Heresy 214 The Last Heretic

[Melifeather]

It's interesting how they claim that first night is somehow a custom of the old gods. Who would want to support such gods? Nobel women in medieval times were treated like commodities, or rather "prostituted" by their own fathers for the gain of their House. The fathers of course wouldn't view their actions that way...they loved their daughters, but they used them just the same to make alliances and to garner support from the throne. The tradition of "first night" was perhaps a small scale version of what the King was doing to their daughters.

You may not share my belief that the titled chapters have a hidden second story...I like to refer to it as deciphering the Jabberwocky...but my interpretations are revealing some type of vigilante work being done by Lyanna during the time after the tourney at Harrenhal until she's abducted. I'm referring to the Cat of the Canals chapter, which I believe is a parallel to the Riverlands. There's a repeated theme of cats, pushing barrows, and selling seafood. Those themes can mean many things. Who are the cats, what are barrows, and what kind of seafood are we talking about?

My current thought is that King Aerys and Queen Rhaella were trying to hatch dragon eggs down in the lower levels of Maegor's Holdfast. Rhaella's many miscarriages may not have been true miscarriages, but rather excuses for the disappearances of their own children that they sacrificed hoping to hatch dragon eggs. And when they ran out of their own children they turned to bastard children. 

Kevan Lannister was involved in an abduction of nobles scheme. It's said he did that to collect debts owed to the Lannisters, but what if there was even more to it? What if King Aerys wanted noble women from the realm to birth Targaryen bastards to sacrifice? Ned said to Robert:

Quote

Ned knew he was pushing this well past the point of wisdom, yet he could not keep silent. “Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?”

The alliance of Tully, Stark, Arryn, and Baratheon - and perhaps Lannister - is listed by Ned as putting an end to the murdering of children. Lyanna's kidnapping occurred after they already agreed to an alliance, so the Rebellion wasn't about her. We haven't been privy to a backstory that details which children are being murdered - at least not explicitly made plain in the text - but, this backstory is slowly revealing itself in the titled chapters.

[Tucu]

I share the view that some named chapters are part of a secondary tale, but so far I have only linked some of them. I believe that The Ghost in Winterfell, The Sacrifice and The Watcher include hints on the nature of the WW and their function.

[Brad Stark]

FOB does include more about the right of First Night, supposedly it was a good thing to raise the son of a Hero as your own, long ago when times were harder for the First Men.

[Tucu]

9 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

FOB does include more about the right of First Night, supposedly it was a good thing to raise the son of a Hero as your own, long ago when times were harder for the First Men.

It is similar to every house trying to marry a Targ after the Conquest. They wanted access to magic and weapons. Magic blood makes kings.

[Melifeather]

19 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I share the view that some named chapters are part of a secondary tale, but so far I have only linked some of them. I believe that The Ghost in Winterfell, The Sacrifice and The Watcher include hints on the nature of the WW and their function.

I haven't gotten that far yet, so I have no idea what the underlying story is in those chapters. I do believe that some details about the Nights Watch were laid out in The Drowned Man chapter. The faith of Ironborn includes a ritual drowning and resuscitation by having a priest blow air into the drowned man's lungs. When the men of the Watch go ranging out into the Northern "sea" and then get killed. That is a parallel to drowning, because when the cold winds rise the dead rise too, harder and stronger, and what is dead can never die.

15 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

FOB does include more about the right of First Night, supposedly it was a good thing to raise the son of a Hero as your own, long ago when times were harder for the First Men.

Only the Lord of each House can claim first night. His bannermen cannot, so it's a display of power over your territory, but it's also a means of binding your bannermen to you if it produces a bastard child with the presumption that the Lord would favor one of his own.

[Frey family reunion]

57 minutes ago, Tucu said:

It is similar to every house trying to marry a Targ after the Conquest. They wanted access to magic and weapons. Magic blood makes kings.

There is some interesting info about the First Night, especially as it relates to the First Men.  My guess is there may be a magical component to the bloodlines of the Kings of the First Men.

Spoiler

“There is more to the first night than lust, Your Grace.  The practice is an ancient one, older than the Andals, older than the Faith.  It goes back to the Dawn Age, I do not doubt.  The First Men were a savage race, and like the wildlings beyond the Wall, they followed only strength.  Their lords and kings were warriors, mighty men and heroes, and they wanted their sons to be the same.  If a warlord chose to bestow his seed upon some maid on her wedding night, it was seen as ... a sort of blessing.  And if a child should come of the coupling, so much the better.  The husband could then claim the honor of raising a hero’s son as his own.”

