Heresy 214 The Last Heretic

[Tucu]

43 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I know this was meant as a joke, but humor is funny because something about it is true.

Brandon the Breaker was the Lord of Winterfell that joined with Joramun to bring the Nights King down. A couple thoughts flitted across my mind about this. Did Brandon the Breaker break the sword, and that is why Ser Waymar Royce's sword broke as a reversal of that event? (6-7 Watch-men against 1 undead Lord Commander) And did the Nights King originally have possession of Ice? Mormont's family sword, Longclaw, might be a repeat of a Lord Commander having a family sword at the Wall.

I mentioned before the idea that the original NW was formed by a human commanding a group of white shadows in a similar way that Ned commands the shadows in his ToJ dream. I think this is the system Brandon the Breaker broke.

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Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. “No,”

Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.” As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow,

Ned had his shadows and the NK had his via shadowbinding:

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and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will.

 

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I mentioned before the idea that the original NW was formed by a human commanding a group of white shadows in a similar way that Ned commands the shadows in his ToJ dream. I think this is the system Brandon the Breaker broke.

Ned had his shadows and the NK had his via shadowbinding:

 

I like this idea! I hadn’t read this before, but it does seem to fit the text. When the first Nights Watch rode out to defeat the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, those men  seemed to materialize out of nothing. Where the heck did they come from when the Last Hero was all alone? Maybe they were all dead and then resurrected? What is dead cannot die...

[SirArthur]

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I like this idea! I hadn’t read this before, but it does seem to fit the text. When the first Nights Watch rode out to defeat the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, those men  seemed to materialize out of nothing. Where the heck did they come from when the Last Hero was all alone? Maybe they were all dead and then resurrected? What is dead cannot die...

I would agree with it as far as the first book goes. But I don't know if GRRM has gardnered it out it the meantime. The only thing that ever connects some dots is, if we assume, Coldhands is the Howland Reed of the original hero story.

[St Daga]

12 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

When the first Nights Watch rode out to defeat the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, those men  seemed to materialize out of nothing. Where the heck did they come from when the Last Hero was all alone? Maybe they were all dead and then resurrected? What is dead cannot die...

Well, when the Last Hero sought out answers, he ended up all alone, but that doesn't mean that is when the Battle of the Dawn happened. Perhaps his quest only gave him the answer on how to fight and defeat what ever was causing the Long Night.

 

And, perhaps that is our answer to why the brothers of the Night's Watch dress in black. Because initially they were clothed in a color that could hide them in the darkness, a camouflage in the dark night, which allowed them to sneak up on what ever being or force they had to face? This is not unlike the northmen who attack Asha's forces outside of Deepwood Motte, dressed in a way to disguise themselves in the forest. (I don't have my books with me currently, so I can't check the way the text specifically reads-sorry). The Night's Watch wore black for that battle, and it became their tradition, just like the words of their oath, even when they can no longer remember why they wear black or state the oath they do, it still remains a part of them.

[Tucu]

Changing subject completely. There is an interesting fragment of the spanish version of Fire&Blood detailing an attempt by Hightower/Braavosi fleet to reach the sunset sea and the unusual places they visited, creatures they faced and that might answer the question if you can reach Essos by sailing into the sunset. Good read if you don't mind using Google Translate to see what was released in the sunset sea:

https://lossietereinos.com/nuevo-fragmento-exclusivo-fuego-sangre/

[Melifeather]

Thanks for sharing Tucu! That was a very interesting and entertaining read!

There were a couple words that would not translate:

estiveños - assuming this is a descriptive word of the dark skinned people of Southoros?

stevedores

And a mistranslation of Luna de Otoño perhaps? Or is this the name of one of the ships?

I've read the line about elders going out in the cold to die before, but I have a new thought about it:

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As cupboards and granaries emptied, the famine spread throughout the country, and the elders said goodbye to their children and went into the snow to let themselves die, so that their progeny could survive. 

Do you suppose that when the elders went into the snow to die they actually became like Coldhands?

Also:

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Fue entonces cuando llegaron los escalofríos y el Desconocido recorrió el territorio. Los maestres sabían de antemano de los escalofríos. Ya los habían conocido, un siglo antes, y el curso de la epidemia había quedado plasmado en sus libros. 

