GRRM: Speculation that Aegon "the Conqueror" knew about the Others

[The Sleeper]

52 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

@The Sleeper

That is a bizarre interpretation. You seem to be forgetting or ignoring the fact that Bloodraven was the one who, through the trees, came to Bran in dreams.

"I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late." (ADWD: Bran II)

I don't recall anywhere stating that Bloodraven was watching things through the trees. Nor do I see how Bloodraven watching Bran is inconsistent with my interpretation. Having the same ability as Bran has, that he can use at will, he can watch anything he wants. 

 

44 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Did it? He sees Dragons, but they're in Asshai by the Shadow, further east than where Dany's dragons were born. Perhaps he's just seeing dragons out that way. And as for Jon, this is the passage we get... 

This doesn't have to be Jon dying after being stabbed, it can also be Jon being changed by his revelation that the Watch is not the great, noble institution he believed it to be, his development into someone who has to make hard, calculated choices, from the bastard boy Jon Snow to a Man of the Watch... someone who'll use icy logic, rather than his fiery passion.  

To me, though there are some prophetic elements to the vision (the shadows of the Hound and Jaime are "around" Ned, Sansa and Arya, implying that, though they threaten them now, in future they could also defend them from that position, whereas the Mountain "looms" above them all as a threat, and his empty helmet = Gregor's lack of a head, maybe), most everything else seems be happening at the time Bran is having the vision... like he's getting a real-time view of the world... Catelyn on the boat, Ned pleading for Lady's life, Sansa crying herself to sleep over Lady, Arya holding her guilt over Mycah's death to herself, and Jon being hardened up. 

There are many parts of the vision that can only be seen figuratively and things that happened in sequence are viewed as contemporaneous, such as the pleading for Lady's life and the aftermath of her death. And how precisely do secrets in someone's heart look like. Likewise certain elements that appear literal can be taken figurative as well. Catelyn was running before a literal and a figurative storm. The dragon eggs were said to have been from Asshai, they were well East and there is that phrase "beneath the sunrise". The day that has not come yet. There is also plenty of foreshadowing for Jon coming back from the dead to ignore the image of him growing colder as being both figurative and literal. 

In short Bran was seeing everything, everywhere, present and future, tangible and intangible. 

[The Sleeper]

36 minutes ago, Ran said:

Given the role of the three-eyed crow, I think we're to take it now that Bran's being assisted by the last greenseer to see well beyond the trees (as we know he's capable of), and gets that mixture of "green dream" prophecy and the sort of "remote viewing" jumbled together. So I don't really see anything inconsistent. Although it's certainly possible that that scene in AGoT was before George fully refined his views of how some of this magic must work, and so may not be entirely consistent with what he'll show going forward.

If you consider that Bran's and Bloodraven's ability to be  independent of the trees, there is nothing inconsistent. 

[Ran]

They have abilities that are "independent" of the trees, but these abilities have greater limits without the trees. 

Bran has prophetic visions, the same "green dreams" as Jojen. But he is also a skinchanger. This seems to be what's required for someone to be a greenseer, to be "wed to the trees" and through the trees be able to see by choice into the past, to be able to see and even communicate wherever the trees roots reach, and ultimately to be able to use the trees as a conduit to see where the roots don't reach.

Bran doesn't see anything in his first dream until the three-eyed crow appears and helps him and guides him. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

This doesn't have to be Jon dying after being stabbed, it can also be Jon being changed by his revelation that the Watch is not the great, noble institution he believed it to be, his development into someone who has to make hard, calculated choices, from the bastard boy Jon Snow to a Man of the Watch... someone who'll use icy logic, rather than his fiery passion. 

I started a thread a while back on this. Attached if you're interested. 

Spoiler: the wall is blue in the vision, white at the stabbing. 

[The Sleeper]

21 minutes ago, Ran said:

They have abilities that are "independent" of the trees, but these abilities have greater limits without the trees. 

Where do you base this on? 