Now in connection with this discussion, Septon Barth speaks up and reminds the council of another First Men tradition.

Spoiler

“Sire, if I may be so bold, I believe Her Grace has the right of this.  The First Men might have found some purpose in this rite, but the First Men fought with bronze swords and fed their weirwood trees with blood.  We are not those men, and it is past time we put an end to this evil”

Now combine these two nuggets of information.  The Warlord wishes to bestow a blessing on the maiden through the First Night.  The First Men also fed the weirwoods with blood.  My guess is that the Weirwoods hungered for special blood, as Melisandre puts it: “kingsblood”.  

I would assume that the Warlords of the First Men would be loathe to feed the weirwoods their own children, but if they passed on their magical bloodlines to other women via the First Night, then they could feed the weirwoods kingsblood without sacrificing their heirs.

[Melifeather]

15 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I would assume that the Warlords of the First Men would be loathe to feed the weirwoods their own children, but if they passed on their magical bloodlines to other women via the First Night, then they could feed the weirwoods kingsblood without sacrificing their heirs.

That's a pretty selfish motivation. Is it truly a sacrifice to offer the blood of a bastard then? It's like the parable in the Bible about the rich man and the poor woman and the amounts they gave to the church. The rich man gave a lot monetarily, but was it a sacrifice for him to do so? Whereas the poor woman gave nearly all she had - a true sacrifice. This is why the Bible also says that it would be easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than to gain entrance into the kingdom of heaven. So circling back to the weirwoods - would the old gods care if the king's blood they received was a true sacrifice?

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

That's a pretty selfish motivation. Is it truly a sacrifice to sacrifice a bastard then? It's like the parable in the Bible about the rich man and the poor woman and the amounts they gave to the church. The rich man gave a lot monetarily, but was it a sacrifice for him to do so? Whereas the poor woman gave nearly all she had - a true sacrifice. This is why the Bible also says that it would be easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than to gain entrance into the kingdom of heaven. So circling back to the weirwoods - would the old gods care if the king's blood they received was a true sacrifice?

As long as the weirwoods were fed magical blood, would it matter from what source?  And to tie into our story, do we have a bastard with magical king’s blood, who has already been described as a Corn King?  I.e. a sacrifice?

[Melifeather]

10 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

As long as the weirwoods were fed magical blood, would it matter from what source?  And to tie into our story, do we have a bastard with magical king’s blood, who has already been described as a Corn King?  I.e. a sacrifice?

I think the source of the sacrifice does matter, and Dany is the example. She sacrificed her child and his father and successfully hatched dragon eggs. That's not to say that there's not some type of significance about Jon being a sacrificial bastard. What I am suggesting is that perhaps the reason why magic wasn't working was because bastards were used.

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's interesting how they claim that first night is somehow a custom of the old gods. Who would want to support such gods? Nobel women in medieval times were treated like commodities, or rather "prostituted" by their own fathers for the gain of their House.

It's that GRRM meme version of a thousand year medieval era again.

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

 My current thought is that King Aerys and Queen Rhaella were trying to hatch dragon eggs down in the lower levels of Maegor's Holdfast. Rhaella's many miscarriages may not have been true miscarriages, but rather excuses for the disappearances of their own children that they sacrificed hoping to hatch dragon eggs. And when they ran out of their own children they turned to bastard children. 

Well, if Lyanna really married anyone, then the right of the first Night goes to.... ?

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

The alliance of Tully, Stark, Arryn, and Baratheon - and perhaps Lannister - is listed by Ned as putting an end to the murdering of children. Lyanna's kidnapping occurred after they already agreed to an alliance, so the Rebellion wasn't about her. We haven't been privy to a backstory that details which children are being murdered - at least not explicitly made plain in the text - but, this backstory is slowly revealing itself in the titled chapters.

We no nothing about any dead children. Only about Ashara's child. However we have a lot of children been born during the time of the rebellion. So I'm not sure what is going on, there is certainly no child death above the Lord Protectorlings.

The only family with birth problems is house Whent.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I haven't gotten that far yet, so I have no idea what the underlying story is in those chapters. I do believe that some details about the Nights Watch were laid out in The Drowned Man chapter. The faith of Ironborn includes a ritual drowning and resuscitation by having a priest blow air into the drowned man's lungs. When the men of the Watch go ranging out into the Northern "sea" and then get killed. That is a parallel to drowning, because when the cold winds rise the dead rise too, harder and stronger, and what is dead can never die.

