Condoning Renly Baratheon

[Minsc]

Seeing how Loras's fits the same standard as the overwhelming majority of the vanguard commanders that we see. GreatJon and Gregor being older doesn't make them any less brash and reckless. While, other choices are just as green as Loras.

Garlan being slightly order doesn't make any less green. What battle has Garlan fought before Blackwater?  Him training with three men isn't any more experience than Loras's tourney. 

Moreover, seeing how he was able to keep perfect formation at Blackwater while with Garlan there isn't reason to believe he will just ride ahead of his forces at Storm's End. Furthermore, he was able to effectively achieve his objectives at Dragonstone. While he faced heavy casualties his objective had nothing to do with protecting the lives of the most Lannister men under his command. Rather it was always to end the siege as quick as possible and he was willing to risk both his and their lives to protect his people. Furthermore, that is evidence that Loras fits your criteria of being able to stay claim in face of casualties as he never balks at Dragonstone. 

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, S. D said:

I read up a bit on vanguards and their purposes before answering. And military blogs too. 

Thank you. 

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Is the point of a vanguard not to lead the front part of the army? It's the tip of the spear, to secure the ground for the army.

Most certainly, but there are different variations, for instance some will have greater independence and more command than warrior tasks depending on knowledge of where the enemy is, how far away the enemy is and how close the centre/right/left and reserve are. 

In Loras' case there were no real complications, it was a pitched battle with the enemy in plain sight and his general just behind him. His only task is literally to lead the charge into the enemy and break the shield wall. It is an incredibly simple task

 

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You ask what qualities someone has to lead a vanguard. Ok:
-Someone who can keep steady in the face of the many casualties
-Someone canny enough to avoid a trap

Yeah, whether you think Loras is canny or not the second does not apply here. Stannis is right infront of the walls of Storm's End with eyes having watched his entire movement. He is not in a forest, the land is as well known to Renly and his Stormlords as it Stannis who has lived away from Storm's End these last 15 years. 

Stannis will have defenses, but Renly will be expected to charge and break through nonetheless. As battles go it is pretty straightforward. 

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You don't want someone reckless and rash. Attacking and inspiring does not mean being rash.

I disagree that Renly is any reckless nor is he any more rash than the average young knight, infact when talking about the kingsguard Hunt singles out a member who is rash and it is not Loras

"Aye, and it was the Knight of Flowers who carved up the Rainbow Guard. On a good day you might have been able to defeat Ser Emmon. He was a rash fighter, and he tired easily. Royce, though? No. Ser Robar was twice the swordsman that you are

I'd also point that the Mountain is rash, as was Robert in his first war, both successfully led their respective vanguards. 

Loras at 16 is a champion tourney knight, that requires an incredible amount of discipline. Talent only can carry you so far, the rest is constant training and dedication. Jaime is in awe of his prowess as a lancer 

Then the Knight of Flowers mounted up and put the others all to shame.

Jousting was three-quarters horsemanship, Jaime had always believed. Ser Loras rode superbly, and handled a lance as if he'd been born holding one . . . which no doubt accounted for his mother's pinched expression. He puts the point just where he means to put it, and seems to have the balance of a cat. Perhaps it was not such a fluke that he unhorsed me. 

 

I'd also point out that when the Mountain loses his shit when he is beaten by Loras and attacks him Loras remains relatively calm, when he comes face to face with Brienne, the person he feels responsible for Renly's death, he stands down when commanded to and when Cersei is deliberately provoking the Tyrell siblings with her refusal to send the Redwyne fleet it is Loras who finds the solution that works for both the Queen and the Reach.

 

We will release Lord Redwyne and his fleet when the castle falls." The queen pushed herself to her feet. "This audience is at an end. Grand Maester Pycelle, a word."

The old man started, as if her voice had woken him from some dream of youth, but before he could answer, Loras Tyrell strode forward, so swiftly that the queen drew back in alarm. She was about to shout for Ser Osmund to defend her when the Knight of Flowers sank to one knee. "Your Grace, let me take Dragonstone."

His sister's hand went to her mouth. "Loras, no."

Ser Loras ignored her plea. "It will take half a year or more to starve Dragonstone into submission, as Lord Paxter means to do. Give me the command, Your Grace. The castle will be yours within a fortnight if I have to tear it down with my bare hands."

 

 

Now notice Cersei's reaction, she is aware that she is being unreasonable and is expecting Loras to lash out, instead he finds a compromise

 

 

Loras being this rash individual seems to be somewhat exaggerated in this thread, though as I pointed out earlier being rash never harmed young Robert or Clegane when leading their Vanguards.

 

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Loras would be prone to breaking the formation and charging ahead,

yeah, I'm not really getting where you are getting that from. He certainly did not do that in the battle of blackwater when he was in the Van, Jaime comments on how well he performed riding alongside 'Renly's Ghost'. 

"It's said you fought magnificently in the battle . . . almost as well as Lord Renly's ghost beside you. A Sworn Brother has no secrets from his Lord Commander. Tell me, ser. Who was wearing Renly's armor?"

