GRRM: Speculation that Aegon "the Conqueror" knew about the Others

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But D&E can't really cover that, since both died at Summerhall, when Rhaegar was born. 

(I was talking specifically about R and A corresponding)

Ah, okay, well, that could be revealed in the main series. There could be letters at CB and on Dragonstone, for instance.

But I actually think the more crucial guys in prophecy shenanigans will be both Jaehaerys II and Aerys II. They (and Rhaella) would have been the ones feeding Rhaegar's his strange ideas...

And Rhaegar changing his mind later on, etc. is going to be brought up by informed people and/or strange visions.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Ah, okay, well, that could be revealed in the main series. There could be letter at CB and on Dragonstone, for instance.

But I actually think the more crucial guys in prophecy shenanigans will be both Jaehaerys II and Aerys II. They (and Rhaella) would have been the ones feeding Rhaegar's his strange ideas...

And Rhaegar changing his mind later on, etc. is going to be brought up by informed people and/or strange visions.

Makes sense.

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I would very much like Vol. II cover Aegon III to Daeron II, ending with the Great Spring Sickness.

I agree, and it's almost like such a book could be subtitled Lives of [Six] Kings.

[Dorian Martell's son]

23 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Speculation is fine, and it's what most of us do. Not you, though. You. Are so sure, and you don't understand why so many just "don't get it". LMAO

srsly

[Lady Barbrey]

On 11/17/2018 at 4:37 PM, Ran said:

The Azor Ahai prophecy is repeated by the R'hllorians and, per Melisandre, comes from ancient books of prophecy from Asshai.

The three heads of the dragon appears to be Valyrian prophecy, given their propensity for dragon dreams, and it doesn't seem crazy to imagine Daenys the Dreamer is the source. Melisandre never mentions anything about three-headed dragons in relation to her prophecy.

So, two different prophecies, but probably about the same thing. Dany's vision in the HotU is where we see the two explicitly put together by Rhaegar, and Aemon clearly corresponded with Rhaegar and seems to have bought the same notion .

Yes, there are at least two heroes that need to be born (not to mention Bran, Brienne, Jamie, Arya and Tyrion).  

Dany is the heroine with three dragons and she will fight the Others. This is the dragon with three heads prophecy and means bringing dragons back in the world.

Jon is the song of ice and fire, and he will restore the seasons. It's likely the Last Hero was unable to kill his beloved in the final sacrifice, so Jon will be presented with that choice.

And the Others no doubt have their own prophecized hero, likely Benjen, they believe can bring down the Wall.

 

[Lady Rhodes]

On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 3:41 AM, Lady Barbrey said:

the dragon with three heads prophecy

I posted this on another thread, but I am starting to wonder if the three heads is similar to the three temperings of Lightbringer for AA. Tempering by water - head 1, tempering by lion - head 2. tempering by love - head three. Not sure, but a random thought

[Alexis-something-Rose]

While I do think that Aegon wanting to unite the 7Ks because of a possible prophecy floating around, one thing did strike me as somewhat odd when reading F&B. Aegon traveled all the way to Winterfell, but there isn't a peep about him ever going to the Wall. Wouldn't he want to take a look at the Wall and what's beyond if he was concerned with whatever is there?

It's sort of remarkable that we still don't know who the king who visited the Wall a 100 years ago and stayed at Castle Black is. If I had a guess to venture, it would be Aerys I.

[Ran]

That's the sort of thing I meant when I argued against George expressing a definite support of the theory. No mention of the Wall, no mention of the Night's Watch anywhere, no hints that his sons had any particular notions, no hint from Visenya or Rhaenys. If you just conquered the Seven Kingdoms to prepare for the Others, shouldn't you be making that some sort of key part of policy? And Aegon surrounded himself with maesters on his progresses, he never once murmured something to any of them? Or are we supposed to believe they hid such things because it didn't fit their world view? Barth didn't find anything in the records and his researches?

I believe Aegon and his sisters believe they were the "three heads of the dragon", and this meant to them that they were destined for greatness. That was achieved by the Conquest. They didn't need to go and say much more of it, because they weren't thinking in terms of dealing, or having their descendants dealing, with an apocalypse.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

I believe Aegon and his sisters believe they were the "three heads of the dragon", and this meant to them that they were destined for greatness. That was achieved by the Conquest. They didn't need to go and say much more of it, because they weren't thinking in terms of dealing, or having their descendants dealing, with an apocalypse.

I can see this. Aegon was only meant to conquer Westeros and nothing more. The Wall was basically none of his business. The prophecy does seem to have all these moving parts to it anyway. For one, I didn't even think he had gone to Winterfell. So I was just extra thrown that he didn't bother going all the way to the Wall.

[Lord Varys]

As I said earlier, even Jaehaerys II, Aerys II, and Rhaegar - who all believed in the promised prince prophecy - never give any indication they thought this had anything to do with the Wall or mythical ice-demons the First Men believed existed.

If they didn't believe that, then their ancestors didn't believe in that, either.

If I had to guess, then the prophecy as such only became interesting to them when they believed it meant/entailed the return of the dragons they so desperately craved. And that makes it not unlikely that Aerys I was indeed the one who rediscovered it - assuming Aegon and his sister had a copy of the prophecy on Dragonstone.

[Sea Dragon]

On November 16, 2018 at 6:08 AM, Lady Barbrey said:

Reading that quote, though, doesn't it seem obvious that the Valyrians did not come to Westeros then because there was no Valyria? Valyria starts rising not long after the Long Night ends.  It is far more likely that the Last Hero was a dragon rider, who defeated the Others and built a few structures of fused black stone, had some descendents and they migrated to Essos.  They became the Valyrians.

