Condoning Renly Baratheon

[Arthur Peres]

28 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

One fifth of the northern army died under Robb's command, by your logic that makes him worse. 

Stannis had over 20k at the battle of Blackwater, he lost 17k of them and, unlike Loras, lost. That make him, by your logic worse. 

Roddy the Ruin, one of the most famed commanders in the history of Westeros lost more than two thirds of his men in his first battle and is celebrated. 

 Loras was victorious, he is treated as hero as a result by the people of Westeros. 

1/5 is way less then half. Also Robb fought much more battles then Loras.

Stannis was caught by surprise by wildfire and then taken in the rear. Loras knew everything abouth the siege of Dragonstone, there was no magic fire, and no enemy army arriving in the nickle of time. For a similar situation. Stannis wasn't dumb enough to storm Storm's End.

Loras is said to promoted a unecessary bloodbath. His plan was dumb and everybody knew... Cersei wanted him dead and let it go.

"Ser Loras... this plan of his is fraught with peril. To storm the very walls of Dragonstone...”

“I never saw a braver knight,” Waters said, “but he turned what could have been a bloodless victory into a slaughter. A thousand men are dead, or near enough to make no matter. Most of them our own. And not just common men, Your Grace, but knights and young lords, the best and the bravest.”

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

He's also a hot head, much like Gregor Clegane is a hot head, the man who often leads Tywin's vanguard. 

The man leading Tywin's vanguard was Kevan Lannister.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Lol are you really this deluded that you think Cersei is right in this situation? 

 She wants the Reach, the kingdom that secured her son the crown, to be attacked and destabilized. It is idiotic, the fact that you share her opinions is hilarious. 

what is the big picture? 

The IB can't hold the shield Island, their victory is hollow, and Loras is wasting lives over nothing. The reach is not at danger at that moment. I never quoted Cersei. But now I quote the man that lead the invasion.

Spoiler

“Your victories are hollow. You cannot hold the Shields.”

“Why should I want to hold them?” His brother’s smiling eye glittered in the lantern light, blue and bold and full of malice. “The Shields have served my purpose. I took them with one hand, and gave them away with the other. A great king is open-handed, brother. It is up to the new lords to hold them now. The glory of winning those rocks will be mine forever. When they are lost, the defeat will belong to the four fools who so eagerly accepted my gifts.”

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

 Being a hot head is not a liability when leading the Van. It has became abundantly apparent from our conversations here and elsewhere that  your knowledge on medieval warfare is limited.  

Maybe my knowloge is limited. But you're also not so great. If you think fighting while emotional is a good think, try listening to any professional fighter. Fight demands calm and cautions.

[Bernie Mac]

35 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

1/5 is way less then half. Also Robb fought much more battles then Loras.

lol my bad, I meant 1/5th survived, 4/5th's died. Robb's objective was to free his father and sisters, which he failed and lost 4/5th's of his army in the process. 

Loras' objective was to capture Dragonstone as quickly as possible and he completed it. 

35 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Stannis was caught by surprise by wildfire and then taken in the rear.

Sounds like poor planning to me. Perhaps if he choose a better person than Morrigen to lead his Van and a better person than Imry to lead his navy he would not have been caught with his trousers down. 

Stannis is more than aware about the army at Bitterbridge, there is simply no excuse. But then he was about to make the exact same mistake in the North when he wanted to attack the Dreadfort until the teenage Jon had to school him. 

35 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Loras knew everything abouth the siege of Dragonstone, there was no magic fire, and no enemy army arriving in the nickle of time. For a similar situation. Stannis wasn't dumb enough to storm Storm's End.

lol he was dumber. He could have taken Storm's End through single combat or even peaceful siege, instead he wastes a magical shadow assassin on it. He could have rid himself of Tywin or Joffrey, he instead uses it on an old man willing to fight. 

35 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Loras is said to promoted a unecessary bloodbath. His plan was dumb and everybody knew... Cersei wanted him dead and let it go.

