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GRRM: Speculation that Aegon "the Conqueror" knew about the Others


Daendrew

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Seems pretty telling that Martin quotes this speculation in this context, and in the rather sober manner that he did in this clip.

I would say it makes that “speculation” a hundred times more valid than if it just floated around on a forum like this one, for example.

I will take it one step further and link it to my previous speculation that Torhenn Stark was given similar insight in some manner (whether by the old gods, a greendream or some other convincing source), which led to his decision to bend the knee to Aegon.

I guess we shall eventually discover the truth of the matter, if we are patient enough.

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4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Seems pretty telling that Martin quotes this speculation in this context, and in the rather sober manner that he did in this clip.

I would say it makes that “speculation” a hundred times more valid than if it just floated around on a forum like this one, for example.

As I said elsewhere, the crucial thing is that George was under no obligation to not give us a proper explanation for Aegon's Conquest. He could have been hungry for fame and glory - like the Young Dragon - he could have felt wronged, humiliated, or even be threatened or attacked (at least by Harren and/or Argilac) and from there could have started a series of wars that sort of accidentally ended in him conquering the entire continent (like the Arlan III sort of accidentally conquered the Riverlands).

He could also have been a cruel or at least bloodthirsty man hungry for war.

Instead, he had the very weird notion of conquering an entire continent which is insanely huge compared to his island of Dragonstone, and there is no proper reason given. But that kind of enterprise usually has an explanation.

George is not obliged to ever give us one, but in light of the Others thing and the prophecy, etc. it is not unlikely that there is some connection there.

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I will take it one step further and link it to my previous speculation that Torhenn Stark was given similar insight in some manner (whether by the old gods, a greendream or some other convincing source), which led to his decision to bend the knee to Aegon.

Considering Torrhen actually marched a large army down south I doubt he had any such insight. It is more likely that certain things were mentioned by Aegon and his people during the negotiations. At least that's something I could see happening. If Torrhen still believed in the Others he certainly would have seen wisdom in having three powerful dragons on the side of the living. Not to mention the aid of all the Seven Kingdoms should the Wall actually ever be attacked. NW or not, the likes of Argilac and Harren and even Mern and Loren wouldn't lift so much as a finger to help the Northmen fight some fairy-tale monsters who supposedly breached the Wall.

But Aegon and his sisters would.

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I guess we shall eventually discover the truth of the matter, if we are patient enough.

Oh, I don't know. There should be information about the past, but it is completely irrelevant why Aegon the Conqueror conquered Westeros when we are given the actual back story of the Others and the Long Night.

We should learn more about the prophecy and all, but there the important points are the prophecy, what it means, and perhaps who made it back when - not so much who in the long history in-between knew about it and was motivated by it.

I think there could be some more hints there about Aegon, etc. but I don't think his motivations are going to be in the spotlight of future books in the main series.

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40 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

If Aegon I ever did make any comments about danger or magics beyond the Wall would any maester even record it? They seem dead set on countering anything supernatural with some scientific reasoning or dismiss it all together when it's possible. 

Some might. But chances are that Aegon would have discussed such matters behind closed doors, with his sister-wives, his brother/buddy Orys, and perhaps some other people close to him. How close Aegon was to any maesters in unclear as is how anti-magic the Citadel was back then. Keep in mind that with dragons around many spells and magics should have worked much better.

And it has been pretty much confirmed that Aegon and Visenya visited the Citadel of Oldtown in their youth, indicating that they may have done interesting research on their own.

Overall I'd think that the prophecy may have played a part in this, but not necessarily a belief in the Others. It would be very hard to swallow the idea that the Targaryens did believe in the Others behind the scenes. There may have been some of them who believed or considered certain things, and Aegon may have correctly deduced that Westeros is the place where the promised prince should be to fulfill his destiny, etc., but if anyone with power *really* believed in the Others, the Wall and the NW would have been a much higher priority than they were.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Some might. But chances are that Aegon would have discussed such matters behind closed doors, with his sister-wives, his brother/buddy Orys, and perhaps some other people close to him. How close Aegon was to any maesters in unclear as is how anti-magic the Citadel was back then. Keep in mind that with dragons around many spells and magics should have worked much better.

