Heresy 214 The Last Heretic

[Melifeather]

22 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I begin to wonder, if Ned's children, for which he raised up in rebellion, weren't all the declared "miscarriages" of Rhaella. And they really tried to hatch the prince that was promised. Only that the prince was a dragon. Rhaegar survived because he was born in Summerhall and they thought he may be the dragon. Viserys survived, because he had some gift called "waking the dragon". And Dany is the dragon.

Like Maester Aemon said. Only that Aemon got it wrong. It was not about male/female, it was about prince/dragon. And Dany is not the prince that was promised because she can wake dragons out of stone or because she fullfills the prohecy, she is the prince, because she is the dragon they tried to breed. 

I think all that talk about "remember who you are" is about that. About being the dragon. I just don't know where the three heads of the dragon belong. Is this about Dany's three treasons ?

 

I think Robb, Sansa, Bran, Arya, and Rickon are safety the children of Ned and Catelyn. All but Arya are said to have the red hair of the Tullys, and Arya looks like a Stark. There's no reason to believe they are Rhaella and Aerys children. Those children are dead. Either Rhaella actually miscarried or they used them in experiments trying to hatch dragons. I think Viserys escaped the experiments, because a king would want an heir and a spare. Aerys sent pregnant Rhaella to birth on Dragonstone. Did he send her there for safekeeping or were there ulterior motives to be born amongst the salt spray in the air and the smoldering brimstone?

Delving into the Cat of the Canals chapter I stumbled upon, perhaps, an inspiration for the glass candles to the DC Comics hero the Green Lantern. Very briefly, the origin of the Green Lantern is thus: After a railway crash, a railroad engineer named Alan Scott came into possession of a magic lantern (glass candle?) that spoke to him and said it would bring power. Thousands of years ago a mystical “green flame” meteor fell to Earth in ancient China. The voice of the flame prophesied that it would act three times: 1) once to bring death (a lamp=maker named Luke crafted the green metal of the meteor into a lame), 2) once to bring life (the lamp came into possession of a mental institution patient which restored him to sanity), and 3) once to bring power (which is when Alan Scott received it.) Now compare that to Quaithe's prophecy for Dany:

Three heads has the dragon
Three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . . 
Three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . . 
Three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

Dany's vision in the House of the Undying:

Quote

  The fifth room, finally, shows a man very much alike her brother Viserys, except that he is taller and has eyes of dark indigo rather than lilac. He is speaking to a woman who is nursing a newborn babe, telling her that the child's name should be Aegon and saying that "What better name for a king?". The woman asks him if he will make a song for the child, and he replies that he has a song and that "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.". He appears to look at Dany then, as if seeing her, and then he adds that "There must be one more," and "The dragon has three heads."

I think its evident that Rhaegar was trying to figure out how to work the prophecy of the prince that was promised. He thought the ritual required a three-headed dragon like Aegon and his sister-wives to bring about the prince that was promised. So who was he including in the three heads? Himself and Aegon?

Aegon I and his wives rode Balerion, Vhagar, and Meraxe. So that's three. Meraxe later dies at Hellholt, but then Aegon successfully hatched six more dragons on Dragonstone, including Quicksilver. That leaves eight.

Aegon's son, Aenys was able to hatch two more, bringing the total to ten, but then Quicksilver dies. Now we're down to nine.

By the year 129 AC, Rhaeyra and Aegon II had twenty living dragons, so obviously from 38 AC to 129 AC eleven more dragons were hatched. he largest and oldest dragons were Vhagar, Vermithor, Silverwing, Dreamfyre, Meleys, Caraxes, and Syrax. Younger dragons still large enough to be ridden to war were Seasmoke, Sunfyre, Tessarion, Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes, and Moondancer. Stormcloud, Morghul, and Shrykos were hatchlings not yet big enough to ride. There were three "wild" dragons to complete the twenty:  Grey Ghost, Sheepstealer, and the Cannibal. By this time Balerion was dead and as such is not counted among this twenty.