Cersei is the one who gave him the command, he was following orders. 

35 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

The man leading Tywin's vanguard was Kevan Lannister.

No, in the battle of the Green Fork it was Gregor Clegane

The trumpets blared again, da-DAAA da-DAAA da-DA da-DA da-DAAAAAAA. Ser Gregor waved his huge sword and bellowed a command, and a thousand other voices screamed back at him. Tyrion put his spurs to his horse and added one more voice to the cacophony, and the van surged forward. 

Kevan leads the left

His uncle would lead the center. Ser Kevan had raised his standards above the kingsroad. 

At the battle of the Fords it is Gregor once again

here Ser Gregor Clegane had led the assault. So many of his men had fallen that their dead horses threatened to dam the flow. In the end the Mountain and a handful of his best had gained the west bank, but Edmure had thrown his reserve at them, and they had shattered and reeled away bloody and beaten. 

While at the battle of the Blackwater it is 'Renly's Ghost' who leads the Van, which should give you a little understanding of what leading the Van actually entails, is an attack, it does not involve an exceptional military mind but someone who is able to charge and attack. No one knew that it was Garlan, it was a secret, all he needed to do was charge, attack and inspire and simply wearing a dead man's armour did that (similar to Achilles and Patroclus) 

You not understanding this makes a lot of what you say void, as you are criticizing an appointment of a position you are not sure about. I can't bake, it would be idiotic of me to complain about the appointment of a souffle chef simply by guessing what the skills were

 

35 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

The IB can't hold the shield Island,

Of course they can. They ruled them in the past, along with the Arbor. 

 

[Arthur Peres]

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol my bad, I meant 1/5th survived, 4/5th's died. Robb's objective was to free his father and sisters, which he failed and lost 4/5th's of his army in the process. 

 Loras' objective was to capture Dragonstone as quickly as possible and he completed it. 

The RW was not a battle. Also Robb won most of his victories decisive. His men still praise him after he is long dead. Loras is bad mouthed by his allys. Loras butchered his own men. It's this kind of nutjob you want away from command.

 

8 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sounds like poor planning to me. Perhaps if he choose a better person than Morrigen to lead his Van and a better person than Imry to lead his navy he would not have been caught with his trousers down. 

 Stannis is more than aware about the army at Bitterbridge, there is simply no excuse. But then he was about to make the exact same mistake in the North when he wanted to attack the Dreadfort until the teenage Jon had to school him

The Vanguard could probably be lead by a better men, never denied that. Stannis lost blackwater because of Wildfire took everyone by surprise and reinforcements arrived at the nickle of time. No one could have saw that.

11 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 lol he was dumber. He could have taken Storm's End through single combat or even peaceful siege, instead he wastes a magical shadow assassin on it. He could have rid himself of Tywin or Joffrey, he instead uses it on an old man willing to fight. 

Funny. Because I remember you saying this in other topic.

"Name a single occasion when a castle has been taken by single combat? Something being possible does not mean it is likely. We have heard of a lot of castles being captured throughout both the series and the accompanying novellas and not once has a castle been taken by single combat. "

From "Would Balon attacking the Westerlands would really chang anything" Pag. 7...

But I'm glad you finally agree with me now. It was a bad move to not take the challenge.

25 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Kevan leads the left

 His uncle would lead the center. Ser Kevan had raised his standards above the kingsroad. 

Do you realise your mistake or should I point it out?

26 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, in the battle of the Green Fork it was Gregor Clegane

You're right on this one. I confused the Center with the van that was on the left... Still was a bad move.

Tywin intended to lose on the left flank for whatever reason... Gregor seem's to ignore his orders. Kind of prove my point why you should not put hotheaded idiots in key position.