In broad strokes:

-The Ghost in Winterfell: references a captive and truly broken man sincerely begging the Old Gods for a chance to have a worthy ending and them responding

Quote

“Please.” He fell to his knees. “A sword, that’s all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek.” Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm.

-The Sacrifice: gives as the background of the desperation during the early Long Night. Snows makes moving almost impossible, foods runs out (even fish and work animals), hunger spreads and cannibalism makes its appearance. The tale links to The Ghost in Winterfell with the arrival at the end of The Sacrifice (Theon again); at this point he looks like the old men that give their life for their families:

Quote

The old man … no one would ever think him comely. She had seen scarecrows with more flesh. His face was a skull with skin, his hair bone-white and filthy. And he stank. Just the sight of him filled Asha with revulsion.

-The Watcher: tells us of the functions of the watchers (WW). They are not players but servants and protectors; they do not judge their leaders.

Quote

“That is not for me to say, my prince.” Serve. Protect. Obey. Simple vows for simple men. That was all he knew.

 

[Tucu]

41 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

There is some interesting info about the First Night, especially as it relates to the First Men.  My guess is there may be a magical component to the bloodlines of the Kings of the First Men.

  Reveal hidden contents

“There is more to the first night than lust, Your Grace.  The practice is an ancient one, older than the Andals, older than the Faith.  It goes back to the Dawn Age, I do not doubt.  The First Men were a savage race, and like the wildlings beyond the Wall, they followed only strength.  Their lords and kings were warriors, mighty men and heroes, and they wanted their sons to be the same.  If a warlord chose to bestow his seed upon some maid on her wedding night, it was seen as ... a sort of blessing.  And if a child should come of the coupling, so much the better.  The husband could then claim the honor of raising a hero’s son as his own.”

Now in connection with this discussion, Septon Barth speaks up and reminds the council of another First Men tradition.

  Reveal hidden contents

“Sire, if I may be so bold, I believe Her Grace has the right of this.  The First Men might have found some purpose in this rite, but the First Men fought with bronze swords and fed their weirwood trees with blood.  We are not those men, and it is past time we put an end to this evil”

Now combine these two nuggets of information.  The Warlord wishes to bestow a blessing on the maiden through the First Night.  The First Men also fed the weirwoods with blood.  My guess is that the Weirwoods hungered for special blood, as Melisandre puts it: “kingsblood”.  

I would assume that the Warlords of the First Men would be loathe to feed the weirwoods their own children, but if they passed on their magical bloodlines to other women via the First Night, then they could feed the weirwoods kingsblood without sacrificing their heirs.

I like that and I would compare it to the dragonseeds during The Dance. The "good" ones become dragonriders (heroes) and the "poor" ones become food. Dozens of dragonseeds were sacrificed to get just a few dragonriders.

[Frey family reunion]

22 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think the source of the sacrifice does matter, and Dany is the example. She sacrificed her child and his father and successfully hatched dragon eggs. That's not to say that there's not some type of significance about Jon being a sacrificial bastard. What I am suggesting is that perhaps the reason why magic wasn't working was because bastards were used.

If we’re purely talking about a hunger for a magical bloodline, upon further reflection, it could very well matter.  After all, assuming the common woman who is bestowed the “blessing” does not possess King’s blood herself, the sacrifice could very well be “diluted”.    While the King’s legitimate child would very likely possess king’s blood from both sides, assuming that the King had married a lady in one of the other major households which probably through previous marriages contain their own bit of King’s blood.

And also towards your point, it’s interesting that Craster is so loathed to be considered a bastard, and considers his conceiving children with his daughter, as a marriage.  In other words, according to Craster, none of his sacrifices to the Cold Gods are bastards.

[JNR]

21 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

As starved as I was for new Asoiaf material, I am disappointed.

Sorry to hear it, but not too surprised.

We can conceive of Fire and Blood (plus all the other maester stuff he's turned out since 2011) as the huge bowl of ice cream GRRM ate to console himself about the sad estrangement of his relationship with ASOIAF.

I understand he's off in a literal cabin in the mountains trying to repair that relationship.  Hope it works out for them.