It was then that the chills came and the Unknown traveled the territory. The masters knew in advance of the chills. They had already met them, a century earlier, and the course of the epidemic had been captured in their books. 

 

Is this a reference to the Others making an appearance north of the Wall?

[Tucu]

@Feather Crystal

estiveños = Summer Islanders. From estío, another word for summer in Spanish

Luna de Otoño = the name of the ship that went down

The chills is a disease transmitted by rats that hit Westeros hard at the same time as the hard winter.. This translation probably makes more sense:

Spoiler

It was then that the chills came and the Stranger traveled the territory. The masters knew already of the chills. They had already met it a century earlier and the course of the epidemic had been captured in their books. It was believed that he had arrived in Westeros from overseas, from one of the Free Cities or even from more distant lands. The localities that had ports, large or small, always suffered before and with greater virulence the onslaught of the plague. Many countrymen were convinced that the rats transmitted it. Not the gray rats endemic to King's and Antigua's Landing, large, daring, and bloodthirsty, but the smaller black rats that were swarmed in the holds of ships at anchor and descended by cables. Although the guilt of the rats never proved to the satisfaction of the Citadel, suddenly, every house of the Seven Kingdoms, from the most luxurious palace to the humblest hut, were made with a cat. Before the chills struck that winter, the kittens reached war horse prices.

About those elders going into the snow to "hunt", Coldhands-type wights is a possibility; another one I considered before is that it was a tradition derived from the Long Night: die in the cold and rise as a wight to protect the entrances to the caves (and become emergency rations as "ice preserves").

 

[St Daga]

On 11/17/2018 at 5:05 AM, St Daga said:

And, perhaps that is our answer to why the brothers of the Night's Watch dress in black. Because initially they were clothed in a color that could hide them in the darkness, a camouflage in the dark night, which allowed them to sneak up on what ever being or force they had to face? This is not unlike the northmen who attack Asha's forces outside of Deepwood Motte, dressed in a way to disguise themselves in the forest. (I don't have my books with me currently, so I can't check the way the text specifically reads-sorry). The Night's Watch wore black for that battle, and it became their tradition, just like the words of their oath, even when they can no longer remember why they wear black or state the oath they do, it still remains a part of them.

If the battle for the Dawn, or whatever is the conclusion of the Long Night was, was fought in the snow, then even in darkness, there is no way dressing in black would act as a camouflage. It seems I had forgotten winter in the last eight months, but I was reminded last night of how bright it is even at night, when snow covers the ground and even a small amount of moon light shines down.  Unless there was darkness but no snow, then maybe black works as a disguise, but that seems highly unlikely! Blasting down my own half cocked idea is exactly what I get for theorizing (or thinking I am) on 30 hours without sleep! 

 

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

About those elders going into the snow to "hunt", Coldhands-type wights is a possibility; another one I considered before is that it was a tradition derived from the Long Night: die in the cold and rise as a wight to protect the entrances to the caves (and become emergency rations as "ice preserves").

This is interesting! The idea of being "emergency rations" as you so nicely put it, does seem to fit the idea of sacrifice.  Sacrifice of oneself for the greater good! But if these men/wights were also meant to guard cave entrances and humans were in the caves, then who were they guarding the entrances from? 

[Tucu]

10 minutes ago, St Daga said:

If the battle for the Dawn, or whatever is the conclusion of the Long Night was, was fought in the snow, then even in darkness, there is no way dressing in black would act as a camouflage. It seems I had forgotten winter in the last eight months, but I was reminded last night of how bright it is even at night, when snow covers the ground and even a small amount of moon light shines down.  Unless there was darkness but no snow, then maybe black works as a disguise, but that seems highly unlikely! Blasting down my own half cocked idea is exactly what I get for theorizing (or thinking I am) on 30 hours without sleep! 

The WW camouflage is perfect for a NW :-)

11 minutes ago, St Daga said:

This is interesting! The idea of being "emergency rations" as you so nicely put it, does seem to fit the idea of sacrifice.  Sacrifice of oneself for the greater good! But if these men/wights were also meant to guard cave entrances and humans were in the caves, then who were they guarding the entrances from? 