“I put the least disciplined men on the left, yes. I anticipated that they would break. Robb Stark is a green boy, more like to be brave than wise. I’d hoped that if he saw our left collapse, he might plunge into the gap, eager for a rout. Once he was fully committed, Ser Kevan’s pikes would wheel and take him in the flank, driving him into the river while I brought up the reserve.”

[Arthur Peres]

34 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Of course they can. They ruled them in the past, along with the Arbor. 

 

based on what?

Euron and Aeron say cleary that they can't. But I can bring more to the table if you want.

“A long cold swim, for a crown you cannot keep. Your father had more courage than sense. The Old Way served the isles well when we were one small kingdom amongst many, but Aegon’s Conquest put an end to that. Balon refused to see what was plain before him. The Old Way died with Black Harren and his sons.”

“I know that.” Asha had loved her father, but she did not delude herself. Balon had been blind in some respects. A brave man but a bad lord

[Bernie Mac]

7 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

 

He wants to give him some glory because he's the "greatest knight".

Which is true which of the knights present were greater than him? 

7 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

 

And no, Loras is not a fine choice. He has no battle experience

Come on, Robert had no battle experience, Ned had no battle experience, Tarly likely had no battle experience when they all led their first battles. 

That is what the entire noble education is about, preparing young nobles to command in wars. 

Though can you explain to me what qualities a person needs to lead the Vanguard? 

7 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

and we've seen what he does when he's given the command, he slaughtered over half of his troops in the Siege of Dragonstone because he was so reckless and heedless.

No, it is bizarre that you have came to that conclusion. The Reach was being attacked and Cersei refused to allow the Redwyne Navy protect the coast until Dragonstone was taken, she gave the order (hoping it would kill him). 

Loras completed his objective and now the Redwyne fleet is free to return home. 

7 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

Making him LC of his Kingsguard wasn't a bad idea though, as you say (Though Barristan was to join too and so would have to serve under a 17 year old which is kind of ridic).

 Command is not about age. Borros is older than Loras and Swann, should he be the next in line for LC position? 

7 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

I'm just saying, Renly did not look over the qualifications of all of his men serving under his command,

how many single knights who were willing to never marry did he have? 

Better yet which of his kingsguard deserved the position over Loras? 

7 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

The narratives and themes constantly pushes that Renly is a child still, naive and doesn't realize what he's doing.

Except that is clearly wrong, take him not allowing Cat to leave, she was clueless why until he told her it was to send Robb a message about his strength. 

7 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

 

This isn't a knock on his character, it's just a part of his characterization and gives an explanation as to his motives. And Renly is already an able politician, why does he have to be some great military commander too?

Has anyone claimed he is? But what we saw from his war counsel he was more than willing to listen and take the advice from the likes of Rown and Tarly. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 8/1/2018 at 6:38 AM, Angel Eyes said:

There’s a reason why Donal Noye compared him to copper.

Donal knew a small child.

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

Here, Tyrion explains it:

Do you have the right quote? Tyrion is describing the Vanguard around him.  I'll ask again

1. Which of the knights present were greater than Loras? 
2.  Can you explain to me what qualities a person needs to lead the Vanguard?
3. Tywin often uses The Mountain to lead his Van, why is he a suitable choice and Loras not? 

 

3 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

Not saying Loras is a brute, but he's certainly unthinking and leads with his "rage" and desire for glory,

As does Clegane and the Greatjon and both are selected to lead the Van by Tywin and Robb.

What is your actual understanding of the role?  

 

3 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

 

as evidenced by the battle on Dragonstone.

Except in that case it was not, it was neither for rage or glory. The Reach was under attack and the navy was only going to be released to defend the reach coast once Dragonstone was captured, per the Queen regent's orders. 

3 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

It was a bad idea to choose him over Tarly, who's already won many battles.

One battle. 

but again, what do you think leading the can entails? I'm going to be honest, I don't think you or Peres actually understand the position, that you  imagine it comes with far more duties and responsibility than it actually does.