By the end of the Dance in 131 AC, only four dragons remained alive: Sheepstealer, the Cannibal, and Silverwing, who had been born years before the war, and the dragon Morning, which had hatched during the war.

The last dragon hatched sometime during the reign of King Aegon III (131 AC to 157 AC), who was called the Dragonbane. Dragonbane was a stunted, sick and misshapen thing, and she died young in 153 AC. She had been a green female, small with withered wings. She laid a clutch of five eggs, which never hatched.

In the 160 years or so since Dragonbane died, the Targaryens were unsuccessful at hatching dragons. It's been about 54-55 years since Aegon V tried at Summerhal. At that time did Aegon V consider Aerys and Rhaella part of his three heads? 

Were Dany's dragon eggs three of Dragonbane's five, or were they various eggs in Targaryen possession? Euron claims he had an egg, but threw it overboard.

[Brad Stark]

45 minutes ago, JNR said:

Yes, I agree.  These are murky matters (by GRRM's design).

What's not murky is that the Targs took none of the obvious steps we would expect them to take, if it were seriously believed by the founder of the dynasty, and by his successors, that a Long Night would occur in three hundred years. 

In all that time, they didn't create any public policy at all designed to defend Westeros against Others and wights.  Instead, they let the Watch shrink by about 90%.

Yes, and in fact, there have been reports here and there that he intends to "play with reader expectations" that emerge from the assumption the show and books are the same.

Whether "playing with reader expectations" -- if it happens -- rises to the level of trolling will be up to us to decide.

The contradiction between Aegon invading to stop the Others and the decline of the watch is interesting.

I would argue this is in favor of Aegon knowing the timing.  If you know you have a war in 300 years, you build alliances, economy and infrastructure, you do not recruit soldiers to waste their lives waiting for something after their lifetimes. 

The obvious possibility is Aegon knew nothing about the Others and GRRM is just jerking us around.  But we do have the Barth quote. 

We also have the possibility Aegon knew other specifics.  If he knew a united Westerous and his descendent as a hero to save everyone were the keys to victory, the Watch is less important.

It is also possible that Aegon knew and cared, but future Targaryens did not. We don't know Aegon's motivation, but he does not seem to be selfish. The same cannot be said of most of his descendants.  

We don't have any evidence Aegon supported the Watch, but we have no evidence it declined during his rule either.  It is unusual how the Wall is omitted from FAB during Aegon's time.  Every other major population and fighting force he either tried to conquer or succeeded.  But an army of thousands is completely ignored and left alone.  If he had no knowledge of the Others or Watch or anything, he would have treated this the same as any other army. 

 

[Brad Stark]

15 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think Robb, Sansa, Bran, Arya, and Rickon are safety the children of Ned and Catelyn. All but Arya are said to have the red hair of the Tullys, and Arya looks like a Stark. There's no reason to believe they are Rhaella and Aerys children. Those children are dead. Either Rhaella actually miscarried or they used them in experiments trying to hatch dragons. I think Viserys escaped the experiments, because a king would want an heir and a spare. Aerys sent pregnant Rhaella to birth on Dragonstone. Did he send her there for safekeeping or were there ulterior motives to be born amongst the salt spray in the air and the smoldering brimstone?

Delving into the Cat of the Canals chapter I stumbled upon, perhaps, an inspiration for the glass candles to the DC Comics hero the Green Lantern. Very briefly, the origin of the Green Lantern is thus: After a railway crash, a railroad engineer named Alan Scott came into possession of a magic lantern (glass candle?) that spoke to him and said it would bring power. Thousands of years ago a mystical “green flame” meteor fell to Earth in ancient China. The voice of the flame prophesied that it would act three times: 1) once to bring death (a lamp=maker named Luke crafted the green metal of the meteor into a lame), 2) once to bring life (the lamp came into possession of a mental institution patient which restored him to sanity), and 3) once to bring power (which is when Alan Scott received it.) Now compare that to Quaithe's prophecy for Dany:

Three heads has the dragon
Three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . . 
Three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . . 
Three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

Dany's vision in the House of the Undying:

I think its evident that Rhaegar was trying to figure out how to work the prophecy of the prince that was promised. He thought the ritual required a three-headed dragon like Aegon and his sister-wives to bring about the prince that was promised. So who was he including in the three heads? Himself and Aegon?

