GRRM: Speculation that Aegon "the Conqueror" knew about the Others

[Slaver's Dread]

On 11/23/2018 at 11:47 PM, Sea Dragon said:

Wow. I am trying to read this big book and it is great but I know it will take me a long time to finish it. I guess I just do not see anything yet that points to Aegon knowing any prophecy about the Others or long night or anything. 

You have to connect a few dots first. The reason I think the Targaryens went to Dragonstone in the first place is that Daenys the Dreamer saw that, "the Doom of Man will come from the lands beyond the Narrow Sea." If this is true a lot of things make sense.

Everyone wants to know if we will see 'The Dying of the Dragons' in the Citadel arc. I'm way more interested of the possibility of 'Signs & Portents' the book of prophecies that Daenys wrote is there.

[Slaver's Dread]

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Fortunately, our theories need not pass a peer review benchmark, else this forum would not exist. We’re not contemplating the Drake equation here, my friend. We are musing over whether George gave us the Silverwing example as a hint at something bigger. Or whether he just wanted to show that a young dragon was scared of stuff that an old dragon would snort at. Now, which is more likely?

To discuss and to be accepted are two different things. The biggest problem is we don't know how it works. Could Silverwing literally not fly over the Wall? What about flying around? Did Silverwing just not want to go?

All we really are told in the main series is that something cuts a magical connection between beings connected by magic if they are on different sides. Then again Bloodraven shoots that theory all to hell.

Discussion isn't really the problem. It's only when we say, this is how it works, when all examples of similar situations contradict each other, does it not pass the smell test.

[Ran]

25 minutes ago, Slaver's Dread said:

Then again Bloodraven shoots that theory all to hell.

It appears that the weirwoods of Westeros are a giant clonal colony, the roots are all bound together, allowing the magic to flow under the Wall if you use the weirwoods as a conduit.

This is also why Bran was able to appear in Jon's dream in ACoK, having unwittingly dreamed himself through the heart tree to reach Jon beyond the Wall. That is likely why Bran appears as a weirwood tree to Jon, a reflection of that. (And before anyone says it, we have Bran explicitly recalling seeing and talking to Jon in a dream in ACoK, so this isn't a time travel thing.)

[Slaver's Dread]

9 minutes ago, Ran said:

It appears that the weirwoods of Westeros are a giant clonal colony, the roots are all bound together, allowing the magic to flow under the Wall if you use the weirwoods as a conduit.

This is also why Bran was able to appear in Jon's dream in ACoK, having unwittingly dreamed himself through the heart tree to reach Jon beyond the Wall. That is likely why Bran appears as a weirwood tree to Jon, a reflection of that. (And before anyone says it, we have Bran explicitly recalling seeing and talking to Jon in a dream in ACoK, so this isn't a time travel thing.)

So would that be a confirmation of the Others using Weirwood magic to wake the Wights? Those two Wights that are brought south of the Wall seem to be activated like a time bomb, when the first Wight we see in story is activated immediately.

[Ran]

4 minutes ago, Slaver's Dread said:

So would that be a confirmation of the Others using Weirwood magic to wake the Wights? Those two Wights that are brought south of the Wall seem to be activated like a time bomb, when the first Wight we see in story is activated immediately.

I think they're a different thing, namely that wights can't pass the Wall under their own power because the magic of the Wall prevents them. But leave them lying next to the Wall, have people carry them over, and they work. It's like Melisandre and her shadow at Storm's End, the shadow had to be carried beneath the walls for Melisandre to be able to unleash it. 

As to their behavior, I see wights as basically automatons. I don't think the Others were literally controlling their every action when they woke in Castle Black. They may well have been "programmed" beyond the Wall, but that's it.

[HexMachina]

47 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think they're a different thing, namely that wights can't pass the Wall under their own power because the magic of the Wall prevents them. But leave them lying next to the Wall, have people carry them over, and they work. It's like Melisandre and her shadow at Storm's End, the shadow had to be carried beneath the walls for Melisandre to be able to unleash it. 

As to their behavior, I see wights as basically automatons. I don't think the Others were literally controlling their every action when they woke in Castle Black. They may well have been "programmed" beyond the Wall, but that's it.

So a little like the idea of having to invite a vampire into your home sort of thing with the wights being carried through the wall? Interesting, as is your speculation on the Weirwood roots as a conduit. By far the most convincing explanation for the Bran/Jon dream in Clash I have seen anyway

[Tucu]

56 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think they're a different thing, namely that wights can't pass the Wall under their own power because the magic of the Wall prevents them. But leave them lying next to the Wall, have people carry them over, and they work. It's like Melisandre and her shadow at Storm's End, the shadow had to be carried beneath the walls for Melisandre to be able to unleash it. 

As to their behavior, I see wights as basically automatons. I don't think the Others were literally controlling their every action when they woke in Castle Black. They may well have been "programmed" beyond the Wall, but that's it.