3 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

Robert and Ned is false equivalence, they didn't have a number of experienced veterans whom they could choose from to lead their battles.

I'm sorry, but you have just made that up. 

 

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I just don't think Barristan, who's a reputed knight and the best in the realm, would want to serve under a teenager. Renly was short-sighted in his hoping Barristan would just join him.

How is having hope being short sighted? 

3 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

You're all claiming Renly made 0 mistakes, which is clearly wrong. 

no one has made that claim. 

3 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

And...no. He threw out Tarly's offer to lead the van,

everybody wanted to lead the Van.  It is a position of honour more than it is actual real command. 

3 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

his suggestion to attack before dawn so the sun wouldn't be in their eyes,

and Renly points out that it would be dishonorable, that a time had been agreed

3 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

and Mathis Rowan saying that he should ignore Stannis and continue to King's Landing.

and Renly let his war counsel decide

Renly looked to the others. "What say you all?"

 "I say that Stannis is a danger to you," Lord Randyll Tarly declared. "Leave him unblooded and he will only grow stronger, while your own power is diminished by battle. The Lannisters will not be beaten in a day. By the time you are done with them, Lord Stannis may be as strong as you . . . or stronger."

Others chorused their agreement. The king looked pleased. "We shall fight, then."

Rowan was ignored because the majority thought he was wrong

 

3 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

Again, not trying to pull him down, defame him, or what not, but you have to acknowledge a character's flaws too.

I have no problem with that, there are many negatives about Renly.  The guy was willing to usurp his nephews crown, he was trying to destabilize the kingdom by enticing his brother away from his wife, the daughter of his most powerful vassal. 

I am perfectly willing to discuss the negative parts of his character but I'm also going to point out when people are simply parroting other people's ill informed arguments without understanding what they are talking about. 

 

 

[Arthur Peres]

16 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

As does Clegane and the Greatjon and both are selected to lead the Van by Tywin and Robb.

What is your actual understanding of the role?  

Clegane messed up Tywin's plan.

Greatjon is much more proven in battle than Loras. He already was leading part of the army during the campaing in the Westerlands and he seemed fine. Greatjon is also Robb second choice, he only picks greatjon after he can't count with Blackfish.

20 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Except in that case it was not, it was neither for rage or glory. The Reach was under attack and the navy was only going to be released to defend the reach coast once Dragonstone was captured, per the Queen regent's orders. 

The reach was not  in danger. You seems to ignore this point. 

22 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

One battle. 

but again, what do you think leading the can entails? I'm going to be honest, I don't think you or Peres actually understand the position, that you  imagine it comes with far more duties and responsibility than it actually does.

That we know of. Tarly has a pretty big reputation.

If you think we are ignorant please enlight us...

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

55 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Except in that case it was not, it was neither for rage or glory. The Reach was under attack and the navy was only going to be released to defend the reach coast once Dragonstone was captured, per the Queen regent's orders. 

One battle. 

Loras led an army of westermen and got most of them killed. If you buy into the theory that the Tyrells want to consolidate power, it makes it even better in that respect. Then there's the theory that Loras isn't even hurt. What we know of the battle comes from Aurane Waters, who stole the crown's ships and strikes me as a opportunist. 

 

32 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

The reach was not  in danger. You seems to ignore this point. 

The reach was and is in danger. The IB took 4 islands that belong to Highgarden. They are trying to sneak into Oldtown. They are raiding up the mander and they have sacked the arbor and its outlying islands. How you can say they are not in danger is mind boggling. Cersei's entire intent of ignoring the threat was to force Loras to do something rash.

32 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

If you think we are ignorant please enlight us...

Edward III commanded the van at Crecy. He was sixteen, newly knighted, and had never even fought a tourney as far as I can tell. If he is qualified to lead the vanguard (with more experienced men in tow), then so is Loras. He wasn't going to be alone in that position. Someone like Tarly or Rowan would have been there as a deputy. Henry V did the same with newly made knights during the Agincourt campaign. He picked John Holland to scout and secure the landing site for his army. Guy was 20, had never seen battle, and was newly knighted.

