chance of getting his way, there is plenty of evidence that he has reluctantly compromised. 

Logically he can't win the throne with 5k. It is not far fetched to think that Stannis would understand that and be placated with being given Storm's End for his support. 

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Stannis was at Dragonstone when Robert died and Ned tried to make Stannis king during the time he was consolidating his forces. Its very likely that he announced his hegemony to Davos and them after Roberts death, before we are privy to Stannis' court

He did nothing for nine months after Arryn was murdered and when Robert was murdered and Ned imprisoned also nothing. He only acts when the realm is fractured and there is three other kings. 

Stannis not wanting to go public with his crown speaks volumes. 

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Where does it say that? 

"You are the rightful heir to your brother Robert, the true Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men," he said desperately, "but even so, you cannot hope to triumph without allies."

"He has an ally," Lady Selyse said. "R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow."

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Stannis isnt most people. 

He may not well be, but most people in his position would give into common sense. There is nothing in Stannis' past to suggest that he would be that idiotic 

Stubborness is not stupidity, one can certainly lead to the other but plenty of stubborn people can be made to see sense. 

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Whats that got to do with it?

it is easier to win the crown from a fractured kingdom than it is united one. The more people rebel against the crown the better it is for Stannis. 

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Again, Stannis isnt most people.

That is not really a solid argument, both Renly and Cat were convinced he could be negotiated with, as does Cressen, the man who raised him. As is the man he appointed as his first Hand

Stannis may well not be most people, but the perception from others is that he could be reasoned with. 

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Enough for what?

read the previous exchange, it should be obvious what I was replying to. 

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At what point of the battle are they losing? When the bay blows up? When the chain engulfs the entire navy? When the bridge of boats break and Stannis is left back at square one?

“Oh, gods,” an old woman wailed. “We’re lost, the battle’s lost, she’s running.” Several children were crying. They can smell the fear. Sansa found herself alone on the dais. Should she stay here, or run after the queen and plead for her life?

She never knew why she got to her feet, but she did. “Don’t be afraid,” she told them loudly. “The queen has raised the drawbridge. This is the safest place in the city. There’s thick walls, the moat, the spikes…”

…Sansa raised her hands for quiet. “Joffrey’s come back to the castle. He’s not hurt. They’re still fighting, that’s all I know, they’re fighting bravely. The queen will be back soon.” The last was a lie, but she had to soothe them.

They were losing, Stannis was winning.

 

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So your not gonna comment on Stannis' lack of navy, position or any meaningful destruction of KL? 

eh? Stannis had taken considerable casualties in the attack, Tyrion had done remarkably well in killing as many as he had, but he was still losing the battle. That is just a fact, no one thinks Tyrion beat Stannis on the blackwater. 

[Hugorfonics]

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

oh, not for Edmure, to Cat Edmure will always be the younger incompetent brother. But in regards with Ned and her children she thinks the son shines from their derriere's(which is pretty natural for a mother) . 

Rather than think bad of the man who fathered a bastard shortly after they were married she instead chooses to ignore it. 

Of course she can disagree with them, that was not my point, but that she has an over inflated sense of who they are. Perfectly normal for mothers.

No, that is not actually true. The only real time I can think it happening is when Robb is acting petulant outside of the Twins, but that soon changes to pride from Cat when he accepts the price to gain the Freys.  If it constantly happens you will have no problem finding three examples. 

What you may be confusing with is that Cat has become aware that every time she tries to offer her son advice he seems to take it the wrong way, so much so that for much of the journey to the Twins Cat feels he is purposefully ignoring her. 

Cat ignored the bastard? Sure. She ignores the issue, not really. She thinks about it constantly and even tells Robb that Jon can never be lord of Winterfell.

Three examples? Ill use your one on Frey. Then theres who to command the other army, Greatjon or Roose. Then theres Theon.

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Except it was not, Stannis was still being held under siege. 

As were the Reach army. Why do you think they are still at Storm's End is they were no longer in the fight. 

Now you are correct, the likelihood is that they would back down but their army was far larger than the 5k with Stannis while Ned only brought the van with him meaning he likely had less than Renly's 20k. 

The scenario was exactly the same, two armies besieging Storm's End, Ned did not bring the entire army with him, he brought as many as he felt he needed. Ditto Renly. 