And it has been pretty much confirmed that Aegon and Visenya visited the Citadel of Oldtown in their youth, indicating that they may have done interesting research on their own.

Overall I'd think that the prophecy may have played a part in this, but not necessarily a belief in the Others. It would be very hard to swallow the idea that the Targaryens did believe in the Others behind the scenes. There may have been some of them who believed or considered certain things, and Aegon may have correctly deduced that Westeros is the place where the promised prince should be to fulfill his destiny, etc., but if anyone with power *really* believed in the Others, the Wall and the NW would have been a much higher priority than they were.

I agree, but one thing to consider it's unknown what he taught Aenys and Maegor. The only safe place for info to be stored in his time would be Dragonstone as The Red Keep didn't exist fully. 

Plus Jaehaerys had Barth searching for all sorts of knowledge on Dragons. Some info must have been lost between Aegon I and Jaehaeys I. I tend to suspect the wars between Aenys and Maegor with the Faith to be the culprit for this lost information. 

Any thing worked out with the Watch by Aegon would have been gone with him. Most of the Warriors son's went to the Wall anyways

Edit- Though Harren the Blacks brother was L.C. at the Wall so idk how willing to listen to Aegon he would have been

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If we go with 0 as "Aegon knew nothing of any prophecy and went for Westeros purely because he was a megalomaniac" to 10 "He absolutely believed that the Others would be coming and he had to save the world by unifying Westeros, likely because he thought he was the prince that was promised", I'd say I'd fall somewhere in the 3-4 range of "Aegon thought he and his sisters were the three heads of the dragon, which were probably part of Daena the Dreamer's prophecies, but they read this to mean they were destined for greatness and not that they were preparing for the apocalypse".

I discount the "10" case completely for various reasons that I can't get into until after everyone has a chance to read the book.

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22 minutes ago, Ran said:

If we go with 0 as "Aegon knew nothing of any prophecy and went for Westeros purely because he was a megalomaniac" to 10 "He absolutely believed that the Others would be coming and he had to save the world by unifying Westeros, likely because he thought he was the prince that was promised", I'd say I'd fall somewhere in the 3-4 range of "Aegon thought he and his sisters were the three heads of the dragon, which were probably part of Daena the Dreamer's prophecies, but they read this to mean they were destined for greatness and not that they were preparing for the apocalypse".

I discount the "10" case completely for various reasons that I can't get into until after everyone has a chance to read the book.

Not that i disagree but still interesting assuming Aegon visited the Wall and the Night's Watch. I assume even out of tradition they know the reason for their founding. Unless they really just told Aegon that their sole purpose is to defend against Wildlings. To which Aegon not being suspicious about a giant ice wall equally suspicious. Should Balerion respond to the wall any way like Alysanne's dragon, then its extra odd to not suspect anything. To own a dragon and doubt the possibility of Others would be equally odd. Imo at least. 

Definitely can't wait to read it

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One can also keep in mind that the infighting and other tragedies in House Targaryen certainly may have contributed to a loss in tradition or knowledge about certain esoteric topics. For instance, Aegon may have talked to Aenys about crucial things, and Visenya to Maegor, but neither Aenys nor Maegor are likely to have passed down such information to Jaehaerys and Alysanne.

The Dance marks another such break, considering that Aegon III and Viserys II were not exactly groomed to rule and preserve family knowledge by their parents. In fact, Rhaenyra's ramblings that Joffrey 'didn't know' that/why he shouldn't try to mount Syrax implies Rhaenyra didn't share certain knowledge with him that she should have shared.

The point in time where prophecies - and the promised prince prophecy especially - may have returned into the mind of the Targaryens to a higher degree would have been the late days of Daeron II, I'd think, when Aerys I (re-)discovered the prophecy that the dragons would return.

That one seems to have clearly influenced not only Aegon V but also seems to have triggered Jaehaerys II belief in the promised prince prophecy and his marriage policies.