[Arthur Peres]

5 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The reach was and is in danger. The IB took 4 islands that belong to Highgarden. They are trying to sneak into Oldtown. They are raiding up the mander and they have sacked the arbor and its outlying islands. How you can say they are not in danger is mind boggling. Cersei's entire intent of ignoring the threat was to force Loras to do something rash.

I say this because Aeron and Euron said so. "The victory is empty" they can't hold it and they know it.

[Universal Sword Donor]

14 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

I say this because Aeron and Euron said so. "The victory is empty" they can't hold it and they know it.

That doesn't mean it's not in danger. It's not in danger of being occupied, sure. But widespread sacking and raiding definitely means they are in danger.

[Arthur Peres]

15 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That doesn't mean it's not in danger. It's not in danger of being occupied, sure. But widespread sacking and raiding definitely means they are in danger.

Look at the situation of the Riverlands then. Winter is coming and people are already starving.

Loras is not looking at the big picture, and he butchered half of his men in a unecessary bloodbath. He is a bad commander and unfit for the job.

[Bernie Mac]

3 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

I say this because Aeron and Euron said so. "The victory is empty" they can't hold it and they know it.

They both said this? They both claimed that they could not keep the shield islands?  Euron is under the impression that he can conquer the entire realm, I think you are misguided if you think he can not hold on to four small islands (which is part of the kingdom he means to take). 

 

57 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Clegane messed up Tywin's plan.

When? 

57 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Greatjon is much more proven in battle than Loras.

lol you keep on moving the goalposts, you complain about one thing, are proven wrong and then come up with something else. 

You complained that Loras was a poor choice because he wanted glory, the Greatjon is someone who is after the glory and insulted at the thought of lesser lords being infront of him. 

Nobles entire education is centered on being ready to go to war, they don't need to be proven to take part. 

• Robert, no experience of war until he actually commanded and won one, including being able to lead the Van
• Ned had no experience in war until he won his first one. 
• Robb had zero experience in war and won his first three battles
• Daeron I had no experience in war until he conquered Dorne

 

57 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

The reach was not  in danger. You seems to ignore this point. 

look even if you were correct on this matter, you're not, it would not matter. The perception at the capital was that the Reach was in danger. 

The news from the Reach seemed to grow more dire with every raven. The ironmen had not been content with their new rocks, it seemed. They were raiding up the Mander in strength, and had gone so far as to attack the Arbor and the smaller islands that surrounded it. The Redwynes had kept no more than a dozen warships in their home waters, and all those had been overwhelmed, taken, or sunk. And now there were reports that this madman who called himself Euron Crow's Eye was even sending longships up Whispering Sound toward Oldtown.

On 8/1/2018 at 6:08 PM, Arthur Peres said:

The RW was not a battle.

yeah it was, it was a pretty one sided battle, similar to Robb's attack on the sleeping green boys at the battle of Oxcross, but it was a battle nontheless

Then the flames went licking up from the fallen tent, and now the other two were collapsing, heavy oiled cloth settling down on the men beneath. A flight of fire arrows streaked through the air. The second tent took fire, and then the third. The screams grew so loud she could hear words through the music. Dark shapes moved in front of the flames, the steel of their armor shining orange from afar.

A battle, Arya knew. It's a battle. And the riders . . .

 

On 8/1/2018 at 6:08 PM, Arthur Peres said:

 

Also Robb won most of his victories decisive.

Of course he did, he picked battles where he held the advantage.  Although he lost around 33% of his cavalry on his battles so not that while Forley Prester and Daven Lannister still remained with parts of the armies he had fought so not actually that decisive. 

On 8/1/2018 at 6:08 PM, Arthur Peres said:

His men still praise him after he is long dead.

can you quote two of some of them doing so, examples of his men praising him? 