By Mace who has no reason to fight, and with Davos on speeddial. The war was basically over, Targ was destroyed.

Theyre still at Stormsend because Mace didnt know what else to do, theyre not a fierce fighting force because theyve been idle this whole war laying seige.

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

they were never in danger of getting beat, The numbers are too big a factor, especially when the knights with Renly are more likely to be better trained and equipped than much of the rabble with Stannis. 

Dude, numbers arent everything. I sighted both of Stannis' only (in asoiaf) battles, theres also Robb, Dany , etc. Most of the time stratagems are the turning part in battle, hardly ever numbers.

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol the sun. The amount of times the sun gets trotted out in this conversation you would think not a single army in history had ever won a battle when facing the same direction as the sun. 

How many extra men would Renly need to discount the awesome properties of a sunny day, 50k, 100k. Would he need 500k to make it safe? 

The suns a thing

The Mountain snorted contemptuously, and came on . . . and in that moment, the sun broke through the low clouds that had hidden the sky since dawn.

The sun of Dorne, Tyrion told himself, but it was Gregor Clegane who moved first to put the sun at his back. This is a dim and brutal man, but he has a warrior's instincts.

 

Lol, in this conversation?

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He actually had not. Not liking his decision does not mean they are a mistake, not when he has a valid reason for doing so. 

He wants to in the crown, one of his main strengths he has is being loved by the smallfolk, him winning battles, against his own brother no less, through treachery is going to be a mark against him. Once Stannis threatened to destroy him but what Renly could control was the manner of Stannis' defeat. 

There are pros and cons to every decision, in the case for Renly the valid does not outweigh the fatuous. 

Obeying your opponents time and location because of honor is not a good reason to charge into the sun. Coaxing powerless smalfolk to rationalize your kinslaying is not a valid reason for fighting on his terms.

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Mate, you claimed because a character was stubborn that he could not be reasonable when he had no chance of getting his way, there is plenty of evidence that he has reluctantly compromised. 

Logically he can't win the throne with 5k. It is not far fetched to think that Stannis would understand that and be placated with being given Storm's End for his support. 

He did nothing for nine months after Arryn was murdered and when Robert was murdered and Ned imprisoned also nothing. He only acts when the realm is fractured and there is three other kings. 

Stannis not wanting to go public with his crown speaks volumes. 

Compromise his crown?

Davos was no courtier, and he did not even try to blunt his words. "It is not in Stannis to yield, so long as he knows his claim is just. No more than he can unsay his words against Joffrey, when he believes them true. As for the marriage, Tommen was born of the same incest as Joffrey, and His Grace would sooner see Shireen dead than wed to such."

A vein throbbed in Florent's forehead. "He has no choice."

"You are wrong, my lord. He can choose to die a king."

 

Stannis certainly schemed before his coronation and having the realm fighting each other could be helpful for him, but theres nothing to suggest he crowned himself on the behest of Meli

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

"You are the rightful heir to your brother Robert, the true Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men," he said desperately, "but even so, you cannot hope to triumph without allies."

"He has an ally," Lady Selyse said. "R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow."

that is after Stannis is king. I asked for the proof that Meli persuaded Stannis to crown himself. Not that Selyse thinks hes Azor Ahai

 

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That is not really a solid argument, both Renly and Cat were convinced he could be negotiated with, as does Cressen, the man who raised him. As is the man he appointed as his first Hand

Where does it say that? Stannis invited Renly and Robb sent Cat. As for Cressen, hes a grey mouse whos allegiance could not be to a strong king. That Hand died for it.

 

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

read the previous exchange, it should be obvious what I was replying to. 

“Oh, gods,” an old woman wailed. “We’re lost, the battle’s lost, she’s running.” Several children were crying. They can smell the fear. Sansa found herself alone on the dais. Should she stay here, or run after the queen and plead for her life?

She never knew why she got to her feet, but she did. “Don’t be afraid,” she told them loudly. “The queen has raised the drawbridge. This is the safest place in the city. There’s thick walls, the moat, the spikes…”

…Sansa raised her hands for quiet. “Joffrey’s come back to the castle. He’s not hurt. They’re still fighting, that’s all I know, they’re fighting bravely. The queen will be back soon.” The last was a lie, but she had to soothe them.