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I don't think Alyssa would have been kept in the dark about some grand prophetic purpose if Aenys was informed of it. She had a close and happy relationship with her husband, spent a great deal of time with him, etc. So that's part of where this notion falls flat.

For various reasons, I don't believe there's any reason to think Aegon believed he had any greater purpose than forging a realm and passing it on to his heirs. 

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21 minutes ago, Ran said:

I don't think Alyssa would have been kept in the dark about some grand prophetic purpose if Aenys was informed of it. She had a close and happy relationship with her husband, spent a great deal of time with him, etc. So that's part of where this notion falls flat.

Yeah, I know that would be somewhat of a problem, but the idea is more like that certain things your (great)-grandparents though were important weren't exactly handed down exactly in this way to you. I don't think Aegon and his sisters were obsessed with prophecy (like Rhaegar and a significant number of Targaryens before him), but I consider it not unlikely that they knew certain things and even talked about them with their children, who then didn't care all that much about all that.

And with Alyssa it would really depend how close she was with her children later in life. During Jaehaerys/Alysanne's childhood they were either too young or their mother had much more important things to do.

One doesn't talk with preteens about magic and prophecy and the like.

But overall I find the more likely point for a, well, cut in tradition and dragonlore and the like coming with the Dance. Aegon III didn't care about dragons, so he wouldn't have talked about anything related to them all that much, and his children would have learned such things from him. And Viserys was even younger than Aegon when their parents died, not to mention that he spent a good part of his formative years in Lys.

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1 minute ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I think Aegon III's stance on dragons was more complicated than he didn't care. He may have feared or even hated them, but that didn't stop him from trying to hatch dragons.

Because Viserys apparently convinced him. But it seems not unlikely to me that Aegon III didn't care all that much to talk with Viserys and his sons about dusty old prophecies some of his ancestors believed in - or things along those lines he heard from his parents if that was the case. Things connected to dragons wouldn't have been something this king would care about much. Not to mention that he didn't talk all that much, anyway.

And keep in mind that Rhaenyra apparently did not tell Joff about the dragonrider thing. That is one little tidbit we have that children were not necessarily told everything at an early age.

But overall one imagines that knowledge which the Conqueror and his sons may have yet had orally, may have disappeared by the time of Aegon V or may have become obscure scroll/book knowledge. Still somewhat available for those who cared to look in the archives and libraries in the Red Keep and on Dragonstone, but very few people - especially princes and kings - would actually do that.

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9 hours ago, Ran said:

If we go with 0 as "Aegon knew nothing of any prophecy and went for Westeros purely because he was a megalomaniac" to 10 "He absolutely believed that the Others would be coming and he had to save the world by unifying Westeros, likely because he thought he was the prince that was promised", I'd say I'd fall somewhere in the 3-4 range of "Aegon thought he and his sisters were the three heads of the dragon, which were probably part of Daena the Dreamer's prophecies, but they read this to mean they were destined for greatness and not that they were preparing for the apocalypse".

I don't see why we would assume that the Three Heads of the Dragon, Prince that was Promised Prophesy had anything to do with it.  If his actions were prophesy driven, it seems far more likely that the ancient Valyrian "the Doom of Man would come out of the land beyond the narrow sea" prophesy would have played a role in this circumstance...especially since this upcoming Long Night and Others invasion is not the first.  It doesn't seem much of a stretch that a guy as smart as Aegon would have looked at Westeros and seen that a united realm stood a far greater chance at surviving and winning in the event that the "Doom of Man"/Others came again.  Prior to his conquest, two or three of the Seven Kingdoms were at war with one another at any given moment.  Getting them to fight side by side if the Others returned would have been very difficult had that continued, but in a united realm, where the Seven Kingdoms lived in a state of relative peace with one another (especially by comparison), it wouldn't be nearly as difficult to get the Great Lords and their bannermen behind the idea of fighting for the realm they're now all a part of when a serious threat like the Others returning arose.