For a moment Loras Tyrell looked as though he might refuse, but in the end he remembered his vows. "My brother," he said sullenly. "Renly was taller than me, and broader in the chest. His armor was too loose on me, but it suited Garlan well."

 

It should also be pointed out the role to lead the Vanguard came down to who fit Renly's armour. Tywin could have had Tarly, Clegane or someother 'experienced' lord but he was more than happy with the Tyrell sons.

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since he desires personal glory and his job is to kill Stannis for Renly. In a normal battle, do you think Loras will remain level headed?

Did he not remain level headed in the battle of blackwater? 

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He wanted to track down Gregor,

of course he did and when the Hand of the king told him no he backed down. A rash individual would have gone despite Ned's orders. 

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he killed Emmon and Cuy in a rage,

Yes. But come on, context is everything here, he had just found out that Renly was murdered and he hugely overreacted to it, but this is not his regular behaviour. 

 

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its obvious he doesn't think very clearly before making rash decisions.

it actually is not. 

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Whos talking about wars? Garlan is 21 and has experience outside tourneys. 

such as?

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Someone else must have said it. Anyway the only point is Tarly is a good soldier which I don't think we will argue about. And if that's so then why does Mace keep choosing him to lead? 

 

Mate not once has anyone claimed Tarly is a poor soldier, but it has been almost 20 years since he led the Van, it is a role best suited for elite warriors. It is more than possible that he is no longer the rider/warrior that he once was. 

Notice how he is not commanding the Vanguard in any of the battles of the war of the five kings, he is likely better suited to commanding further back. 

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Oh sorry, misremembering a lot of things. He served his rightful king to the very end which proves my point even more. 

How does it prove your point,  you were just arguing the opposite, the text proved you wrong and have decided you are still right. Come on. 

Joffrey was still alive when Barrista swore an oath to Dany while 'his king' still lived. Once Joffrey dismissed him he was up for grabs, clearly Renly knew that and hoped he would win him. 

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he Blackfish took service with Jon Arryn. He was probably fighting in the Vale.

who would he be fighting in the Vale when the most important battle was in the Riverlands. 

The battle of Gulltown happened in the first weeks in the war, not the last. After a promising start you have resorted to making up shit rather than accept you were wrong.  A far bigger transgression than not being able to format your replies properly. 

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 seeing as how the people who had served in the earlier wars were not available to Ned and Robert since they decided to stay at home.

What absolute bullshit.  The war lasted more than year by which time the rebels are down to 35k and you have convinced yourself that none of them had prior experience in war? 

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I said Renly only listened to his advisors when it suited his own vision which is the case.

No originally you said he didn't listen to anyone and tried to claim he disregarded advice because he wanted to fight Stannis when in fact everyone of his men, bar one, told him to fight Stannis and he went with their choice. 

You made an argument, the text proved it wrong and are now just moving the goalposts. 

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Who said he lost for that reason? 

The books do. They are quite clear that Renly lost after he was assassinated by a magical shadow baby. 

 

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Penrose can't really attack with his tiny force unless he wants Stannis to storm his gates. 

Of course he can, are you unaware of the existence of bow and arrows. Have you never heard of sorties?  When the Reach army was besieging Storm's End  we know there was the occasional sortie, Stannis 5k are going to be even easier to raid against for the sitting garrison. 

 

 

 

 

[Minsc]

2 minutes ago, S. D said:

Apart from Guyard, who? Guyard was selected as a bodyguard and then passed over. He also doesn't have a history of impulsive decision making. Robb shows keen tactical thinking unlike Loras. 

And Gregor and Greatjon aren't known for suicide charges and getting themselves hurt where there's no need to, like Arthur Peres says. The vanguard is the most chaotic part of the battle. Loras gets knocked out  he causes the whole van to rout. And Loras immediately attacked the keep after breaching the walls, once the navy was freed up and no longer needed. 

Both Guyard and Garlan are equally as inexperienced as Loras when given their command. 

Both Gregor and GreatJon are both equally as rash and hot headed as Loras if not more so. Greatjon is so hot headed that he almost drew steel against his liege when he didn't like his placement in his lord's army. While Gregor is hot headed he tried to kill a high lord's son in front of crowd that not only included the King, Royal Family, Hand of the King, and Small Council. 

Good thing Loras is unlikely to get knocked out seeing he is highly skilled. Hell, he takes injuries at Dragonstone like a complete champ. His job was to take the castle and he did his job to completion. 

Besides Tarly and Robert none of the vanguard commanders we hear of are known for their command skill. Rather they are notable for their skill with the blade. Moreover, both Tarly and Robert wouldn't have had much experience when they led their vanguards. 

[Ran]

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Lolwut. Jesus did you type that with a straight face?

 

Lets stay polite.

That said, you're right. The people who lead vans in Westeros are generally the kind of men others will follow into the teeth of hell. They don't have to be great tacticians or careful warriors. What they have to be is bold, fearless, and personally capable in arms.

Loras checks off all those things, easily. He was a perfectly appropriate choice for the battle that was expected.