They were losing, Stannis was winning.

Yes, that Tyrion was losing. Except he wasnt.

Lol, that quote supports me. Drawbridge, thick walls, fighting bravely. 

Picture the battle starting, either at Kingswood with Timmit or Blackwater with Imry, at what point is Stannis winning?

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh? Stannis had taken considerable casualties in the attack, Tyrion had done remarkably well in killing as many as he had, but he was still losing the battle. That is just a fact, no one thinks Tyrion beat Stannis on the blackwater. 

What do you mean no one thinks it? 

What nostrils Tyrion had left must surely have flared. "I saved your bloody city, it seems to me."

 

Varys had escorted him through the tunnels, but they never spoke until they emerged beside the Blackwater, where Tyrion had won a famous victory and lost a nose. 

 

"His uncle, it's said. The Imp."

Stannis ground his teeth. "A dangerous man. I learned that on the Blackwater.

[Bernie Mac]

14 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Cat ignored the bastard? Sure. She ignores the issue, not really. She thinks about it constantly and even tells Robb that Jon can never be lord of Winterfell.

Which he can't, how does this change my point? She does not take her anger out on Ned, the man who cheated on her shortly after they were married and then to add insult to injury brought the child home rather than fostered him with an ally. 

Ned is the one who has disrespected her in this and yet she chooses to ignore blaming him for it. 

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Three examples? Ill use your one on Frey.

wow, you can't even think of three despite claiming that she is constantly doing it, that speaks volumes

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Then theres who to command the other army, Greatjon or Roose.

How is that an example of Cat scolding her son? 

The Greatjon is always saying that we should smash Lord Tywin. I thought I'd give him the honor."

 It was his first misstep, but how to make him see it without wounding his fledgling confidence? "Your father once told me that the Greatjon was as fearless as any man he had ever known."

That is nowhere near an example of scolding. Do you consider any advice given to you as scolding. 

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Then theres Theon.

Then there is Theon what? 

"Who better to treat with Balon Greyjoy than his son?"

"Jason Mallister," offered Catelyn. "Tytos Blackwood. Stevron Frey. Anyone . . . but not Theon."

If you are talking about the time she suggested that he pick someone else, that is not a scolding. Either you are not sure what the word means or you are incredibly sensitive to other people giving you advice as these two examples you have given are not examples of Robb being scolded. 

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By Mace who has no reason to fight, and with Davos on speeddial. The war was basically over, Targ was destroyed.

Yes, the war was basically over because Mace could not possibly win on his own, the same is exactly true of Stannis and his 5k. Mace actually stood a better chance of winning the throne at that point than Stannis did. 

Ned, like Renly, was convinced that the siegers of Storm's End could be reasoned with so he only took the van rather than wait for the whole army to come with him. It is exactly the same as Renly. 

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Theyre still at Stormsend because Mace didnt know what else to do, theyre not a fierce fighting force because theyve been idle this whole war laying seige.

But they are still at war. Ned did not know, but he was fairly sure. The same is true of Renly. 

And it does not take an 80k army to beat 5k. Renly would have been a laughing stock if he had his infantry march back south, in the opposite direction of kings landing, because 20k Knights and the garrion and walls of Storm's End was not enough to finish his brother. 

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Dude, numbers arent everything.

No, equipment and quality of troops are also factors and Renly had the cream of the Reach and Stormlands while Stannis had sellswords and onion knights. Renly had

• four times as many troops
• better quality troops
• Stannis trapped between the walls of Storm's End and Renly's army

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I sighted both of Stannis' only (in asoiaf) battles,

which ones? 

the time he attacked a camp of wildling women and children with zero defenses? 

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theres also Robb,

Robb has never won a battle where he did not have a clear advantage

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Dany , etc.

which battles? 

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Most of the time stratagems are the turning part in battle, hardly ever numbers.

name them, because I think you are wrong. 

Numbers and quality of troops are the key to medieval battle.

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The suns a thing

lol no, it is not. Not a normal sunny day in a temperate climate it is not. 

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The Mountain snorted contemptuously, and came on . . . and in that moment, the sun broke through the low clouds that had hidden the sky since dawn.