And that is why Aegon would know of the Others.

Valyrian people existed before Valyria the country or town or whatever. The name arrived with the people, so Valyrians in Westeros is still correct. 

[Sea Dragon]

Wow. I am trying to read this big book and it is great but I know it will take me a long time to finish it. I guess I just do not see anything yet that points to Aegon knowing any prophecy about the Others or long night or anything. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As I said earlier, even Jaehaerys II, Aerys II, and Rhaegar - who all believed in the promised prince prophecy - never give any indication they thought this had anything to do with the Wall or mythical ice-demons the First Men believed existed.

We don't know what Jaehaerys II was up to in his youth or Rhaegar for that matter. We know there is one king who came after Aegon III who did bother going to the Wall while he was king. And we wouldn't even know that Egg traveled north to Winterfell and possibly the Wall if it wasn't for the novellas.  

[Black Dragons]

I don't think so because after he made King he never ahead to North or Visit the Land of Always Winter.

[Aegon VII]

On 11/17/2018 at 2:42 PM, Ran said:

His mentioning that fans speculate about things is not and of itself a certain endorsement of that speculation being true or false, however, as he's mentioned many things fans speculate about over the years without necessarily saying there's something to it or not. He appreciates how clever and devoted his fans are, even if he knows some of those theories are wrong. He expects other fans would be interested in these speculations. 

I believe I heard at one time that grrm doesn’t really follow fan discussions and theories too closely. This leads me to believe that if he mentions a fan theory, it’s probably because it’s a popular one that he’s come across. Aegon preparing for the long night does not seem like a big one. Obviously it’s been around forever, but I think he would only come across it if he used the forums (which I believe he says he doesn’t) or if someone asked him about it directly.

I wonder if there’s any ssms with him being asked about it specifically. It would also be interesting to look at the other times he’s used this wording, to see how big of theories he usually references.

Either way way I do believe his statement supports it being true. This could partially be because I believe it.

[Free Northman Reborn]

On 11/17/2018 at 7:48 AM, Lord Varys said:

Silverwing doesn't do that, not necessarily all dragons. What should be kept in mind at that point is that Silverwing is a pretty young dragon at that point, and not Vhagar or Balerion. We have no idea what they would have done in her stead.

Ok, how about this statement, then:  So far, in 100% of the examples we have, dragons have refused to fly over the Wall.

[Ran]

4 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

I believe I heard at one time that grrm doesn’t really follow fan discussions and theories too closely.

While this is true, people sometimes ask him questions about their theories -- so if someone ever asked him at a signing about whether Aegon and his sisters invaded Westeros because of the Others, well, clearly someone is speculating about it.  And besides that there are times people in his circle sometimes point him to things. He's aware of the Meereenese Blot series of essays, for example, because of this. 

And he certainly used to look at the old Dragonstone and Eesite forums, and I'm pretty sure the very first noodlings about this was from that era, so again, could have seen it then.

[Slaver's Dread]

On 11/17/2018 at 8:19 PM, Lord Varys said:

3. This puts Rhaegar's own life - as well as Aerys/Rhaella's desperation over getting more children into perspective. Rhaegar was trained to be the promised prince because his grandfather and great-granduncle and presumably his parents, too, believed he was that savior thanks to Summerhall. Rhaegar didn't arbitrarily read a some old scroll and chanced on a prophecy and then concluded he was the guy because he felt he fit all the vague criteria listed therein - his parents would have told him what they believed and how he had to read the prophecy and what had been prophesied to his grandfather, causing their own loveless marriage.

Rhaegar's own beliefs are unclear at this point. We don't know why he changed his mind about being the promised prince, or why he thought he Aegon should be the one, etc. Inside stimuli (like visions and dreams) are possible, just as outside stimuli (more prophecies of the Ghost or other seers).

Rhaegar's grandfather died when Rhaegar was 3 right after the War of the Ninepenny Kings. He was not influenced whatsoever by Jaehaerys.

Why do you also assume that Aerys would have told him anything about TPTWP? Nothing in the text says Aerys was a believer. In fact he didn't even like Rhaella.

Rhaegar most likely read part or all of Signs & Portents. If TPTWP, which is totally about bringing back the lost dragons, was anywhere that could be read it would be in that book.

Its also super obvious why Rhaegar would think he was TPTWP. Since the dragons died all dragon symbols were taken to equate to an actual living member of House Targaryen. If you believe the symbolism of a dragon hatching at Summerhall, how many people fit that bill?

[Slaver's Dread]

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Ok, how about this statement, then:  So far, in 100% of the examples we have, dragons have refused to fly over the Wall.

You fail at science. Your hypothesis needs to be replicated if you want it to accepted as a peer reviewed addition to the canon. This might also be a moot point if the wall is down by the time any of Dany's dragons get there.

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 minutes ago, Slaver's Dread said:

You fail at science. Your hypothesis needs to be replicated if you want it to accepted as a peer reviewed addition to the canon. This might also be a moot point if the wall is down by the time any of Dany's dragons get there.

Fortunately, our theories need not pass a peer review benchmark, else this forum would not exist. We’re not contemplating the Drake equation here, my friend. We are musing over whether George gave us the Silverwing example as a hint at something bigger. Or whether he just wanted to show that a young dragon was scared of stuff that an old dragon would snort at. Now, which is more likely?