Heresy 214 The Last Heretic

[Brad Stark]

I am reading 'Fire and Blood' a couple thoughts:

GRRM said Aegon the conqueror could have been motivated by knowing 300 years later would be a war against the Others, and united the seven kingdoms so they can stand together.  After almost 300 years of peace, just before the next Long Night, the seven kingdoms are suddenly separated and at war with each other again.  Is this really a coincidence?  Or is someone who wants the Others to win manipulating events?  We've long discussed the possibility The Mad King's mind was messed with similar to skinchanging.

Regarding the first sword named Ice, Fire and Blood says King Stark and his men surrendered their swords, so it is likely the first Ice is part of the Iron Throne.  People still have Valaryian steel weapons, which we know were made before the conquest, so we know Aegon didn't take all the swords, probably just symbolically took a few. 

Alternatively, the sword now known as Ice was Valaryian steel, so we know it was around before the conquest (although not necessarily in possession of the Starks).  GRRM said it was ceremonial, too big for actual combat, so King Stark likely left it in Winterfell.  Non-magical swords were not used for thousands of years, sharpening removes metal and combat causes chips and cracks.  So it could be as simple as the original Ice being replaced every few generations, and the Starks buying something that would last longer.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I've posted before that the sleepers are either the wierwoods or the souls of the dead inside of them.  The horn will cause the roots to move and create earthquakes.

I think that might be too difficult as I suspect all weirwoods are connected like one giant organism much like real life quaking aspen. How could individual trees move if all the roots are connected?

[Tucu]

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

So, lucky men inside the cave and unlucky men outside the cave? How do you suppose people get lucky enough to be in the caves?

We got 3 or 4 cases of people that got a place. The Last Hero seeked help from CoTF and somehow reached them; we don't know what the agreement was or even if he is related to the NW as Old Nan's tale was cut short. Brandon the Builder seeked help from the CoTF and was guided to a secret place and it seems he became a greenseer. Bran seeked help and was guided by the Reeds and Coldhands to the cave to become a greenseer.

It seems that long term allies like the Reeds get their places in exchange for services and new "special beings" like Bran and Brandon get theirs too.

Craster thought he had a deal with the cold gods; his side of the deal seems to provide boys and food in exchange for protection from the white cold.

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

I do wonder if the caves are not meant to protect only very special beings, and not the humans of the world. I still wonder about the CotF that are left. The Children have large golden eyes. That seems to make them designed to see in the darkness better than humans.  This would then have human wights (slaves, basically) protecting the Children, protecting them from invaders who want access to the cave system. Something still seems off about all the of "singers" in the cave? Were they lead there, sacrificed to the weirnet for their power, while something subtle and dark benefit's from those married to the tree's.

And, as we see with Bran and Co, they do make it to the caves, so the wights outside the cave were not enough to stop them. Granted, nature or the children might have helped them make it into the cave, but I can't help but feel like Bran is being lead there to be used or trapped. It just doesn't feel warm and cozy to me!

There are a clear nature, death and darkness themes in that cave, including the floor covered in bones. I would not look for coziness or morality there but extreme survivalism (or darwinism). We know that the trees need greenseers in some manner and both CoTF and men can provide them. Also, if the trees feed on animal life as some of us suspect we can understand why they want to keep some group of non-special but loyal men alive.

[Brad Stark]

15 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think that might be too difficult as I suspect all weirwoods are connected like one giant organism much like real life quaking aspen. How could individual trees move if all the roots are connected?

I am not suggesting they walk around like Ents.  Anywhere with wierwoods roots, they could cause earthquakes. 

[Melifeather]

I am working on deciphering Cat of the Canals AFFC chapter 34. I had shared a few months back my initial findings, but I've since uncovered quite a few surprising possibilities that have me quite excited! If you're curious you can read the first three parts:

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

[SirArthur]

13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I am working on deciphering Cat of the Canals AFFC chapter 34. I had shared a few months back my initial findings, but I've since uncovered quite a few surprising possibilities that have me quite excited! If you're curious you can read the first three parts:

Part 1

Just to comment on essosiwatch's comment on the first part about fake Daenerys in the context of Lyanna: Has there ever been a detailed analysis of Maegery's comparison with Lyanna and how Cersei thinks Margaery looks even more like her brother Loras, than she looks like Jaime.

I mean it is derp Cersei, the chances that Cersei is wrong are not exactly zero. Plus,  and I do not know if this is canon or semi-canon, the rose of house Tyrell has 5 leaves. Most people assume that Loras and Sansa are a parallel to Lyanna + x at the hand's tourney.So, would any of your analysis change, if we assume a Tyrell/Hightower involvement in the events. (that is besides Gerold Hightower and the Tyrell hosts)

 

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Just to comment on essosiwatch's comment on the first part about fake Daenerys in the context of Lyanna: Has there ever been a detailed analysis of Maegery's comparison with Lyanna and how Cersei thinks Margaery looks even more like her brother Loras, than she looks like Jaime.