Aegon I and his wives rode Balerion, Vhagar, and Meraxe. So that's three. Meraxe later dies at Hellholt, but then Aegon successfully hatched six more dragons on Dragonstone, including Quicksilver. That leaves eight.

Aegon's son, Aenys was able to hatch two more, bringing the total to ten, but then Quicksilver dies. Now we're down to nine.

By the year 129 AC, Rhaeyra and Aegon II had twenty living dragons, so obviously from 38 AC to 129 AC eleven more dragons were hatched. he largest and oldest dragons were Vhagar, Vermithor, Silverwing, Dreamfyre, Meleys, Caraxes, and Syrax. Younger dragons still large enough to be ridden to war were Seasmoke, Sunfyre, Tessarion, Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes, and Moondancer. Stormcloud, Morghul, and Shrykos were hatchlings not yet big enough to ride. There were three "wild" dragons to complete the twenty:  Grey Ghost, Sheepstealer, and the Cannibal. By this time Balerion was dead and as such is not counted among this twenty.

By the end of the Dance in 131 AC, only four dragons remained alive: Sheepstealer, the Cannibal, and Silverwing, who had been born years before the war, and the dragon Morning, which had hatched during the war.

The last dragon hatched sometime during the reign of King Aegon III (131 AC to 157 AC), who was called the Dragonbane. Dragonbane was a stunted, sick and misshapen thing, and she died young in 153 AC. She had been a green female, small with withered wings. She laid a clutch of five eggs, which never hatched.

In the 160 years or so since Dragonbane died, the Targaryens were unsuccessful at hatching dragons. It's been about 54-55 years since Aegon V tried at Summerhal. At that time did Aegon V consider Aerys and Rhaella part of his three heads? 

Were Dany's dragon eggs three of Dragonbane's five, or were they various eggs in Targaryen possession? Euron claims he had an egg, but threw it overboard.

Spoiler

FOB has 3 eggs stolen and sold to the Sealord of Braavos.   It is implied these are Dany's, but this could be a red herring. 

 

[St Daga]

On 12/3/2018 at 1:46 PM, Feather Crystal said:

You pierce a dragon's flesh and it bleeds molten lava. You pierce a white walker and they bleed water and mist. You pierce a direwolf and it just bleeds blood. The direwolf is just an animal with no special magical origin. They can procreate on their own without the help of magical intervention.

Of course, this can all come down to interpretation, but the books do say on multiple occasions that the dragons bleed blood. Not lava, not magma. Blood that his hot, sometimes described as molten, but still blood. However, I will grant your interpretation of lava in the veins of the dragons would fit the idea of a cold dragon being stone, which fit's the idea behind "waking dragons from stone". Still, while they have magic in them, I think the dragons are creatures not unlike the direwolves. Drogon's blood is once described as black, but it's still blood. Hot, for certain, but still blood. We don't really know much about the procreation of dragons, or even what it exactly takes to hatch an egg.

Direwolves might be a an animal that once freely roamed Westeros, but that is not the case at the start of the story. No one has seen a direwolf in Westeros in over 200 years, we are told, which means they have been missing longer that the dragons. And yes, the direwolves have blood in their veins, but these six direwolves that the Stark's were given certainly have a magical quality about them. Not only do they have an incredibly special bond with each of their children, almost mimicking personality, but they have special eyes. Four are golden eyed, one red eyed, one green eyed. Colors that we are told to associate with the magical children of the forest. As for molten as a description, Grey Winds eyes are described as "molten gold", Shaggy's eyes like "green fire", and Ghost's eyes like "embers", where as Summer's golden eye's "Burn". It is only the girls direwolves that I haven't yet found associated with heat, but all four of the male direwolves are. And we have no idea about procreation of the direwolves or it the mother direwolf had an unusually large litter. I think there is magic in the direwolves, but can see that people might not agree about this.