 

52 minutes ago, Ran said:

I don't think Alyssa would have been kept in the dark about some grand prophetic purpose if Aenys was informed of it. She had a close and happy relationship with her husband, spent a great deal of time with him, etc. So that's part of where this notion falls flat.

And why should we assume Alyssa didn't know?  Because she was never explicitly quoted as saying anything about it?  It seems like the two children she spent the most time with (Jaehaerys and Alysanne) seem to have had similar ideas about the importance of binding the realm together and preserving what Aegon I and his sisters had accomplished.  Granted, it might not have been her that taught them.  George did say that Aenys was more of a benefactor than an heir, so maybe she had no idea because Aenys was always more interested in using the position his father's accomplishments granted him for his own purposes, and he never talked about why his father did what he did.  Maybe it was Robar Baratheon who taught Jaehaerys and Alysanne.  It seems likely that Aegon I's only true friend knew his reasons for doing what he did, and could easily have passed that knowledge down to his heir, who did the same with his heir.  You can clearly see in the Jaehaerys Excerpt that the point of their Royal Progresses was largely to arrange realm binding marriages that would strengthen the bonds between the previously separate and warring Kingdoms, as a means of truly forging the Seven Kingdoms into one united Kingdom.  It's the very first thing Alysanne did when she got to White Harbor and the first thing she did again when she arrived at Winterfell.    We don't know much about Aegon's Royal Progresses, except that he made a point of honoring local law and tradition when he held court, but I'd imagine that he was also arranging realm binding marriages as part of his travels about the realm, as we know for a fact that his sisters did exactly that when they visited places.  We also know that Jaehaerys and Alysanne thought the job of the Night's Watch was so important that they wanted to double their resources by granting them the New Gift, and Alysanne donated her jewels to pay for the construction of a new castle.  None of this is concrete, but when put together, it begins painting a picture that there was more to Aegon's conquest than greed, especially when you consider that Aegon pretty much took nothing for himself.  He didn't even build himself a castle worthy of a king.  He had a little wooden fort that he stayed at when he visited the capital and only commissioned the Red Keep in his old age, thinking that his heirs should have a proper castle.  He also wore a Valyrian Steel crown (not a fancy gold one) and built a terribly uncomfortable throne because he believed a king should never sit easy on his throne, which essentially tells you that he didn't view being the king as a position of ostentatious glamour...he seems to have viewed it as a duty, and thought that a king should live and rule for his people.  This is further underscored by the fact that his chosen title, the one his sisters first crowned him with, was Aegon, First of His Name, King of All Westeros, and SHIELD OF HIS PEOPLE, and that wasn't just hollow talk.  He proved his intentions when he built strong walls to protect the people that lived in his newly forming capital city from slaver raids in 19 AC, in spite of the fact that the only thing he could call his own in that city was that little wooden fort and his terribly uncomfortably throne.  None of that paints a picture of a man who was driven by greed and glory.  In fact, it seems to describe a man who was the exact opposite of a man driven by greed and glory...an enigma, as Yandel described him...a man that seems to have been driven by a sense of responsibility that came with having the power and ability to not only change the world for the better, but ensure that when the time came, the people of Westeros would have a chance at surviving.

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You are welcome to read F&B and see if there's any evidence of Aegon, his sisters, and his heirs conveying a belief that they were preparing the world to fight some unspecified doom. If the bar for that is merely "they wanted to rule well and propagate their dynasty",  well, I guess... but Occam's Razor suggests substantially more prosaic reasons.

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12 minutes ago, Ran said:

You are welcome to read F&B and see if there's any evidence of Aegon, his sisters, and his heirs conveying a belief that they were preparing the world to fight some unspecified doom. If the bar for that is merely "they wanted to rule well and propagate their dynasty",  well, I guess... but Occam's Razor suggests substantially more prosaic reasons.