I mean it is derp Cersei, the chances that Cersei is wrong are not exactly zero. Plus,  and I do not know if this is canon or semi-canon, the rose of house Tyrell has 5 leaves. Most people assume that Loras and Sansa are a parallel to Lyanna + x at the hand's tourney.So, would any of your analysis change, if we assume a Tyrell/Hightower involvement in the events. (that is besides Gerold Hightower and the Tyrell hosts)

 

essosiwatch posted his comments before I even posted my essay. I'm assuming they were his own thoughts after rereading the Cat of the Canals chapter.

I am not aware of any analysis of Margaery looking like Loras versus Cersei and Jaime.

I think it's appropriate that House Tyrell mirrors House Stark with the five "leaves". They are, after all, on opposite sides of Westeros. South versus North. White Dawn versus Black Ice. White rose versus blue rose.

Loras riding his mare in heat are Howland and Lyanna, because I believe some form of skin changing occurred to make the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

IMO Sansa mirrors Ashara, and Arya mirrors Lyanna. Sansa/Ashara is observing Loras/Howland riding mare-in-heat/Lyanna.

[SirArthur]

58 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Sansa/Ashara is observing Loras/Howland riding mare-in-heat/Lyanna.

Arya is sitting next to her, which makes the entire scene from a mirror perspective very awkward.

[Tucu]

I have been reading Fire&Blood and there a scene that reminds me of Kane in Alien (pain multiplied by a 100) and the discussion about the Pawnee Morning Star ceremony we had sometime ago. @Frey family reunion You were right, GRRM is definitely a sick bastard.

[Melifeather]

I've posted a part 4.

And now part 5.

[Melifeather]

23 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Arya is sitting next to her, which makes the entire scene from a mirror perspective very awkward.

The parallels aren't exact replicas, it's just that similar circumstances play out with different players. What the players do in the similar settings generates a different outcome.

Ashara most likely did watch the jousts of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. When Sansa was watching Loras she was sitting next to her father. I don't recall Arya even being there at that moment.

[SirArthur]

52 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The parallels aren't exact replicas, it's just that similar circumstances play out with different players. What the players do in the similar settings generates a different outcome.

Ashara most likely did watch the jousts of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. When Sansa was watching Loras she was sitting next to her father. I don't recall Arya even being there at that moment.

You are right. I had the TV adaptation in my head and reread the chapters. As far as I can tell Arya wasn't at the tourney on both days, because she was training and only Sansa was there. Even the wiki got that wrong.  

[JNR]

29 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Even the wiki got that wrong.  

Or: The wiki, since it's the wiki, got it wrong. 

[Tucu]

The Wall seems to be quite bad at stopping armies going south during harsh winters. In 134 AC:

Quote

Even in the winter town, beneath the very walls of Winterfell, the northmen fell to eating dogs and horses. Cold and hunger carried off a third of the Night’s Watch, and when thousands of wildlings walked across the frozen sea east of the Wall, hundreds more of the black brothers perished in battle.

So when the white cold comes in full strength, the wights can just walk past the Wall?

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

So when the white cold comes in full strength, the wights can just walk past the Wall?

Maybe they cannot cross salt water and that is the reason the Wall containts salt. 

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Maybe they cannot cross salt water and that is the reason the Wall containts salt. 

Sea ice contains very little salt due to the way ice crystals are formed. In any case, wouldn't wight shoes be enough protection?

[alienarea]

5 hours ago, Tucu said:

Sea ice contains very little salt due to the way ice crystals are formed. In any case, wouldn't wight shoes be enough protection?

I guess the magic inside of the walk stops the wights, because they are reanimated by magic, but does not stop the wildlings as they are living beings.

In other words: the magic inside of the wall is more importat than the height and size of the wall.

Alternatively, GRRM fucked up.

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

I guess the magic inside of the walk stops the wights, because they are reanimated by magic, but does not stop the wildlings as they are living beings.

In other words: the magic inside of the wall is more importat than the height and size of the wall.

Alternatively, GRRM fucked up.

 

I think you are right that the Wall only prevents magical beings from passing.

[Tucu]

But we are talking about the frozen sea next to The Wall. Do its powers extend beyond the coast into the sea? The Wall didn't stop the wights a few meters south inside Castle Black

[Brad Stark]

The Wall was made to stop an army as a physical barrier.  It does stop Wildlings from crossing in large groups.  GRRM has been very conservative with his use of magic so far.  It is needed to explain the Wall not falling apart and it probably blocked Coldhands (unless he lied) but I don't it completely stops magical beings. 

In FAB, the dragon cannot pass the Wall, but seems to decide not to based on free will, I don't think a magical barrier stopped it.