 

25 minutes ago, Ran said:

Bran has prophetic visions, the same "green dreams" as Jojen. But he is also a skinchanger. This seems to be what's required for someone to be a greenseer, to be "wed to the trees" and through the trees be able to see by choice into the past, to be able to see and even communicate wherever the trees roots reach, and ultimately to be able to use the trees as a conduit to see where the roots don't reach.

I don't recall Bran having any prophetic dreams, at least not in the sense Jojen appears to, with the caveat of not having the latter's POV. Bran's seems a lot more specific to me and for lack of a better word interactive. These also happen long before his interaction with the weirwoods enter the picture. As I see Bran's ability as an out-of-body state of consciousness it ties with skinchanging but differs in degree. 

 

33 minutes ago, Ran said:

Bran doesn't see anything in his first dream until the three-eyed crow appears and helps him and guides him. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

What does this have to do with his ability being dependent on the trees? To use an analogy people have to learn how to swim, but they already have the arms and legs to swim with and can float. It was something he was born capable of and the Crow showed him how to do it. 

[AlaskanSandman]

7 hours ago, Ran said:

They have abilities that are "independent" of the trees, but these abilities have greater limits without the trees. 

Bran has prophetic visions, the same "green dreams" as Jojen. But he is also a skinchanger. This seems to be what's required for someone to be a greenseer, to be "wed to the trees" and through the trees be able to see by choice into the past, to be able to see and even communicate wherever the trees roots reach, and ultimately to be able to use the trees as a conduit to see where the roots don't reach.

Bran doesn't see anything in his first dream until the three-eyed crow appears and helps him and guides him. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

That makes more sense of Bran's fire vision while waiting for Meera in the Cave after Br shows him a bunch of tree visions. Wouldn't that be considered odd though that the Starks and Targaryen's have the same powers? Since im assuming Br's Blackwood side gives him the tree powers, not the fire powers. Or is that not right?

[JNR]

23 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I don't recall Bran having any prophetic dreams

It depends on whether you interpret his coma dream as his dream, that contains manifestly prophetic elements... or something the 3EC essentially concocted and put in Bran's head as a show.

The phrasing in the dream could support either interpretation IMO. 

Bran is choosing what to look at:

Quote

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

But if it's the 3EC's show, that's not saying much -- that would be like the 3EC setting a mental stage, and Bran choosing what to look at on the stage.

However, it does seem that Bran never again has that sort of dream.  Instead, he is dependent on Jojen as they go north, for key information like which castle has the secret way through the Wall.

Quote

 

Bran had told them there wouldn't be. He had told them and told them, but Jojen Reed had insisted on seeing for himself. He had had a green dream, he said, and his green dreams did not lie. They don't open any gates either, thought Bran.

 

So to whatever extent Bran has greendreams, they don't seem to be as common or as powerful as Jojen's.

[Ygrain]

On 12/3/2018 at 3:47 PM, Unacosamedarisa said:

whereas the Mountain "looms" above them all as a threat, and his empty helmet = Gregor's lack of a head, maybe),

Or perhaps it's not Gregor ;-)

[bent branch]

On 12/3/2018 at 5:47 AM, Lord Varys said:

I never said Jaehaerys II directly influenced Rhaegar, did I? But what's quite clear that Jaehaerys II did buy into the same prophecy Rhaegar later believed in and that he forced his children to marry each other because of it. If Aerys II and Rhaella didn't care about that prophecy Rhaegar would have never seen or read it - especially not as a child.

Somebody must have told him and somebody must have allowed him to read an obscure prophecy as a child. Since Aemon was at the Wall and Jaehaerys II dead this only leaves his royal parents. In addition, Rhaegar would not just have bought he was some fantasy savior if just anyone had told him the prophecy referred to him. It must have been people who were close to him, people who actually told him what happened at Summerhall.

Who else could have done that besides his parents?