As to the Others, we have only one example of one being killed or melted. Interestingly enough, that Other kills Small Paul and Small Paul's blood seems to be smoking around the sword (perhaps this is because of the cold, but it's certainly an unusual choice of words that the author used). So when Sam kills the Other with the dragon glass blade, it appears that the Other's blood, which is apparently blue, seems to steam, but the when the Other touches the dragonglass blade, it's fingers seem to smoke. But is that really that different that what we seen with Small Paul? Granted, the Other eventually seems to melt and steam, but that makes sense, as Sam thinks it's armor and bones were made of ice. It's clearly magic in origin, but some of the same descriptions of it's death fit Small Paul's end as well. But I have always questioned if some of the magic was in the dragonglass dagger as much as, or more than the Other? 

Direwolves can be killed by ordinary weapons, and so can dragons. That doesn't mean they are not magic creatures, or natural beings with magic with in them in some ways. Even if a dragon is magic, we know that they can be wounded by regular weapons, we see it with Drogon and we hear about it with Meraxes' death in Dorne!

We don't know yet about the Other's, but the Prologue of Game hint's to me that it's possible Waymar's sword might have been able to wound the Other, if he had ever managed to land a blow. He didn't, so that speculation remains unanswered. Maybe then can only be killed by magic weapons! I don't know that we have enough information to base an answer on at this point!

[St Daga]

On 12/3/2018 at 1:59 PM, Feather Crystal said:

The dead only rise when it's dark and when the cold wind is rising. During daylight hours they act like proper corpses. The blue light doesn't "turn on" until they're active, which suggests the power to move isn't stored inside them, but more akin to skin changing. I'm not suggesting it's the same as skin changing, just that they don't move until that blue-powered light comes on. There's a logic to the sequence I've suggested upthread as to why I believe white walkers are necessary and how magic cannot pass the Wall. If a white walker was able to control a wight on the south side of the Wall, then they should be able to control any dead corpse south of the Wall, but they can't because the magic in the wind can't pass.

But the corpses we see of Othor and Jafer don't "act like proper corpses". They have blue eyes, when they didn't before, even if the eyes are not lit up. They are dead, but do not rot, and no one seems to think this is because of the cold weather. Something has already been changed in them before they are found by Ghost! I am not trying to disagree with your theory, which might very well be correct, but it seems to me that the magic needed to change Other and Jafer into a wight was performed before Jon and Co found then and brought them back to Castle Black. I do think the darkness might have been what flipped their "on switch". 

I agree there is something important in the phrasing "white cold" or "cold winds" or "ice winds" that we hear about in the story and how that connects to the Other's/White Walkers. It might be that this is what be what activates the wight's, but wind can travel long distances. Granted, if the winds are magic, then perhaps they cannot pass the wall, not even over or around it. But if it takes a White Walker on the south side of the wall to control or make Othor and Jafer rise, then the wall has not blocked an Other from passing. I think that is what you are suggesting.

[St Daga]

22 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My thought has long been, that GRRM is playing around with the idea of magical genetics.  So when you have magical bloodlines that are sought after as strongly as the Targaryen bloodline, I think it’s interesting to try and follow where these bloodlines branch off.  Since there is only limited Targaryen interaction with the folks up north, I found it intriguing that one of the few travels up north, was given such a interesting name as the Pact of Ice and Fire (even though the Pact seemingly amounted to nothing) and George continues to bring up and then debunk the idea of a dragon laying its eggs in Winterfell.  While I’ve probably just spent too much time on this forum, and others like it, I do wonder if that’s some coded language from GRRM.