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

If we’re purely talking about a hunger for a magical bloodline, upon further reflection, it could very well matter.  After all, assuming the common woman who is bestowed the “blessing” does not possess King’s blood herself, the sacrifice could very well be “diluted”.    While the King’s legitimate child would very likely possess king’s blood from both sides, assuming that the King had married a lady in one of the other major households which probably through previous marriages contain their own bit of King’s blood.

And also towards your point, it’s interesting that Craster is so loathed to be considered a bastard, and considers his conceiving children with his daughter, as a marriage.  In other words, according to Craster, none of his sacrifices to the Cold Gods are bastards.

I do believe GRRM is trying to make a statement about fathers and daughters with regards to Craster's example, but his statement is not yet clear to me. As you've pointed out, Craster himself is a bastard, but by marrying his daughters any of the sons conceived are legitimate. Thus his sacrifices are not bastards. I think this is a significant observation.

However, incest is not accepted by the old gods - at least I don't think it is, so why is he marrying his daughters rather than using them to make alliances (prostituting) with other wildings? Marrying his daughters prevents other wildlings from "stealing" them for marriage, which is the preferred wildling way...the wildlings too, abstain from making alliances by marrying off their daughters - rather the decision is left to the daughter. She accepts being stolen by not slitting her prospective bridegroom's throat. Are we to conclude that Craster's daughters willingly submit to being married to their father? There are, after all, many more of them, and it should be easy for them to slit his throat. But don't they also claim that Craster is protecting them?

[Frey family reunion]

On 11/29/2018 at 2:57 PM, Brad Stark said:

The most relevant new information is Alyssane's chapter which was released and the SSM which said Aegon might have known about a threat North of the Wall which motivated him to unite Westerous (this is not in FAB, just GRRM talking about FAB).  Both of these are public. 

As starved as I was for new Asoiaf material, I am disappointed.  Go through the other books, including the World book, and write down everything about the Targaryens before 150AC.  You have 90% of FAB, the rest being mostly window dressing. 

That was my first impression as well.

It did debunk one of my favorite theories, however.  Namely that Queen Alysanne’s lengthy stay up North, separate from her husband, would have allowed her to have conceived and given birth to a bastard child, left in the care of the Mountain clans.  Who’s descendant perhaps was Arya Flint who then married into House Stark, and the grandmother of Eddard and his siblings.  

According to F&B, Alysanne was only separate from her husband for about 6 months, which put a kibosh on her conceiving and giving birth to a secret bastard while she was up North.  Plus, there isn’t a whif of any affair she could have had prior to her journey up North.

But when one door closes, another opens.

I think there may be a way that a Targaryen bloodline could have been introduced through House Stark, from another “Targaryen”’s journey up north (although technically a Velaryon, or perhaps a Strong).

We learn that Jacaerys Velaryon, the first born son of Queen Rhaenyra, rode his dragon, Vermax up to Winterfell to gain an alliance with Cregan Stark to gain their support in the Dance of Dragons.

As a result of this, the Pact of Ice and Fire was formed, where Jacaerys promised to marry his first born daughter to Cregan Stark’s son, Rickon.   Which when you think of it, is a pretty significant occurence.  After all, Jacaerys was the first born son of Queen Rhaenyra and assuming that Queen Rhaenyra wins of the Dance of Dragons, Jacaerys is then in line to the Iron Throne.  So a marriage pact with Jacaerys first born daughter is pretty significant, especially with the Targaryen’s practice of marrying siblings together when possible.  Also Cregan’s military support is probably the least significant alliance for the Targaryens because of the North’s remoteness from the action in the South.  This is compounded due to the fact that Cregan cannot march until the North has adequately prepared for the upcoming winter.

The Fool, Mushroom, provides an additional story concerning Jacaerys trip up North.  According to Mushroom, Jacaerys becomes smitten with Cregan’s bastard half-sister Sara Snow and claims her maidenhead.  In Mushroom’s tale Jacaerys marries Sara Snow in front of a heart tree in Winterfell.  The author of F&B discounts the marriage out of hand, but doesn’t completely discount the possibility of a “dalliance” between the two.  (Then interestingly enough, the tale then proceeds to discount another one of Mushroom’s tales, that Vermax left a clutch of dragon eggs in Winterfell).

We also learn that Cregan Stark’s first wife was a Norrey girl, Arra Norrey, who was a childhood friend of his.  

Now, taking all of this info together, let me paint a possibility left unsaid in the F&B book.  

If Cregan Stark had a bastard half-sister, and a female childhood friend who was a Norrey, there seems to be a decent possibility that there might be a friendship between Sara Snow and Arra Norrey.  