On 8/1/2018 at 6:08 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Loras is bad mouthed by his allys.

As a knight? as someone capable of leading the Van? By all means quote them. 

On 8/1/2018 at 6:08 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Loras butchered his own men. It's this kind of nutjob you want away from command.

lol the kind of nutjob who secures victory in a very short time, yeah, many rulers in the middle ages would actually like commanders like that.  wwi and wwii he'd be lauded. 

On 8/1/2018 at 6:08 PM, Arthur Peres said:

The Vanguard could probably be lead by a better men, never denied that.

Which better men? 

Explain what qualities you think are needed to lead the Van? 

The battle of blackwater all what was needed to lead the Van was the ability to fit in Renly's armour and expertly ride a horse in battle. That is pretty much it. 

 

 

On 8/1/2018 at 6:08 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Funny. Because I remember you saying this in other topic.

eh? Do you not understand what 'could have' means? It means it never happened but it could have. 

On 8/1/2018 at 6:08 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Do you realise your mistake or should I point it out?

what mistake? 

On 8/1/2018 at 6:08 PM, Arthur Peres said:

 

Tywin intended to lose on the left flank for whatever reason... Gregor seem's to ignore his orders. Kind of prove my point why you should not put hotheaded idiots in key position.

 

no, you are, once again, confused. The plan's failing had nothing to do with Clegane but Tywin expecting Robb to be braver and rush in, instead Roose was cautious and held back. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

19 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Look at the situation of the Riverlands then. Winter is coming and people are already starving.

Loras is not looking at the big picture, and he butchered half of his men in a unecessary bloodbath. He is a bad commander and unfit for the job.

They aren't "his" men. They are Lannister men. 

“As for the Lannister host, two thousand seasoned veterans remained encamped outside the city walls, awaiting the arrival of Paxter Redwyne’s fleet to carry them across Blackwater Bay to Dragonstone. ”

“I never saw a braver knight,” Waters said, “but he turned what could have been a bloodless victory into a slaughter. A thousand men are dead, or near enough to make no matter. Most of them our own. And not just common men, Your Grace, but knights and young lords, the best and the bravest.”

He weakens his rivals -- and oh boy are the Lannisters rivals -- and gets to protect his homeland in one fell swoop. Further that he isn't looking at the big picture just doesn't jive. The IB are taking gold, women, and food from the places they reave. It's in the crowns interest AND the Tyrell's interest to end that ASAP. The Reach will be feeding places like the Riverlands come winter.

[Peach King]

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Snip

 

 Can you tone down the condescension. 

[Peach King]

Agree with all of this, and there's also that Renly is fascinated by Robert and kind of tries to emulate him. Probably he views his usurpation as his own version of Robert's Rebellion. As he said  "Robert won the throne with his war hammer" so Renly is just following in his footsteps.

But I also find it hard to blame Stannis too much. I mean he was busy serving the realm and Robert. What should have been done is that Robert should have brought Renly to court from an early age, that way he could be groomed so he'd be more fit for his position as Master of Laws and also have strong ties to his own family. Giving Renly's Storm's End and letting Loras be fostered there was one of the biggest mistakes of the series in hindsight. (Though I wouldn't change a thing cause their relationship is so darn sweet) 

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

1. Tarly is not a better knight, but he's a better soldier and is more suited to lead the van

We don't actually know that. Usually leading the Van in a pitched battle is given to an elite warrior (of suitable birth), it is not really about military intelligence but ferocity in battle especially when the rest of the army are following

Tarly 20 years ago, like Robert,  was absolutely the best choice to lead the Van but we know now Robert would be an idiotic choice, he is nowhere near the warrior he once was. 

Notice how Tarly is not picked to lead the Van on the battle of the Blackwater? The role was given to a superior warrior who had never fought in a war before. 

