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GRRM: Speculation that Aegon "the Conqueror" knew about the Others


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1 minute ago, Lollygag said:


This applies regardless of time.

 

Completely disagree but knock your self out. If my magic socks prevented me from entering the stadium for the big game, id likely suspect some correlation. Same for Aegon, his dragons, and the wall. One is completely welcome to to add 1 and 1 and get 0 though. 

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15 minutes ago, Ran said:

I suspect that Rhaegar was the first Targaryen to connect the three heads of the dragon prophecy to the prince that was promised of the Azor Ahai prophecy. Possibly he conveyed this notion to Aemon, who certainly seemed to have corresponded with him.

Is there an Azor Ahai prophecy as such? I don't know. The 'crucial prophecy' seems to be the one the Targaryens have, the one about the smoke and salt, the promised prince, and the three heads.

Things like Mel's drawing burning sword from a fire, etc. seem to rather arbitrary - Benerro, who thinks Dany is Azor Ahai, doesn't mention this stuff - and sort of fit the theme if one equates the burning sword with the dragons. That also goes for Nissa Nissa as Drogo, etc.

Azor Ahai is just the hero from the past and the savior the Targaryens call the promised prince (at least since they are kings and their sons princes) is thought to be a rebirth/reincarnation of the ancient hero - but reincarnation only seems to be happening in the religions of the east - like orthodox R'hllorism as taught by Benerro.

With TWoIaF in mind I'd assume that the prophecy of the promised prince was made in Valyria, and, since there were religions from all over the world there, including followers of R'hllor, was amalgamated, equated, merged, included in other magical traditions and prophecies referring to apocalypse-like scenarios.

If it wasn't made in Valyria and connected to the dragonlords - or specifically the Targaryens - then the fact that they think it refers to them makes absolutely no sense. There must be a reason for that. And the prophecy our guys seem to care about mostly - even Melisandre when they discuss the birth place of Stannis and the amount of dragon blood the Baratheons have - the one about the promised prince, not the one which may be found in books in Asshai we are not likely ever to read.

I think the crucial prophecy developments in the more recent era are those:

1. The prophecy about the return of the dragons Aerys I found according to Egg may be the Targaryen/Valyrian version of the promised prince prophecy. He may have found 'the original' or at least whatever ancient version the Targaryens have. And that prophecy had a considerable influence on

2. Aegon V and his family and court. We have Egg trying to bring back the dragons which is likely based on his understanding or reinterpretation of that and/or other prophecies. And then we have his son, Jaehaerys II, actually caring about an 'addendum prophecy' the Ghost made about the prophecy of the promised prince. Jaehaerys II would have only forced his children to marry if he believed in the promised prince prophecy and if he cared to actually *produce* that guy. Vice versa, the Ghost would have only told Jaehaerys that prophecy if she deemed it important or in her interests that he knew that.

3. This puts Rhaegar's own life - as well as Aerys/Rhaella's desperation over getting more children into perspective. Rhaegar was trained to be the promised prince because his grandfather and great-granduncle and presumably his parents, too, believed he was that savior thanks to Summerhall. Rhaegar didn't arbitrarily read a some old scroll and chanced on a prophecy and then concluded he was the guy because he felt he fit all the vague criteria listed therein - his parents would have told him what they believed and how he had to read the prophecy and what had been prophesied to his grandfather, causing their own loveless marriage.

Rhaegar's own beliefs are unclear at this point. We don't know why he changed his mind about being the promised prince, or why he thought he Aegon should be the one, etc. Inside stimuli (like visions and dreams) are possible, just as outside stimuli (more prophecies of the Ghost or other seers).

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We are told Aegon made processions North. Which means he also likely visited the Wall. Which means his dragon likely responded to the Wall the same as Alysanne's dragons. I dont know why this is so confusing for you. Aegon should have suspected something. Unless he simply did not know about the prophecy and the Others. Which not knowing about the legend of the Others and seeing a big Ice wall would make one wonder. Even Jon and Tyrion are in shock and awe of the Wall and they don't have dragon's and magic active in their world. The Valyrians them selves having practiced dark arts. 