The sun of Dorne, Tyrion told himself, but it was Gregor Clegane who moved first to put the sun at his back. This is a dim and brutal man, but he has a warrior's instincts.

eh? what do you think this proves? 

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There are pros and cons to every decision, in the case for Renly the valid does not outweigh the fatuous. 

Sure they do. 

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Obeying your opponents time and location because of honor is not a good reason to charge into the sun.

It is when Renly wants to win the battle with honour and is aware that Stannis, even with the sun on his side, does not have the military to win. 

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Coaxing powerless smalfolk to rationalize your kinslaying is not a valid reason for fighting on his terms.

It was for Renly. The only reason he has a shot at being King is because he has ably played the PR game, being loved by the smallfolk and many of the Lords who proclaimed him king. It is in his best interests to try his best to maintain that image when possible. 

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Compromise his crown?

What crown? He's a pretender to the throne with a miniscule amount of support. Renly is offering him Storm's End to compromise, a more than fair price. The man Stannis chose to be his first Hand was also convinced that Stannis would compromise. 

The argument is not what Stannis would do, it is what Renly beleived he would do, he was under the impression that Storm's End would be enough. 

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Davos was no courtier, and he did not even try to blunt his words. "It is not in Stannis to yield, so long as he knows his claim is just. No more than he can unsay his words against Joffrey, when he believes them true. As for the marriage, Tommen was born of the same incest as Joffrey, and His Grace would sooner see Shireen dead than wed to such."

and Davos seems to hold Stannis in the highest regard, but you are missing the point. Renly is convinced that Stannis would have done what the majority of other people would have done in Stannis' unwinnable position. 

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Stannis certainly schemed before his coronation and having the realm fighting each other could be helpful for him, but theres nothing to suggest he crowned himself on the behest of Meli

she told him her God wanted him to be king, she is the only person he was really listening to in that book and it was Mel who told him that her god saw him victorious against Renly and that he would take his army. 

the books seem to indicate that she played a key role in him taking the crown. 

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that is after Stannis is king. I asked for the proof that Meli persuaded Stannis to crown himself. Not that Selyse thinks hes Azor Ahai

It is the same chapter. There is zero mention of Stannis being 'king' before that. 

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Where does it say that? Stannis invited Renly and Robb sent Cat. As for Cressen, hes a grey mouse whos allegiance could not be to a strong king. That Hand died for it.

they are willing to negotiate with him. 

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Yes, that Tyrion was losing. Except he wasnt.

sure he was, it is stated there in that quote. no one was claiming he was winning. 

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Lol, that quote supports me. Drawbridge, thick walls, fighting bravely. 

“Oh, gods,” an old woman wailed. “We’re lost, the battle’s lost, she’s running.” 

lol, yeah that really supports the idea that Tyrion was winning. but I am tired of this argument with you so have opened it to the forum instead. 

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What do you mean no one thinks it? 

No one who lives in their world thinks it. 

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What nostrils Tyrion had left must surely have flared. "I saved your bloody city, it seems to me."

Which it can be argued he did, he was to delay Stannis enough that Tywin and the Tyrells could get their in time to beat Stannis. 

Tyrion can 'save' the city without actually having beaten Stannis.

 

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"His uncle, it's said. The Imp."

Stannis ground his teeth. "A dangerous man. I learned that on the Blackwater.

yes, Tyrion killed thousands of his men, of course he considers him dangerous. That is not Stannis claiming that Tyrion beat him. 

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

you are incredibly sensitive to other people giving you advice

Lets go with that lol

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes, the war was basically over because Mace could not possibly win on his own, the same is exactly true of Stannis and his 5k. Mace actually stood a better chance of winning the throne at that point than Stannis did. 

No its not, because Mace has nothing to fight for while Stannis is the king

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

which ones? 

the time he attacked a camp of wildling women and children with zero defenses? 

Robb has never won a battle where he did not have a clear advantage

which battles? 

name them, because I think you are wrong. 

Numbers and quality of troops are the key to medieval battle.

Yea dude. With fucking giants and mammoths. Wall, KL, WW, Sack of Winterfell, Yunaki, Merreen, pretty much every battle short of Duskendale. Strategies are the key to every battle.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol no, it is not. Not a normal sunny day in a temperate climate it is not. 