Loras, Clegane, Garlan, the Greatjon, the Blackish, Daemon Blackfyre, Robert (in his youth) are all excellent warriors who lead the Van. Is Tarly, in the current time line, on their level? 

 

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2. I'm thinking someone who doesn't get their allies needlessly killed

You are in the wrong series and timeline for that, human life was cheap, all commanders, including Tarly, saw their men killed when there was little need. 

The eunuch smiled a silken smile. "I have such delicious tidings for you all, my lords. Yesterday at dawn our brave Lord Randyll caught Robett Glover outside Duskendale and trapped him against the sea. Losses were heavy on both sides, but in the end our loyal men prevailed. 

 

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3. It's still a risk to choose Loras when Tarly is right there, and Gregor and Greatjon already have been in some battles 

Why is it a risk? I keep on asking you what you actually think the position entails and you refuse to answer. 

"Beg all you like," said Ser Guyard the Green, "by rights it should be one of the seven who strikes the first blow."

Mostly, though not always, it is that simple, it is basically the person who attacks first. Tarly, riding with Renly, would actually have more influence of the command than he would have in the Van. Leading the van is more about prestige and honour. 

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If Loras was using the cost/benefit analysis of killing Lannister men to weaken them and freeing the Arbor fleet, I'll give him a pass. But it remains to be seen whether he was even thinking of that when he made the reckless charge against Dragonstone. He got himself injured too when he didn't need to, you can't dispute that. 

As did Robb when he was taking the ruinous Crag. Soldiers can get injured in medieval warfare, this is not something I should have to be explaining to anyone. Leading the Van is going to dramatically increase the chances of being injured. 

 

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Tarly has a great reputation. That means he must have won more battles than we know. 

No, it means he beat Robert twenty years ago. The rest of the war he spent picnicking outside of Storm's End There has been one war since then and apart from the Redwyne fleet, there is no evidence that any Reach soldiers were used, certainly no evidence that Tarly took part. 

In this era one great victory can give a man a reputation. 

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Then please name all the hardened battle commanders with Eddard and Robert? Oh wait you can't. 

lol come on, you can do better than this, right? 

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Because Barristan isn't just going to join him because he wants him to. Or are you arguing Renly isn't short sighted? He's literally a blue sky dreamer. 

He hoped he would join him, he was not counting on it.  He joined Robert, Barristan joining the likely victor of the war is not that hard to hope for, he has past form for it. 

 

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Yes, the majority thought he was wrong. You said, Renly listened to his advisors and took their advice, which isn't the case. 

the quote is right there, the majority disagreed with the idea of not attacking Stannis

Renly looked to the others. "What say you all?"

 "I say that Stannis is a danger to you," Lord Randyll Tarly declared. "Leave him unblooded and he will only grow stronger, while your own power is diminished by battle. The Lannisters will not be beaten in a day. By the time you are done with them, Lord Stannis may be as strong as you . . . or stronger."

Others chorused their agreement. The king looked pleased. "We shall fight, then."

 

Renly listened to the majority. 

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OK... Renly was right in playing at tourney while at war,

Are you being  this obtuse on purpose? 

As has been clarified multiple times in this thread his full strength was not yet gathered, he was still awaiting on Mace, Garlan and the 10k they were bringing from Highgarden. 

You keep on whining about the needless loss of soldiers lives but attacking without an armies full strength does just that. 

He was also allowing Tywin and Robb to further weaken each other, which in turn would make them easier to defeat which once again leads to fewer of his own losses. 

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he was right in engaging Stannis immediately and not sending an army to deal with him,

Renly had 20k men with him, that is an army. 

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he was right in charging with the sun in their eyes,

lol what was he supposed to do, negotiate with the sun? invent sunglasses and mass produce 20 thousand of them for his entire army? 

some of your complaints are hilarious, they are worthy of derision. 

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he was right in choosing Loras for the vanguard,

yeah, he was. 

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he was right in blowing off his veterans,

he never actually did that. 