This isn't Stannis and idk how you can even compare them. Melisandre is more comparable. As she knows what's b.s. and what's likely not. Aegon should know certain dark arts are definitely a real thing. Making his cause for doubt in comparison to Stannis greatly different and non comparable. 

Now some other lord in Aegon's time may doubt sure, as he and his kind don't do magic and don't have dragons. Valyrians are a different sort though. He's not a Maester convinced magic is b.s., he's riding around on magic. Fire made flesh. Even if Aegon doesn't fully understand it. His levels of doubt would be no where near that of Stannis.

So again, as stated when talking and agreeing with Ran. I believe Ran but find it odd about Aegon unless Rhaegar was privy to more information. Considering Rhaegar never had dragons to try to pass the wall, he must have been privy to something more.

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

We are told Aegon made processions North. Which means he also likely visited the Wall. Which means his dragon likely responded to the Wall the same as Alysanne's dragons. I dont know why this is so confusing for you

And I don't get why you assume your assumptions are fact. To each their own, I guess. :dunno:

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9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And I don't get why you assume your assumptions are fact. To each their own, I guess. :dunno:

Its a simple set up of facts that we are already told in the books. Sure though, be smug and rude as per usual with you few. Specially since ive repeatedly already agreed with Ran, but sure. Go on.

Edit-Also nice snip of the rest of what i said and ignoring it. 

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Its a simple set up of facts that we are already told in the books. Sure though, be smug and rude as per usual with you few. Specially since ive repeatedly already agreed with Ran, but sure. Go on.

Sorry, but what? 

I wasn't rude at all. I simply disagreed w/ you. As a matter of fact, it's you who are being rude, claiming things are "obvious" and those who don't see it as you do are thick b/c you don't get "why it's all so confusing to you", or whatever. 

I simply said you were making assumptions, and taking said assumptions as facts. Which, btw, is true. We are given hints and clues, but there's nothing so far that is as obvious as you claim. 

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Apparently this is only when it fits your box. Shrugs

Speculation is fine, and it's what most of us do. Not you, though. You. Are so sure, and you don't understand why so many just "don't get it". LMAO

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The Azor Ahai prophecy is repeated by the R'hllorians and, per Melisandre, comes from ancient books of prophecy from Asshai.

The three heads of the dragon appears to be Valyrian prophecy, given their propensity for dragon dreams, and it doesn't seem crazy to imagine Daenys the Dreamer is the source. Melisandre never mentions anything about three-headed dragons in relation to her prophecy.

So, two different prophecies, but probably about the same thing. Dany's vision in the HotU is where we see the two explicitly put together by Rhaegar, and Aemon clearly corresponded with Rhaegar and seems to have bought the same notion .

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Sorry, but what? 

I wasn't rude at all. I simply disagreed w/ you. As a matter of fact, it's you who are being rude, claiming things are "obvious" and those who don't see it as you do are thick b/c you don't get "why it's all so confusing to you", or whatever. 

I simply said you were making assumptions, and taking said assumptions as facts. Which, btw, is true. We are given hints and clues, but there's nothing so far that is as obvious as you claim. 

Huh? We were debating the chances of whether or not Aegon had reason to suspect anything. Nothing more. Nothing about whether or not he actually did. We were debating an arbitrary thing we dont know enough about yet. There is nothing to be right of wrong about. 

To the previous person Lolligag i was expressing confusion over the differences in time with the presence of magic. Not chiding them or saying they wrong for their thoughts. Simply trying to list the reasons why Aegon should suspect something hypothetically even though agreeing with Ran that he obviously didn't.  

Your just jumping on out of now where to attack my confusion over there statement like some attack on them and stance that im some how right about something ive already agreed to Aegon being ignorant on. Just merely shocked by his ignorance. But go on

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3 minutes ago, Ran said:

The Azor Ahai prophecy is repeated by the R'hllorians and, per Melisandre, comes from ancient books of prophecy from Asshai.

The three heads of the dragon appears to be Valyrian prophecy, given their propensity for dragon dreams, and it doesn't seem crazy to imagine Daenys the Dreamer is the source. Melisandre's never mentions anything about three-headed dragons in relation to her prophecy.