You have your idea's on the magical genetics in the story, and how this could apply to the Stark line, not just the Targaryen's, correct? So, in discussion over on LH, we were discussing Jaehaerys' Doctrine of Exceptionalism. Basically it states that the Targaryen's can follow their tradition of sibling incest marriage, basically because, Jaehaerys says so, and that doesn't make the children of these marriages abominations. But, he is also basically saying this is only the case for the Targaryen's, so no other people can be involved in sibling marriage and procreation, because they are not Targaryen's, and if they did, then those children would be considered abominations. I have only been through that section once, so perhaps I am not interpreting that quite in the way it was intended. 

But if Jaehaerys understands magic blood lines, he is basically allowing his family to strengthen, while he forbids this in any other families. Say the Stark's, who might have a strong genetic component of their own that would only be strengthened if incest was allowed. So, in one fell swoop, Jaehaerys is strengthening the Targaryen's and weakening every other magic genetic line in the Seven Kingdoms. He was crafty, the Old King!

And I speculate that Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys were doing the same thing, only they didn't have a fancy name for it, nor did they get the Faith of the Seven to back the decree. But I was struck when reading about the "delight" that Visenya and Rhaenys took in arranging marriages to help unite their new realm, and how Alysanne also took "delight" in this activity. Basically, thinning the magical blood lines of every other House but their own. Ironic, of course, that Aegon only produced two sons by his wives. (If they were even his sons)

No sibling marriage for the children of The Dragon and his wives. Revenge of the Old Gods, perhaps? I used to speculate that perhaps riding dragons could make a person sterile, but that did not seem to affect Jaehaerys and Alysanne, so there was some other reason for the procreation issues of Aegon and his wives.

I can't tell if GRRM is just trolling his fan base with the name of the Pact of Ice and Fire, in response to so many people over the years attempting to explain the Song of Ice and Fire as a story between Targaryen fire and Stark ice! I think he is using Mushroom to troll the fan base a bit, so perhaps he is doing it in more ways that one. The man obviously doesn't like fan fiction, and sometimes I think he get's very frustrated with fan theories, as well!

[St Daga]

19 hours ago, JNR said:

Yes, and in fact, there have been reports here and there that he intends to "play with reader expectations" that emerge from the assumption the show and books are the same.

Whether "playing with reader expectations" -- if it happens -- rises to the level of trolling will be up to us to decide.

Yes, it's all a matter of perspective, I guess! I have not heard about the playing with reader expectations, but that doesn't surprise me at all! If enough people have figured out the path he intends to take to the conclusion of the story, and that is what has stymied his writing, then he might very well decide to toy with the fans along the way. Perhaps it's a petty type of revenge, but he is as human as the rest of us, and sometimes petty revenge is all you got to work with! And trolling!!!

[SirArthur]

18 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think Robb, Sansa, Bran, Arya, and Rickon are safety the children of Ned and Catelyn. All but Arya are said to have the red hair of the Tullys, and Arya looks like a Stark. There's no reason to believe they are Rhaella and Aerys children. Those children are dead. Either Rhaella actually miscarried or they used them in experiments trying to hatch dragons. I think Viserys escaped the experiments, because a king would want an heir and a spare. Aerys sent pregnant Rhaella to birth on Dragonstone. Did he send her there for safekeeping or were there ulterior motives to be born amongst the salt spray in the air and the smoldering brimstone?

I was first confused about this answer. I'm not talking about Ned's physical children. With Ned's children, I mean this:

"Whereas Daenerys is a fourteen-year-old girl." Ned knew he was pushing this well past the point of wisdom, yet he could not keep silent. "Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?"

 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

Of course, this can all come down to interpretation, but the books do say on multiple occasions that the dragons bleed blood. Not lava, not magma. Blood that his hot, sometimes described as molten, but still blood.

 

Quote

The hero was jerking on the sand, the bright blood pouring from the ragged stump of his shoulder. His spear remained in Drogon’s back, wobbling as the dragon beat his wings. Smoke rose from the wound.

 

Quote

 

His head turned. Smoke rose between his teeth. His blood was smoking too, where it dripped upon the ground.