In my headcanon, from Other men; you can only fit so many people on a cave; the mission was "save as many as you can" not save everyone.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

In my headcanon, from Other men; you can only fit so many people on a cave; the mission was "save as many as you can" not save everyone.

If they were guarding a cave the cave would have to be warded against them, otherwise what's to stop them from entering the cave and killing their own family members?

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

@Feather Crystal

estiveños = Summer Islanders. From estío, another word for summer in Spanish

Luna de Otoño = the name of the ship that went down

The chills is a disease transmitted by rats that hit Westeros hard at the same time as the hard winter.. This translation probably makes more sense:

  Reveal hidden contents

It was then that the chills came and the Stranger traveled the territory. The masters knew already of the chills. They had already met it a century earlier and the course of the epidemic had been captured in their books. It was believed that he had arrived in Westeros from overseas, from one of the Free Cities or even from more distant lands. The localities that had ports, large or small, always suffered before and with greater virulence the onslaught of the plague. Many countrymen were convinced that the rats transmitted it. Not the gray rats endemic to King's and Antigua's Landing, large, daring, and bloodthirsty, but the smaller black rats that were swarmed in the holds of ships at anchor and descended by cables. Although the guilt of the rats never proved to the satisfaction of the Citadel, suddenly, every house of the Seven Kingdoms, from the most luxurious palace to the humblest hut, were made with a cat. Before the chills struck that winter, the kittens reached war horse prices.

About those elders going into the snow to "hunt", Coldhands-type wights is a possibility; another one I considered before is that it was a tradition derived from the Long Night: die in the cold and rise as a wight to protect the entrances to the caves (and become emergency rations as "ice preserves").

 

I should have known the chills was a disease that killed (brought the Stranger), much like the pale mare.

[Tucu]

46 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If they were guarding a cave the cave would have to be warded against them, otherwise what's to stop them from entering the cave and killing their own family members?

Yes, I think we already saw this outside BR 's cave with those wights sleeping under the snow. This brings me back to the NW's oath: "the horn that wakes the sleepers".

[Melifeather]

41 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Yes, I think we already saw this outside BR 's cave with those wights sleeping under the snow. This brings me back to the NW's oath: "the horn that wakes the sleepers".

Maybe, but the wights don’t actually require horns to “wake up”...just darkness and an icy cold wind. I suspect the sleepers are something more...maybe men like Coldhands who are sleeping in crypts? Someone would have to physically remove any iron blade to let them out though. Or, there could be more greenseers. Bloodraven refers to watching through the weirwoods as a type of sleeping and dreaming. There are a lot of Children hunkered down in that cave too that seem to be sleeping. 

[Tucu]

14 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Maybe, but the wights don’t actually require horns to “wake up”...just darkness and an icy cold wind. I suspect the sleepers are something more...maybe men like Coldhands who are sleeping in crypts? Someone would have to physically remove any iron blade to let them out though. Or, there could be more greenseers. Bloodraven refers to watching through the weirwoods as a type of sleeping and dreaming. There are a lot of Children hunkered down in that cave too that seem to be sleeping. 

It is true that there seems to be other type of sleepers inside that cave, but the wights in front of the cave have been inactive for a while; they were buried in deep snow and it had not been snowing the last few days.

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The snow had stopped three days ago, but none of it had melted.

Either they detected Bran's team or someone activated them. A related question is why the CoTF didn't keep the main entrance to the cave clean of their "enemies"; they have the capability and they knew Bran was coming. Procrastination or showmanship?

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

It is true that there seems to be other type of sleepers inside that cave, but the wights in front of the cave have been inactive for a while; they were buried in deep snow and it had not been snowing the last few days.

Either they detected Bran's team or someone activated them. A related question is why the CoTF didn't keep the main entrance to the cave clean of their "enemies"; they have the capability and they knew Bran was coming. Procrastination or showmanship?

By the time they reached the cave the sun was going down and it was growing colder. The wights rose because of three things: it was getting dark, the cold wind was rising, and they can sense warmth.