I think Rhaegar could have had some influence from his parents because they were forced to marry because of the prophecy. We know Aerys and Rhaella were never really happy with each other and if they had even one argument where this issue was brought up Rhaegar would have been made aware of the prophecy from that. I think I'm providing support for what you're saying, but maybe my thoughts aren't overly clear today.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, bent branch said:

I think Rhaegar could have had some influence from his parents because they were forced to marry because of the prophecy. We know Aerys and Rhaella were never really happy with each other and if they had even one argument where this issue was brought up Rhaegar would have been made aware of the prophecy from that. I think I'm providing support for what you're saying, but maybe my thoughts aren't overly clear today.

That's the gist of it. At this point, we don't know whether Aerys/Rhaella cared much about the prophecy (I think they did, and that's the reason why their lack of children started to really trouble them over the years), but even if they did not - they most definitely knew about the prophecy due to the circumstances of their own marriage. The idea that the preteen Rhaegar would have stumbled on the prophecy that caused his own parents to marry without any guidance from them makes very little sense - his grandfather was dead, and Aemon was at the Wall. And without anyone the young boy trusted and looked up to he would have never developed the notion this prophecy was supposed to refer to him.

The Summerhall interpretation of the prophecy - smoke from the fire, salt from the tears of the survivors - isn't something little Rhaegar could have come up with all by himself. Somebody must have told him that this is how they interpreted the thing. And the best candidates there are his parents.

[BlueNightzx]

thats huge, now a lot of things make sense why he didn't ravel in his conquest, was reserved and introspective, he didn't see westeros as his personal conquest for his own glory, he was doing his duty to make preparations to the wars to come against an unspeakable evil, that put a lot of pieces together.

[The Sleeper]

13 hours ago, JNR said:

It depends on whether you interpret his coma dream as his dream, that contains manifestly prophetic elements... or something the 3EC essentially concocted and put in Bran's head as a show.

The phrasing in the dream could support either interpretation IMO. 

Bran is choosing what to look at:

But if it's the 3EC's show, that's not saying much -- that would be like the 3EC setting a mental stage, and Bran choosing what to look at on the stage.

However, it does seem that Bran never again has that sort of dream.  Instead, he is dependent on Jojen as they go north, for key information like which castle has the secret way through the Wall.

So to whatever extent Bran has greendreams, they don't seem to be as common or as powerful as Jojen's.

I think of it as a higher state of consciousness in which he can see the future. He does seem to have another instance of entering such a state when he was in the crypts and linked Jon with Ghost. He can't do it on demand as of yet which is why he needs to learn. 

I understand Jojen to have dreams about specific events which are considerably narrower in scope and more symbolic. And he doesn't seem to have any control over what he sees.

There are other characters who have had weird dreams and they include Theon and Jaime. The former foresaw Robb's death in the feast of the dead he saw and Jaime saw his mother and that dream that prompted him to go save Brienne. If I recall correctly he had both while sleeping on a weirwood stump. I suppose one could argue that the whole of Winterfell can be affected by the heart tree there. 

I do think the weirwoods can influence people and put stuff in their head. It would explain the curse of Harrenhal. The God's Eye or the heart tree really does not want people living in Harrenhal and takes steps to drive them nuts.

The question that would arise would be why did the 3 eyed crow/old gods rely on Jojen to tell Bran what's what and not talk to him, send visions to him directly. One possible answer is that they can't, unless Bran is otherwise susceptible or allows it.

Ultimately, it seems to me that if the visions came from the trees or an external source, then anybody could have done it and being a greenseer would be a job not an ability. Which by the way is what I think the worship of the old gods came down to. Why would Bran be necessary? It would make more sense to approach any of the adults in Winterfell. Even better Howland Reed could have come himself. 

The way I see it, it makes more sense that the 3 eyed Crow had limits in its ability to contact people, Jojen is extra susceptible to contact and Bran having the capacity to reach the capacity to reach the state of consciousness as when he was in a coma is what makes him a greenseer. 