It was for Renly. The only reason he has a shot at being King is because he has ably played the PR game, being loved by the smallfolk and many of the Lords who proclaimed him king. It is in his best interests to try his best to maintain that image when possible. 

Your right. Elements dont matter.

Only smallfolk matter, got it.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

What crown? He's a pretender to the throne with a miniscule amount of support. Renly is offering him Storm's End to compromise, a more than fair price. The man Stannis chose to be his first Hand was also convinced that Stannis would compromise. 

The argument is not what Stannis would do, it is what Renly beleived he would do, he was under the impression that Storm's End would be enough. 

And that Hand was an idiot, I guess as dumb as Renly (tell me where Renly says "I can convince Stannis"?)

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

she told him her God wanted him to be king, she is the only person he was really listening to in that book and it was Mel who told him that her god saw him victorious against Renly and that he would take his army. 

the books seem to indicate that she played a key role in him taking the crown. 

He didnt really listen to her until asos, otherwise shed be at Blackwater. Yes she told Stannis how to take Renlys men, but I never got the indication that she had a hand in him crowning himself.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

“Oh, gods,” an old woman wailed. “We’re lost, the battle’s lost, she’s running.” 

lol, yeah that really supports the idea that Tyrion was winning. but I am tired of this argument with you so have opened it to the forum instead. 

No one who lives in their world thinks it. 

Words are wind. Dont believe everything you hear from nameless old woman. If anyone, Sansa. Though its safer to believe Tyrion who "won a famous victory" clearly someone believes it

[Bernie Mac]

34 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

No its not, because Mace has nothing to fight for while Stannis is the king

Except he does, there are still two (soon to be three) Targayens safe and sound on Dragonstone. The reason he was fighting still exists. 

He is convinced to give up as with Rhaegar's army defeated and the Westerlands joining the rebels the chances of a Targaryen victory are incredibly slim. Stannis is in the same boat. 

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Yea dude. With fucking giants and mammoths.

Soon they were among the tents. It was the usual wildling camp; a sprawling jumble of cookfires and piss pits, children and goats wandering freely, sheep bleating among the trees, horse hides pegged up to dry. There was no plan to it, no order, no defenses. But there were men and women and animals everywhere.

Many ignored him, but for every one who went about his business there were ten who stopped to stare; children squatting by the fires, old women in dog carts, cave dwellers with painted faces, raiders with claws and snakes and severed heads painted on their shields, all turned to have a look. 

 

Two paragraphs later Stannis attacked it, not only are the knights far better equipped and trained than the Wildlings, but they are with their women and children. 

 

Stannis had the advantages. 

 

 

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Wall,

lol are you serious? Do you really not understand the natural advantage of being behind the walls of a castle are? 

 

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KL,

Tywin and the Tyrell's had more men than Stannis

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WW,

Robb had over 6k while Jaime 2.5k at the battle of Whispering Wood. 

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Sack of Winterfell,

Again it comes to quality of troops. Ramsay's were mainly horsed, while we are told of how inexperienced and young Rodrik's men were. 

 

The oldest were men grown, seventeen and eighteen years from the day of their naming. One was past twenty. Most were younger, sixteen or less......."Yet given time … Ser Rodrik has the truth of it, we need men to walk the walls. Your lord father took the cream of his guard to King's Landing, and your brother took the rest, along with all the likely lads for leagues around. Many will not come back to us, and we must needs find the men to take their places."

 

Quality will often beat quantity, I thought I made that clear in my previous post

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Yunaki, Merreen,

Do you have the numbers for these? Does Dany not have dragons?

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pretty much every battle short of Duskendale.

lol no. 

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Your right. Elements dont matter.

 

Extreme elements do, a regular sunny day in a temperate climate is not the gamechanger you imagine it to be. 

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Only smallfolk matter, got it.

lol who said they are the only thing to matter. come on, no need to resort to petty straw man arguments. 

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And that Hand was an idiot,

no, he had common sense.  

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I guess as dumb as Renly (tell me where Renly says "I can convince Stannis"?)

luckily most of GRRM's audience can comprehend what is happening without the  need for him to spell everything out. 