I get it...you got an advanced copy of F&B that I don't yet have access to...you don't need to remind everyone of that fact every time you make a post...most, if not all of us already assumed that'd be the case anyways and beating that point to death seems a little petty...I never said the "speculation" that George referred to would be confirmed in Fire and Blood, which brings me back to the point I made in my original post...are you under the impression that George is the type of guy that would knowingly, and purposely spread false information to his fans as a marketing ploy to sell more books?

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In the books proper, characters tend to have more complex motives than what the forum tends to attribute to them. Multiple motives are often treated as mutually exclusive when they're not. Same is true in real life. We rationalize more than any of us like to admit.

Characters are given ways to rationalize what they really want to do but otherwise wouldn’t if the rationalization wasn’t there. A character finding ways to do what they want, why they want, and how they want is much more interesting than characters deciding what to do just by rules, tradition, or what’s socially acceptable. Think Jon wanting to go to Winterfell, but he needed the Ramsay’s threat to give himself a good reason for it. Catelyn wanted to go after the Lannisters, but couldn’t until LF (knowingly) handed over Tyrion on a silver platter. Lysa probably wanted Jon gone, but until she felt Robert threatened, didn’t have a good reason to do it. The Northerners wanted their own king, but until threatened and a good candidate showed up in Robb, nothing could be done. The upcoming cluster**** succession problems are set up to allow for the same thing and the Dance with the Dragons story bears that out. Lots more examples to be found.

Following the same pattern, it would fit nicely with the real characters that we do have if Aegon wanted to conquer Westeros in itself, but until he found something out, he couldn’t rationalize to himself to actually do it. Basically the difference between being another a**hole conqueror vs conquering for everyone's own good. That said, sometimes the rationalization only serves as a catalyst and little more in itself, meaning it wouldn't necessarily follow that Aegon was fully convinced of or let alone substantially planned for any threat beyond using it as a rationalization to pull the trigger.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

In the books proper, characters tend to have more complex motives than what the forum tends to attribute to them. Multiple motives are often treated as mutually exclusive when they're not. Same is true in real life. We rationalize more than any of us like to admit.

Characters are given ways to rationalize what they really want to do but otherwise wouldn’t if the rationalization wasn’t there. A character finding ways to do what they want, why they want, and how they want is much more interesting than characters deciding what to do just by rules, tradition, or what’s socially acceptable. Think Jon wanting to go to Winterfell, but he needed the Ramsay’s threat to give himself a good reason for it. Catelyn wanted to go after the Lannisters, but couldn’t until LF (knowingly) handed over Tyrion on a silver platter. Lysa probably wanted Jon gone, but until she felt Robert threatened, didn’t have a good reason to do it. The Northerners wanted their own king, but until threatened and a good candidate showed up in Robb, nothing could be done. The upcoming cluster**** succession problems are set up to allow for the same thing and the Dance with the Dragons story bears that out. Lots more examples to be found.

Following the same pattern, it would fit nicely with the real characters that we do have if Aegon wanted to conquer Westeros in itself, but until he found something out, he couldn’t rationalize to himself to actually do it. Basically the difference between being another a**hole conqueror vs conquering for everyone's own good. That said, sometimes the rationalization only serves as a catalyst and little more in itself, meaning it wouldn't necessarily follow that Aegon was fully convinced of or let alone substantially planned for any threat beyond using it as a rationalization to pull the trigger.

 

 

Well i think it's also that you have the matters of the Others, and this great threat. Yet every one seems absolutely oblivious. Apparently Aegon him self included. With such fanatics as Melisandre and the like, it's very hard to believe the Valyrians them selves were daft to it all. 

Consider this, if we have legends of the long night stretching as far as Asshai, popping up in Westerosi text books. Then the Valyrians should have access to the same knowledge base. 

To have and own dragons and not put 1 and 1 together and question your own origins in accordance to these legends is kind of daft. These are not Maesters in a world of dead magic, but dragon riders living in the time of Magic in it's prime. 

That's like some one conquering the middle east during the crusades and being oblivious to Jesus and Alah, and that your own religion is tied to the very place your trying to conquer. 

Aegon is showing the obliviousness of a modern day man doubting a supernatural world, while still riding his magical unicorn. Its daft

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