 

[The Sleeper]

On the subject at hand, the very Targaryen banner is a reference to the prophecy. It seems that the prophecy influenced Aegon's decision to conquer the seven kingdoms as well as the shape of the government to come. How much he knew and if he knew what the prophesy is another matter. 

It might be that the latter he received from Dorne persuaded him that he was not the Prince that was Promised, which he then confirmed by consulting certain texts on Dragonstone. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I don't think it matters whether he conquered because of a prophecy or because he got bored. Granted, if he conquered because of the prophecy, then it adds something more to the story.

Aegon and his sisters had their role to play and the conquest was not entirely successful because Dorne refused to be subdued. If there was a prophecy, then Daeron the Good brought it full circle when he married his Dornish princess.

Jaehaerys had Aerys and Rhaella marry, and whatever his heroics were at Summerhall, Duncan the Tall gave Valarr the answer to his question in the Hedge Knight, when he asked him why he lived while Baelor died. If Dunc saved Rhaella and Rhaegar from the wildfire, then the ramifications of that become rather important.

Prophecy or not, some characters have played a crucial role in helping fulfill it and move it along to where we are now. 

ETA - One thing we don't know about Aegon and I doubt we will ever find out is if he had dragon dreams. If he did, it could have been deciding factor for him to go on ahead and try and conquer Westeros.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 11/15/2018 at 5:30 PM, Ran said:

Going to head things off by noting that George prefaces his remark by saying "There is a lot of speculation".

This video would give the impression that that speculation is in the book... but in fact, it is not. There is nothing like it whatsoever in F&B. George is referring to speculation from fans.

That he brings it up at all may indeed mean fans should give this theory some credence. But I'd suggest that he's bringing it up just as a way to bridge the content of F&B to ASoIaF/GoT, because after all this is a video aimed at making people who are familiar with the latter interested in buying the former.

@Ran

I appreciate you giving this disclaimer early in the thread before we assume too much.

As you note, Gyldayn in Fire and Blood does not suggest or speculate about any such motive for Aegon I's invasion, and we shouldn't expect him to have such knowledge anyways.

I would agree that the fact that he brought up such fan speculation gives us reason to consider the possibility that there is something to it. It's an odd thing to just randomly bring up. But I also think GRRM's wording is important.

If there is anything to such speculation, GRRM's use of "in some sense he saw what was coming" cautions us against assuming that Aegon had any explicit visions or knowledge of what is coming in the current story, or when.

But he would have had access to the histories and traditions telling of what happened millennia ago, and his family seemingly had traditions and prophecies about what was to come at some point in the future.

In ASOS: Samwell V, Aemon associates "the war for the dawn" and "the prince that was promised," which leaves open the possibility that this is an association Targaryen interpretations of prophecy has long taken for granted.

I don't think it is a stretch that Aegon had knowledge of the prophecies of "the prince that was promised," "the dragon has three heads," and "the war for the dawn," and perhaps even believed in them to some extent or another.

Whether or not he believed in or associated "the war for the dawn" etc. with a return of the mythical, long gone Others, perhaps some aspect of prophecy caused him to prioritize conquering Westeros with as little death as possible, and uniting it into one realm.

[Bael's Bastard]

7 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

On the subject at hand, the very Targaryen banner is a reference to the prophecy. It seems that the prophecy influenced Aegon's decision to conquer the seven kingdoms as well as the shape of the government to come. How much he knew and if he knew what the prophesy is another matter. 

It might be that the latter he received from Dorne persuaded him that he was not the Prince that was Promised, which he then confirmed by consulting certain texts on Dragonstone. 

I agree to some extent. I could see Aegon believing that he and his two sisters, along with their three dragons, were to fulfill the prophecies of "the prince that was promised" and "the dragon must have three heads," and I would imagine that the deaths of Rhaenys and Meraxes and failure to bring Dorne into the realm would have dealt a blow to any such belief. At some point it could have just been about paving the way to enable his descendants to fulfill these things.