"I have twice that number here," Renly said, "and this is only part of my strength. Mace Tyrell remains at Highgarden with another ten thousand, I have a strong garrison holding Storm's End, and soon enough the Dornishmen will join me with all their power. And never forget my brother Stannis, who holds Dragonstone and commands the lords of the narrow sea."

Renly is convinced that he will eventually join him and offers him a great price in return

A man should never refuse to taste a peach," Renly said as he tossed the stone away. "He may never get the chance again. Life is short, Stannis. Remember what the Starks say. Winter is coming." He wiped his mouth with the back of his hand.

"I did not come here to be threatened, either."

 "Nor were you," Renly snapped back. "When I make threats, you'll know it. If truth be told, I've never liked you, Stannis, but you are my own blood, and I have no wish to slay you. So if it is Storm's End you want, take it . . . as a brother's gift. As Robert once gave it to me, I give it to you."

Both brothers were under the impression they could convince each other, it is the only reason they met. 

 

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He didnt really listen to her until asos,

 

yeah, he did. It was her dream that brought him to Storm's End to gain Renly's army

Her flames do not lie. She saw Renly's doom as well. On Dragonstone she saw it, and told Selyse. Lord Velaryon and your friend Salladhor Saan would have had me sail against Joffrey, but Melisandre told me that if I went to Storm's End, I would win the best part of my brother's power, and she was right."

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otherwise shed be at Blackwater. Yes she told Stannis how to take Renlys men, but I never got the indication that she had a hand in him crowning himself.

if Stannis has no army he can't become king of Westeros, he is perfectly aware of that

_{“Your Grace,” Stannis repeated bitterly. “You mock me with a king’s style, yet what am I king of? Dragonstone and a few rocks in the narrow sea, there is my kingdom.” He descended the steps of his chair to stand before the table, his shadow falling across the mouth of the Blackwater Rush and the painted forest where King’s Landing now stood. There he stood, brooding over the realm he sought to claim, so near at hand and yet so far away. “Tonight I am to sup with my lords bannermen, such as they are. Celtigar, Velaryon, Bar Emmon, the whole paltry lot of them. A poor crop, if truth be told, but they are what my brothers have left me. That Lysene pirate Salladhor Saan will be there with the latest tally of what I owe him, and Morosh the Myrman will caution me with talk of tides and autumn gales, while Lord Sunglass mutters piously of the will of the Seven. Celtigar will want to know which storm lords are joining us. Velaryon will threaten to take his levies home unless we strike at once. What am I to tell them? What must I do now?”} 

Mel convinces him he will gain an army if he goes to Storm's End

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Words are wind. Dont believe everything you hear from nameless old woman.

wow, first we are not allowed to beleive the maesters and now the smallfolk. 

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If anyone, Sansa. Though its safer to believe Tyrion who "won a famous victory" clearly someone believes it

tyrion is the only one who believes that despite the fact he was in a coma during the actual victory. 

[BlackLightning]

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 11:57 AM, Arthur Peres said:

Bernie thinks he is fit to lead Renly's vanguard

I'm think he is there because he is his Renly's boyfriend, and Renly is playing favorites putting unfit persons into key positions.

Oh.

I see.

@Bernie Mac Loras is one of the greatest knights in the land. But @Arthur Peres is right: Loras doesn't have the inexperience to successfully lead anyone's vanguard. I'm sorry...but it's true. That much was obvious during the siege of Dragonstone. He blundered himself and his men right where Cersei wanted him and Cersei is a nutcase.

That said, Arthur, Renly doesn't play favorites as much as you think he does. Because, if so, for what reason did he allow Brienne to join his Kingsguard if not for merit. There are no real political favors to be had by making the one and only heir of the Lord of Tarth a lifelong celibate. Brienne is not popular and Renly clearly is not as fond of her as she is of him.

Meritocracy was Renly's schtick - his passion even - as much as it was a socially disruptive farce.

 

[Arthur Peres]

On 8/2/2018 at 11:15 PM, Bernie Mac said:

They both said this? They both claimed that they could not keep the shield islands?  Euron is under the impression that he can conquer the entire realm, I think you are misguided if you think he can not hold on to four small islands (which is part of the kingdom he means to take). 

 

With Dragons...

He says himself. His open handed, he already got the glory he wanted... he will let the fools that took his poisoned prize lost it.