In F&B there is a tale of thousands of wildlings bypassing The Wall by walking across the frozen sea in 134 AC. It sounds like The Wall has a severe flaw if it was designed to stop wight invasions during the harshest winters (unless the magic extends over the sea beyond The Wall).

[The Sleeper]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

It appears that the weirwoods of Westeros are a giant clonal colony, the roots are all bound together, allowing the magic to flow under the Wall if you use the weirwoods as a conduit.

This is also why Bran was able to appear in Jon's dream in ACoK, having unwittingly dreamed himself through the heart tree to reach Jon beyond the Wall. That is likely why Bran appears as a weirwood tree to Jon, a reflection of that. (And before anyone says it, we have Bran explicitly recalling seeing and talking to Jon in a dream in ACoK, so this isn't a time travel thing.)

Bran's coma vision and something that BR later said that he would see beyond the trees suggests that what greenseers do does not depend on geography or any medium of some sort. Other types of clairvoyance don't seem confined by geography. Stannis had a vision of the Fist after all. The use of "flight" to describe Bran's abilities implies the same. 

[Bowen Marsh]

Aegon believing in the long night doesn't change much of anything.  We already know about the Prince that was promised and Azor Ahai.  Both happened when Daenerys Targaryen hatched her dragons on the Dothraki Sea.  The prophecy has been fulfilled.  

[Slaver's Dread]

10 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Aegon believing in the long night doesn't change much of anything.  We already know about the Prince that was promised and Azor Ahai.  Both happened when Daenerys Targaryen hatched her dragons on the Dothraki Sea.  The prophecy has been fulfilled.  

While I agree with you 100%, too many people disagree for this to be settled.

[Slaver's Dread]

26 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Bran's coma vision and something that BR later said that he would see beyond the trees suggests that what greenseers do does not depend on geography or any medium of some sort. Other types of clairvoyance don't seem confined by geography. Stannis had a vision of the Fist after all. The use of "flight" to describe Bran's abilities implies the same. 

The other main form of clairvoyance has a limitation though. Namely height and unobstructed view is required for the sight of glass candles to span long distances. The one time Bran's vision spans continents he has both height and an unobstructed view.

[Slaver's Dread]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

In F&B there is a tale of thousands of wildlings bypassing The Wall by walking across the frozen sea in 134 AC. It sounds like The Wall has a severe flaw if it was designed to stop wight invasions during the harshest winters (unless the magic extends over the sea beyond The Wall).

There is also probably a mountain path on the opposite side that undead should have no problem traversing. I shouldn't say path as they would probably be the ones breaking in the terrain.

Ugh, when you realize your brain is not actually a thesaurus.

[Tucu]

9 minutes ago, Slaver's Dread said:

There is also probably a mountain path on the opposite side that undead should have no problem traversing. I shouldn't say path as they would probably be the ones breaking in the terrain.

Ugh, when you realize your brain is not actually a thesaurus.

The Gorge seems to have deep cliffs in both sides and the Bridge of Skulls could be destroyed by the NW, so walking over the fronzen sea in the east of the Wall and on the frozen river mouth west of The Gorge seems to be the main weaknesses

[Ran]

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

Bran's coma vision and something that BR later said that he would see beyond the trees suggests that what greenseers do does not depend on geography or any medium of some sort. Other types of clairvoyance don't seem confined by geography.

On the contrary, the trees are central to what the greenseers do, looking at that chapter again. That they can see "beyond" them means, I think, that the conduit of the trees then allows the greenseer to project their vision even beyond what the trees see, but they use the trees to get "close" to that point before they push on.

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

Stannis had a vision of the Fist after all. The use of "flight" to describe Bran's abilities implies the same. 

Prophetic visions are different. They depict things that will be, part of the... I don't know, the tapestry of time or something, for lack of a better term. They are not real-time, the way that a skinchanger projecting himself into an animal is, or a greenseer moving through the roots to put their consciousness somewhere else. The Wall doesn't effect time. It's a barrier to... gosh, I don't know, direct magic I guess, as the walls of Storm's End were a barrier to direct magic.

[The Sleeper]

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

On the contrary, the trees are central to what the greenseers do, looking at that chapter again. That they can see "beyond" them means, I think, that the conduit of the trees then allows the greenseer to project their vision even beyond what the trees see, but they use the trees to get "close" to that point before they push on. 

Quite literally the first supernatural thing Bran does, long before being "wedded to the trees" is "fly". In that vision the heart tree is mentioned as a separate presence acknowledging Bran but nothing that suggests that he was experiencing these things through the trees. The weirwoods are essential as living records and their eventual residing place. And Bran can draw directly from the knowledge and experience of old greenseers and learn how to be one. But the trees teach him how to be a greenseer, they do not make him one. 

 

48 minutes ago, Ran said:

Prophetic visions are different. They depict things that will be, part of the... I don't know, the tapestry of time or something, for lack of a better term. They are not real-time, the way that a skinchanger projecting himself into an animal is, or a greenseer moving through the roots to put their consciousness somewhere else. The Wall doesn't effect time. It's a barrier to... gosh, I don't know, direct magic I guess, as the walls of Storm's End were a barrier to direct magic.