So, two different prophecies, but probably about the same thing. Dany's vision in the HotU is where we see the two explicitly put together by Rhaegar, and Aemon clearly corresponded with Rhaegar and seems to have bought the same notion .

And there would be the pin. Even if going to the Wall and being turned back by dragons. Not knowing about Azor Ahai would reflect a lack of action on Aegon's part

 

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14 minutes ago, Ran said:

Let's stay civil folks.

Idk, it's looking like im wrong more about Queen's Crown hahaha i may devolve into madness lol jk. I would say that being wrong in your ideas and theories is equally as fun as being right. I want to be surprised. I personally enjoy thinking he is going one way and being revealed to be wrong, it would be terrible to think we got it right that easy 

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21 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Its a simple set up of facts that we are already told in the books. Sure though, be smug and rude as per usual with you few. Specially since ive repeatedly already agreed with Ran, but sure. Go on.

Edit-Also nice snip of the rest of what i said and ignoring it. 

I would suggest you try to frame your remarks to the material at hand instead of casting aspersions.

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

Let's stay civil folks.

Out with the old and in with the new.

The ASOIAF saga can no longer be discussed as a self contained story.

Theories now revolve around material released in TWOIAF, the App, TKotSK and the impending F & B AND HBO's show.

Hard core ASOIAF (novels, books, saga) fans can leave the site or embrace the idea martin is telling the story via extra material.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Ran said:

The Azor Ahai prophecy is repeated by the R'hllorians and, per Melisandre, comes from ancient books of prophecy from Asshai.

Even if she was right about that, those ancient books could have been full of stuff imported to Asshai from Valyria - millennia or centuries before or around the Doom.

I'd prefer if there was one original vision/prophecy which influenced other prophetic/religions traditions, but it certainly could also be two or more prophecies about the same person(s)/event.

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

The three heads of the dragon appears to be Valyrian prophecy, given their propensity for dragon dreams, and it doesn't seem crazy to imagine Daenys the Dreamer is the source. Melisandre never mentions anything about three-headed dragons in relation to her prophecy.

If Daenys were the source then Aemon is either way wrong here, or exaggerating:

Quote

What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.

Before we don't have a clear reference to Daenys as making the promised prince prophecy, it may have been prophecy far more ancient.

Although the idea that Daenys is connected to the whole thing would be more satisfying.

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

So, two different prophecies, but probably about the same thing. Dany's vision in the HotU is where we see the two explicitly put together by Rhaegar, and Aemon clearly corresponded with Rhaegar and seems to have bought the same notion .

Have you ever thought about why the Undying seem to know so much about Dany's fate? Is that just arbitrary magical stuff immortal sorcerers do, or is there something more to that?

With you telling us that George didn't want to cover Qarth in detail in TWoIaF, and the fact that chances are not that bad that Euron took Dragonbinder from the warlocks rather than going to Valyria, there is actually a pretty strong possibility that Pyat Pree found Dragonbinder in the ruins of the House of the Undying, and that it originally belonged to them - or one of them.

The Pureborn and warlocks, etc. may have warred against the Valyrians once, and captured such a horn. But what if those many Valyrian civil wars and power plays caused a dragonlord of great power (or one of those sorcerer princes) to go to Qarth into exile, taking key magical artifacts with him, among them Dragonbinder? As an Undying he could have been right there in the room with Dany, Drogon, and the Others.

There is potential there for interesting twists and turns in retrospect. Especially since we don't *really* understand yet what the Undying wanted to do with Dany. They had no interest in the dragons. They wanted her. Drogon saved her, not the other way around.

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

The Azor Ahai prophecy is repeated by the R'hllorians and, per Melisandre, comes from ancient books of prophecy from Asshai.

The three heads of the dragon appears to be Valyrian prophecy, given their propensity for dragon dreams, and it doesn't seem crazy to imagine Daenys the Dreamer is the source. Melisandre never mentions anything about three-headed dragons in relation to her prophecy.

So, two different prophecies, but probably about the same thing. Dany's vision in the HotU is where we see the two explicitly put together by Rhaegar, and Aemon clearly corresponded with Rhaegar and seems to have bought the same notion .