On 8/2/2018 at 11:15 PM, Bernie Mac said:

When? 

Did you missed the quote? go back and read it. I will not keep posting the same think again and again.

On 8/2/2018 at 11:15 PM, Bernie Mac said:

look even if you were correct on this matter, you're not, it would not matter. The perception at the capital was that the Reach was in danger. 

 

They were wrong.

 

On 8/2/2018 at 11:15 PM, Bernie Mac said:

lol you keep on moving the goalposts, you complain about one thing, are proven wrong and then come up with something else. 

You complained that Loras was a poor choice because he wanted glory, the Greatjon is someone who is after the glory and insulted at the thought of lesser lords being infront of him. 

Nobles entire education is centered on being ready to go to war, they don't need to be proven to take part. 

• Robert, no experience of war until he actually commanded and won one, including being able to lead the Van
• Ned had no experience in war until he won his first one. 
• Robb had zero experience in war and won his first three battles
• Daeron I had no experience in war until he conquered Dorne

Lol. You're the one to bring Greatjon to the conversation. Just like now you are bringing Daeron, and Robb.  I just pointed out that diferent then Loras Greatjon was not going into suicide charges that cost half his army and that he is more experienced and older.

Daeron is heavy critized, would not hold him as a example. He also got himself killed... this guy sounds like Loras.

 

 

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

 

@Bernie Mac Loras is one of the greatest knights in the land. But @Arthur Peres is right: Loras doesn't have the inexperience to successfully lead anyone's vanguard.

I'm guessing you meant experience, right? 

Like a few people you really seem to be overestimating the qualities that leading the Van actually require. For instance the 21 year Robert was an excellent choice despite never having fought in a war while the far more experienced 37 year old Robert would be an awful choice to lead the Van. 

He is not the overall commander, that would be Renly controlling the Right, he, like Estermont, Caron and Rowan is leading a company in the battle, but unlike the other commanders his tactical position is pretty much set in stone (in this battle at least, other battles will likely see different expectations). 

Leading the Van only really requires a great rider, warrior and someone willing to be brave enough to charge through the enemy lines. 

2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

 

I'm sorry...but it's true. That much was obvious during the siege of Dragonstone. He blundered himself and his men right where Cersei wanted him and Cersei is a nutcase.

Few issues with this

• Cersei gave Loras the command of the entire campaign to win back Dragonstone, it is an entirely different job to leading the Van. However you judge Loras on that has little bearing on him being able to lead the van.
• you are correct, Cersei is a nutcase, but she was also in charge so if she says the Redwyne fleet is not moving till Dragonstone is taken then that is what happens
• Loras' objective was to take Dragonstone as quickly as possible (rather than wait around for many months) so the Redwyne fleet could protect the Reach coast. He achieved his goal. 

27 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

With Dragons...

yup, he intends to keep the entire realm with dragons, he is also comfortable that they can hold onto the Shield Islands. 

Euron not once claimed that he could not keep the shield islands, you made that up, please don't do that, it wastes everybody's time. 

27 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

He says himself. His open handed, he already got the glory he wanted... he will let the fools that took his poisoned prize lost it.

he says they will lose the Shield Islands? 

"What the kraken grasps it does not loose. These isles were once ours, and now they are again . . . but we need strong men to hold them. So rise, Ser Harras Harlaw, Lord of Greyshield." 

 

27 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Did you missed the quote? go back and read it. I will not keep posting the same think again and again.

lol you didn't quote any actual evidence, it is sweet that you think this bluff is fooling anyone, 

27 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

They were wrong.

They may well be, that is hardly the point. If you were phoned up the police and told that your house was being robbed you'd react to it, even if it was not true. 

The Tyrells in Kings Landing are convinced their homeland is in danger, they want to help their homeland.

27 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Lol. You're the one to bring Greatjon to the conversation. Just like now you are bringing Daeron, and Robb.  I just pointed out that diferent then Loras Greatjon was not going into suicide charges that cost half his army and that he is more experienced and older.

The objective was too win the castle as soon as possible, allowing the Redwyne fleet to go home and defend their coast. The objective was completed.

Sitting on your ass and waiting half a year to starve them out is failing the objective. 

27 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Daeron is heavy critized,

lol, no he's not. He is held up as a heroic standard in their society, small children pretend to be him when they are playing. He is celebrated by the majority. 