Why would they be different? It seems to me that Bran's first coma vision had plenty of prophetic elements as well, including the birth of Dany's dragons and the results of Jon's stabbing. I think that the various forms of clairvoyance are glimpses and snapshots of what Bran can see as a vista. I also don't see how real time applies to any of this. The Wall in the end is a geographical barrier and Bran when he "flies" goes beyond space and time so it simply doesn't affect him. 

[Bael's Bastard]

@The Sleeper

That is a bizarre interpretation. You seem to be forgetting or ignoring the fact that Bloodraven was the one who, through the trees, came to Bran in dreams.

"I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late." (ADWD: Bran II)

[Ygrain]

On 11/23/2018 at 9:58 PM, Ran said:

That's the sort of thing I meant when I argued against George expressing a definite support of the theory. No mention of the Wall, no mention of the Night's Watch anywhere, no hints that his sons had any particular notions, no hint from Visenya or Rhaenys. If you just conquered the Seven Kingdoms to prepare for the Others, shouldn't you be making that some sort of key part of policy? And Aegon surrounded himself with maesters on his progresses, he never once murmured something to any of them? Or are we supposed to believe they hid such things because it didn't fit their world view? Barth didn't find anything in the records and his researches?

I believe Aegon and his sisters believe they were the "three heads of the dragon", and this meant to them that they were destined for greatness. That was achieved by the Conquest. They didn't need to go and say much more of it, because they weren't thinking in terms of dealing, or having their descendants dealing, with an apocalypse.

I agree, GRRM never expressed considering the theory true (while the internet went nuts supposing he did) and you are certainly right that Aegon's lack of interest in the far North doesn't exactly fit with a purposeful mission against the Others, but I still wouldn't rule it out entirely. First, Aegon is said to be an enigma, close to no-one except Orys. For such a person, not confiding anything to anyone is not outside the realm of possibility, and it might even be a strategy, not letting the enemy know that preparations are under way. Second, Aegon may have been familiar with, or may have understood, only a part of the prophecy/prophecies - enough to compel him to conquer and unite Westeros but without specifying the nature of the threat requiring a united stand. - Something like the Stallion prophecy: the khalasars will be united and led elsewhere, but the reason is not stated. 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Slaver's Dread said:

Rhaegar's grandfather died when Rhaegar was 3 right after the War of the Ninepenny Kings. He was not influenced whatsoever by Jaehaerys.

I never said Jaehaerys II directly influenced Rhaegar, did I? But what's quite clear that Jaehaerys II did buy into the same prophecy Rhaegar later believed in and that he forced his children to marry each other because of it. If Aerys II and Rhaella didn't care about that prophecy Rhaegar would have never seen or read it - especially not as a child.

5 hours ago, Slaver's Dread said:

Why do you also assume that Aerys would have told him anything about TPTWP? Nothing in the text says Aerys was a believer. In fact he didn't even like Rhaella.

Somebody must have told him and somebody must have allowed him to read an obscure prophecy as a child. Since Aemon was at the Wall and Jaehaerys II dead this only leaves his royal parents. In addition, Rhaegar would not just have bought he was some fantasy savior if just anyone had told him the prophecy referred to him. It must have been people who were close to him, people who actually told him what happened at Summerhall.

Who else could have done that besides his parents?

[Unacosamedarisa]

4 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

It seems to me that Bran's first coma vision had plenty of prophetic elements as well, including the birth of Dany's dragons and the results of Jon's stabbing.

Did it? He sees Dragons, but they're in Asshai by the Shadow, further east than where Dany's dragons were born. Perhaps he's just seeing dragons out that way. And as for Jon, this is the passage we get... 

Quote

He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. 

This doesn't have to be Jon dying after being stabbed, it can also be Jon being changed by his revelation that the Watch is not the great, noble institution he believed it to be, his development into someone who has to make hard, calculated choices, from the bastard boy Jon Snow to a Man of the Watch... someone who'll use icy logic, rather than his fiery passion.  

To me, though there are some prophetic elements to the vision (the shadows of the Hound and Jaime are "around" Ned, Sansa and Arya, implying that, though they threaten them now, in future they could also defend them from that position, whereas the Mountain "looms" above them all as a threat, and his empty helmet = Gregor's lack of a head, maybe), most everything else seems be happening at the time Bran is having the vision... like he's getting a real-time view of the world... Catelyn on the boat, Ned pleading for Lady's life, Sansa crying herself to sleep over Lady, Arya holding her guilt over Mycah's death to herself, and Jon being hardened up. 

[Ran]

Given the role of the three-eyed crow, I think we're to take it now that Bran's being assisted by the last greenseer to see well beyond the trees (as we know he's capable of), and gets that mixture of "green dream" prophecy and the sort of "remote viewing" jumbled together. So I don't really see anything inconsistent. Although it's certainly possible that that scene in AGoT was before George fully refined his views of how some of this magic must work, and so may not be entirely consistent with what he'll show going forward.