"Lord Mathis, you shall lead the center of my main battle. Bryce, you'll have the left. The right is mine. Lord Estermont, you shall command the reserve."

 

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he was right in leaving his supplies behind.... Seems like Renly can do no wrong. 

he is in his homeland, a paltry 5k army stands inbetween his capital with all the supplies he needs. 

20K vs 5k is going to be a short battle. You are going to great lengths to find complaint that anyone with an ounce of common sense could explain. 

 

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Stannis arrived at the battleground first. If he laid any traps Loras would no doubt lead his men into them which Tarly wouldn't. 

How do you work this out? The Van is charging by horseback, Tarly is not inspecting the grounds before kick off, this is not a football match.

[Hugorfonics]

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

he is in his homeland, a paltry 5k army stands inbetween his capital with all the supplies he needs. 

20K vs 5k is going to be a short battle. You are going to great lengths to find complaint that anyone with an ounce of common sense could explain. 

Its one thing to defend Loras, who admits to being the inferior warrior to Garlen. But defending the way Renly positions his army is ludicrous. 

How like his brother Robert he was, even in that . . . only Robert had always had Eddard Stark to temper his boldness with caution. Ned would surely have prevailed upon Robert to bring up his whole force, to encircle Stannis and besiege the besiegers. That choice Renly had denied himself in his headlong rush to come to grips with his brother. He had outdistanced his supply lines, left food and forage days behind with all his wagons and mules and oxen. He must come to battle soon, or starve.

20k vs Stannis' 5k is no guarantee. Numbers dont mean everything, Stannis had more men then Tyrion when he lost at Blackwater and less men then Mance at his victory at The Wall

[The Sunland Lord]

22 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

20k vs Stannis' 5k is no guarantee. Numbers dont mean everything, Stannis had more men then Tyrion when he lost at Blackwater and less men then Mance at his victory at The Wall

While I agree that no one knows what would have happened if it came to battle, the Wildlings are notoriously undisciplined fighters plus were caught completely unawares by Stannis.

 

[Bernie Mac]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its one thing to defend Loras, who admits to being the inferior warrior to Garlen. But defending the way Renly positions his army is ludicrous. 

How like his brother Robert he was, even in that . . . only Robert had always had Eddard Stark to temper his boldness with caution.

Ned is absent for much of the war, gathering his own levies in the North. 

At the Eyrie, when Jon and Robert head to Gulltown and Ned heads home, there is a lot of months before they meet up again at the Stoney Sept, we only know of one battle they actually both fought together in. The fandom seems to overestimate Ned's control over Robert in this war with little from the source material to back it up. 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ned would surely have prevailed upon Robert to bring up his whole force, to encircle Stannis and besiege the besiegers.

Ned was perfectly fine with the 35k rebels taking on the 40k royals at the battle of the Trident. 

Stannis was attacking Storm's End, was Renly supposed to sit and watch while this took place? It took Renly around a month to get from Bitterbridge to Storm's End with his cavalry, we are talking another two months for him to wait for his infantry and bringing them even further away from kings landing. 

None of is commanders, not the experienced Rowan or Tarly, thought that was needed and I'd be incredulous if Ned would have. Renly would be a laughing stock, his brother challenged him to battle with a fraction of his strength and Renly refused would be a huge blow. 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

That choice Renly had denied himself in his headlong rush to come to grips with his brother.

He genuinely thought his brother with no real support, could be negotiated with. Stannis only goes to war because a foreign mystique tells him he is the chosen one, Renly could not know his otherwise sensible brother would listen to such claptrap. 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

20k vs Stannis' 5k is no guarantee. Numbers dont mean everything, Stannis had more men then Tyrion when he lost at Blackwater

Well first of all Tyrion was inside, Stannis out. A siege is not a pitched battle, the walls of any settlement act as a multiplier against an enemy. 

Secondly Stannis was winning against Tyrion, he lost when Tywin and the Tyrells joined the battle