Now if Jacaerys did take this girl’s maidenhead, it’s also possible that he got her pregnant, aka he left a Dragon seed up North.

This might explain why Cregan had so much leverage to form the Pact of Ice and Fire.  Jacaerys did not make amends by marrying Sara Snow, he made amends by agreeing to marry his first born daughter to Cregan Stark.  In other words, Cregan had Jacaerys over a barrel.

Now if Sara Snow was pregnant with Jacaerys’ child (in a way a dragon egg was left in Winterfell), and Sara Snow and her half brother Lord Cregan have a close relationship with the Norreys, Cregan’s in-laws, then it seems fairly reasonable that the Cregan could arrange a marriage of Sara Snow with a Norrey, where her child would be raised as a Norrey, amongst the mountain clan.  Then a couple of generations later, we have Arya Flint, perhaps a descendant of Sara “Snow” Norrey and Jacaerys Velaryon, who marries back into House Stark

[Brad Stark]

I've often wondered if all the POV characters were descended from Aegon the conqueror. 

[alienarea]

I have been frustrated with the story since ADwD, but it is getting worse lately.

The previewed Mercy chapter from TWoW is too close to child pornography for my taste, and from what we know the story goes nowhere.

And I'm really scared that we have invested a lot of time and effort in this thread for analysing a story which may turn out to be another hidden prince saves the world tale. Yawn.

That being said, I'm confident that the Others need to pass the wall for the conclusion. I wonder whether they were initially created jointly by the CotF and the First Men to seal their pact, as a kind of doomsday machine that would get triggered in case one of the parties violates the pact. 

When the Others appeared the last time they got triggered by the arrival of the Andals, and the last hero convinced the CotF that the Andals are not the First Men, and the CotF helped the last hero (First Men) to stop the Others.

In this line of thinking the wall was build to stop the Others, basically fence them in, and the wildlings would be First Men.

Now, what triggered the Others this time? I'm not sure about details, but convinced it ties into Summerhall and Rhaegar and Lyanna. And maybe Jon SNOW has to sacrifice himself (not necessarily dying) and becomes the new leader of the Others, leading them back into the LoAW?

 

[JNR]

16 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I've often wondered if all the POV characters were descended from Aegon the conqueror. 

Including the ones from the prologues?

On 11/30/2018 at 3:17 PM, Frey family reunion said:

According to Mushroom, Jacaerys becomes smitten with Cregan’s bastard half-sister Sara Snow and claims her maidenhead.  In Mushroom’s tale Jacaerys marries Sara Snow in front of a heart tree in Winterfell.

Given GRRM's public dismissal of Mushroom's accuracy in the past, this actually reads to me like GRRM trolling the audience over its imaginary RLJ scenarios (as believed in such detail, by so many, with so little reason for belief). 

The money quote would undoubtedly be:

Quote

The narrative unreliability is reminiscent of Westeros’s first tell-all author, the court jester Mushroom, who claims intimate knowledge of various Targaryen bedroom secrets. “And he may be making up a lot of this shit,” Martin said.

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

I'm really scared that we have invested a lot of time and effort in this thread for analysing a story which may turn out to be another hidden prince saves the world tale.

Could be, but don't forget:

Quote

There are a lot of expectations, mainly in the fantasy genre, which you have the hero and he is the chosen one, and he is always protected by his destiny. I didn’t want it for my books.

-- GRRM

I think he's telling the truth, and that's quite a blunt and dismissive quote. 

[Janneyc1]

Hey Guys, Sorry, took a couple weeks off due to craziness of the holidays. I had an idea pertaining to the Warding that we see at the Wall and at Storms End. 

One of the most commonly known SSM is the description of the Walkers "Think the Sidhe made of Ice". I think that a mistake that gets made is that the description is just their physical traits. I think it extends farther than that. The supernatural elements of our world make a huge deal about being invited inside the hearth and home. 

In this case, I think that Magical beings (Possibly including the CotF) are blocked by a ward. They can only cross once they are invited across the ward. In the case of Melisandre and the wights in the Lord Commander's tower, a mortal brought them across the ward. In the case of ASOIAF, I think that Wards can only be crossed by magical beings once they have been invited across by a mortal. Evidence of this includes the wights in the tower, Mel's shadow baby, and the huge emphasis of Guest Rights in certain parts of the country. These areas are the ones that often come into more contact with the magical realms. 

What are your thoughts on this?