How have you missed that? 

 

[Arthur Peres]

1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

no he's not. He is held up as a heroic standard in their society, small children pretend to be him when they are playing. He is celebrated by the majority. 

 How have you missed that?

Lol

"A conquest that lasted a summer. Your Boy King lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone Should have told him that war isn't a game"

7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Euron not once claimed that he could not keep the shield islands, you made that up, please don't do that, it wastes everybody's time.

“Your victories are hollow. You cannot hold the Shields.”

“Why should I want to hold them?” His brother’s smiling eye glittered in the lantern light, blue and bold and full of malice. “The Shields have served my purpose. I took them with one hand, and gave them away with the other. A great king is open-handed, brother. It is up to the new lords to hold them now. The glory of winning those rocks will be mine forever. When they are lost, the defeat will belong to the four fools who so eagerly accepted my gifts.”

 

[Bernie Mac]

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

Lol

"A conquest that lasted a summer. Your Boy King lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone Should have told him that war isn't a game"

 

How is that lol worthy? You claimed he was "heavy critized".   Although once again you have made it abundantly clear that you get all your information on this series from glancing at the wiki. explains so much. 

Most people think of his exploits as great

 

 "He went to war and conquered Dorne. The Young Dragon, they called him."

"He worshiped false gods," said Devan, "but he was a great king otherwise, and very brave in battle."

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 "King Daeron wrote with an elegant simplicity, and his history is rich with blood, battle, and bravery. Your son is quite engrossed."

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When Jon had been a boy at Winterfell, his hero had been the Young Dragon, the boy king who had conquered Dorne at the age of fourteen. Despite his bastard birth, or perhaps because of it, Jon Snow had dreamed of leading men to glory just as King Daeron had, of growing up to be a conqueror. 

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Few foresaw that Daeron, the First of His Name, would cover himself in glory as did his ancestor Aegon the Conqueror, whose crown he wore. (His father had preferred a simple circlet.) Yet that glory turned to ashes almost as swiftly. A youth of rare brilliance and forcefulness, Daeron at first met resistance from his uncle, his councillors, and many great lords when he first proposed to "complete the Conquest" by bringing Dorne into the realm at last. His lords reminded him that, unlike the Conqueror and his sisters, he had no more dragons fit for war. To this Daeron famously responded: "You have a dragon. He stands before you."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Daeren Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne," Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes.

 

 

on the whole, the majority praise his exploits. 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

“Your victories are hollow. You cannot hold the Shields.”

“Why should I want to hold them?” His brother’s smiling eye glittered in the lantern light, blue and bold and full of malice. “The Shields have served my purpose. I took them with one hand, and gave them away with the other. A great king is open-handed, brother. It is up to the new lords to hold them now. The glory of winning those rocks will be mine forever. When they are lost, the defeat will belong to the four fools who so eagerly accepted my gifts.”

 

all that proves is that Euron had no intention of keeping them and was not going to try, it does not mean that should he have wanted to he would be unable to. Clear difference. 

[Arthur Peres]

33 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

How is that lol worthy? You claimed he was "heavy critized".   Although once again you have made it abundantly clear that you get all your information on this series from glancing at the wiki. explains so much. 

 Most people think of his exploits as great

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Few foresaw that Daeron, the First of His Name, would cover himself in glory as did his ancestor Aegon the Conqueror, whose crown he wore. (His father had preferred a simple circlet.) Yet that glory turned to ashes almost as swiftly. A youth of rare brilliance and forcefulness, Daeron at first met resistance from his uncle, his councillors, and many great lords when he first proposed to "complete the Conquest" by bringing Dorne into the realm at last. His lords reminded him that, unlike the Conqueror and his sisters, he had no more dragons fit for war. To this Daeron famously responded: "You have a dragon. He stands before you."

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Lol.

If you think this is a good potrait there is no reason for we keep talking.

The guy is a young arrogant brat, going against his concil, enters in a war, waste 60k of his men in a conquest that he couldn't hold and gets himself killed...

[Minsc]

On 8/1/2018 at 6:38 AM, Angel Eyes said:

There’s a reason why Donal Noye compared him to copper.

Because he only knew Renly when he was six?