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Something about the way the raven screamed sent a shiver running up Bran’s spine. I am almost a man grown, he had to remind himself. I have to be brave now.

  But the air was sharp and cold and full of fear. Even Summer was afraid. The fur on his neck was bristling. Shadows stretched against the hillside, black and hungry. All the trees were bowed and twisted by the weight of ice they carried. Some hardly looked like trees at all. Buried from root to crown in frozen snow, they huddled on the hill like giants, monstrous and misshapen creatures hunched against the icy wind.

  “They are here.” The ranger drew his longsword.

  “Where?” Meera’s voice was hushed.

  “Close. I don’t know. Somewhere.”

  The raven shrieked again. “Hodor,” whispered Hodor. He had his hands tucked up beneath his armpits. Icicles hung from the brown briar of his beard, and his mustache was a lump of frozen snot, glittering redly in the light of sunset.

  “Those wolves are close as well,” Bran warned them. “The ones that have been following us. Summer can smell them whenever we’re downwind.”

  “Wolves are the least of our woes,” said Coldhands. “We have to climb. It will be dark soon. You would do well to be inside before night comes. Your warmth will draw them.” He glanced to the west, where the light of the setting sun could be seen dimly through the trees, like the glow of a distant fire.

 

 

 

[Tucu]

10 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

By the time they reached the cave the sun was going down and it was growing colder. The wights rose because of three things: it was getting dark, the cold wind was rising, and they can sense warmth.

 

They were buried in 3 day old snow (at least). No warm being approached the cave or exited the cave during that time?

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

They were buried in 3 day old snow (at least). No warm being approached the cave or exited the cave during that time?

I'm sure it's safe to enter and exit during daylight hours, and the Children would know this.

[St Daga]

20 hours ago, Tucu said:

The WW camouflage is perfect for a NW :-)

Yes, armor to change color's depending on the surroundings and movement of the wearer! Chameleon armor!

 

21 hours ago, Tucu said:

In my headcanon, from Other men; you can only fit so many people on a cave; the mission was "save as many as you can" not save everyone.

So, lucky men inside the cave and unlucky men outside the cave? How do you suppose people get lucky enough to be in the caves?

 

I do wonder if the caves are not meant to protect only very special beings, and not the humans of the world. I still wonder about the CotF that are left. The Children have large golden eyes. That seems to make them designed to see in the darkness better than humans.  This would then have human wights (slaves, basically) protecting the Children, protecting them from invaders who want access to the cave system. Something still seems off about all the of "singers" in the cave? Were they lead there, sacrificed to the weirnet for their power, while something subtle and dark benefit's from those married to the tree's.

 

And, as we see with Bran and Co, they do make it to the caves, so the wights outside the cave were not enough to stop them. Granted, nature or the children might have helped them make it into the cave, but I can't help but feel like Bran is being lead there to be used or trapped. It just doesn't feel warm and cozy to me!

[St Daga]

17 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Maybe, but the wights don’t actually require horns to “wake up”...just darkness and an icy cold wind. I suspect the sleepers are something more...maybe men like Coldhands who are sleeping in crypts? Someone would have to physically remove any iron blade to let them out though. Or, there could be more greenseers. Bloodraven refers to watching through the weirwoods as a type of sleeping and dreaming. There are a lot of Children hunkered down in that cave too that seem to be sleeping. 

I am not sure what really does cause the wights to wake or rise. Perhaps they do hear a horn that no one else can hear? Maybe it does take an Other to be in the vicinity, or to at least link to the dead in some way to make them rise.

I do think it's likely that the "sleepers" are not wights, but tied in some way to either the Stark kings in the crypts or men buried in the barrow's or even something to do with the concept of the 79 sentinels being buried in the ice wall, facing north (I assume) with horns and spears. It seems important these men were given spears and not swords for their long wait, but I am not sure why quite yet. Better reach against the enemy, perhaps? There are so many tiny details to ponder it seems overwhelming sometimes!

[Brad Stark]

I've posted before that the sleepers are either the wierwoods or the souls of the dead inside of them.  The horn will cause the roots to move and create earthquakes.