Drawing a blank atm... will F&B II cover the rest of the Targ kings, as in, all the way to the Mad King? B/c if so we may perhaps get a bit on Rhaegar's correspondence w/ maester Aemon? Possibility of juicy stuff there...

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Drawing a blank atm... will F&B II cover the rest of the Targ kings, as in, all the way to the Mad King? B/c if so we may perhaps get a bit on Rhaegar's correspondence w/ maester Aemon? Possibility of juicy stuff there...

I honestly hope it doesn't. I would very much like Vol. II cover Aegon III to Daeron II, ending with the Great Spring Sickness. The rest we should get in Dunk & Egg stories or not at all.

There is no chance Dunk & Egg stories will be fun if Gyldayn has given us everything beforehand. And he would have to give us pretty much everything aside from stories of the overall political importance of the TSS.

But Aegon III, Daeron I (with as much on Daeron's war as we are going to get on Jaehaerys and Alysanne, say), Baelor I, Viserys II, Aegon IV (with lots of quotes from the autobiography George intended to write), and Daeron II with the Blackfyre Rebellion should be great fun, too.

The modern stuff should better be dealt with in the series proper - and then perhaps flashed out some more in another history book.

And then there is the idea to have Yandel in Aemon's age write a history of the decades after the series is over.

I want to know what the surviving children do after they have grown up. That's the only way to see whether they implemented some lasting changes.

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10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If Daenys were the source then Aemon is either way wrong here, or exaggerating:

Aemon seems to have more information. Before he died, he told Sam to tell the maesters about everything, including some dream one of his brothers had. Whatever information he was in possession of, his brother's dream might be the what bridges the gap between the old info and all the new information he came across while in Braavos.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I honestly hope it doesn't. I would very much like Vol. II cover Aegon III to Daeron II, ending with the Great Spring Sickness. The rest we should get in Dunk & Egg stories or not at all.

There is no chance Dunk & Egg stories will be fun if Gyldayn has given us everything beforehand. And he would have to give us pretty much everything aside from stories of the overall political importance of the TSS.

But Aegon III, Daeron I (with as much on Daeron's war as we are going to get on Jaehaerys and Alysanne, say), Baelor I, Viserys II, Aegon IV (with lots of quotes from the autobiography George intended to write), and Daeron II with the Blackfyre Rebellion should be great fun, too.

The modern stuff should better be dealt with in the series proper - and then perhaps flashed out some more in another history book.

And then there is the idea to have Yandel in Aemon's age write a history of the decades after the series is over.

I want to know what the surviving children do after they have grown up. That's the only way to see whether they implemented some lasting changes.

But D&E can't really cover that, since both died at Summerhall, when Rhaegar was born. 

(I was talking specifically about R and A corresponding)

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2 hours ago, Ran said:

Ditto.

George was not lying. Even if the speculation is complete bullshit -- and I don't think it is -- his mentioning it to promote the book in a promotional video just seems like... a non-scandal? George appreciates that fans speculate, and fans like that they can speculate, so...

Yeah, anyways, I apologize for any umbrage taken with what I wrote, but I do stand by the sentiment that people were making a lot more of the video than was intended by George and Random House.

I apologize if I misunderstood your original posts, and the several subsequent posts that followed that reiterated why you believe the speculation George chose to talk about in his promo video is unlikely to be true, and was only designed to bridge, albeit in an unlikely to be true way, the content of ASOIAF and F&B for marketing purposes.  I clearly mistook your repeated and somewhat passionate rebuttals of the notion George presented in the video as you saying George would purposely draw attention to a false narrative if he and his publisher thought it might help sell more books.  In spite of the fact that we've had this profile for almost two years, we had never used it and aren't particularly familiar with the forum portion of your site or your posting style. We love the So Spake Martin section.  We use it all the time.  It's a tremendous resource and I can't thank you guys enough for putting it together.  Like I said earlier, I only ended up here because I clicked on the link for more Fire and Blood Excerpts and saw what you wrote and apparently incorrectly thought what you said was inappropriate.  Sorry for the misunderstanding and hope there are no hard feelings.

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