 

 

Quote

 

  The dragon gave one last hiss and stretched out flat upon his belly. Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought, and so am I. Daenerys Targaryen vaulted onto the dragon’s back, seized the spear, and ripped it out. The point was half-melted, the iron red-hot, glowing.

 

 

 

The three passages above, while the word "lava" is not used, the descriptions of the blood are descriptions of lava. Blood isn't smoking hot.

 

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

Direwolves might be a an animal that once freely roamed Westeros, but that is not the case at the start of the story. No one has seen a direwolf in Westeros in over 200 years, we are told, which means they have been missing longer that the dragons. And yes, the direwolves have blood in their veins, but these six direwolves that the Stark's were given certainly have a magical quality about them. Not only do they have an incredibly special bond with each of their children, almost mimicking personality, but they have special eyes. Four are golden eyed, one red eyed, one green eyed. Colors that we are told to associate with the magical children of the forest. As for molten as a description, Grey Winds eyes are described as "molten gold", Shaggy's eyes like "green fire", and Ghost's eyes like "embers", where as Summer's golden eye's "Burn". It is only the girls direwolves that I haven't yet found associated with heat, but all four of the male direwolves are. And we have no idea about procreation of the direwolves or it the mother direwolf had an unusually large litter. I think there is magic in the direwolves, but can see that people might not agree about this.

 

There are many skin changers north of the Wall. Various animals have made bonds with humans: boars, bears and snow bears, shadow cats, goats, dogs, eagles, crows, ravens, sea lions, walruses, spotted whales, and cranes. Are they all magical creatures also? Being extinct is not an indication of magic - just that a certain group of animals has died out due to loss of habitat or over hunting.

 

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

As to the Others, we have only one example of one being killed or melted. Interestingly enough, that Other kills Small Paul and Small Paul's blood seems to be smoking around the sword (perhaps this is because of the cold, but it's certainly an unusual choice of words that the author used). So when Sam kills the Other with the dragon glass blade, it appears that the Other's blood, which is apparently blue, seems to steam, but the when the Other touches the dragonglass blade, it's fingers seem to smoke. But is that really that different that what we seen with Small Paul? Granted, the Other eventually seems to melt and steam, but that makes sense, as Sam thinks it's armor and bones were made of ice. It's clearly magic in origin, but some of the same descriptions of it's death fit Small Paul's end as well. But I have always questioned if some of the magic was in the dragonglass dagger as much as, or more than the Other? 

 

Have you never noticed your breath when it's really cold outside? The white mist looks like smoke. Small Paul's smoking wound is the heat of his body and blood steaming in the icy cold air. It's not really smoke, it's water vapor - condensed droplets of water and ice.

 

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

Direwolves can be killed by ordinary weapons, and so can dragons. That doesn't mean they are not magic creatures, or natural beings with magic with in them in some ways. Even if a dragon is magic, we know that they can be wounded by regular weapons, we see it with Drogon and we hear about it with Meraxes' death in Dorne!

We don't know yet about the Other's, but the Prologue of Game hint's to me that it's possible Waymar's sword might have been able to wound the Other, if he had ever managed to land a blow. He didn't, so that speculation remains unanswered. Maybe then can only be killed by magic weapons! I don't know that we have enough information to base an answer on at this point!

 

All three creatures can be killed - almost instantly for the white walker if obsidian is used. It's much harder to kill a dragon. Drogon had a spear shoved down into the base of his neck and lived. During the Dance of the Dragons any dragons killed were killed by other dragons. There are historical stories of dragon slayers. For example, Ser Galladon of Morne slew a dragon with an enchanted sword, Just Maid, and Serwyn of the Mirror Shield slew a dragon by piercing it's eye with a spear. It's suspected that dragons can be killed with weirwood arrows, but we have yet to read confirmation of that. Robb's Grey Wind was shot through by crossbows and then beheaded.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

But the corpses we see of Othor and Jafer don't "act like proper corpses". They have blue eyes, when they didn't before, even if the eyes are not lit up. They are dead, but do not rot, and no one seems to think this is because of the cold weather. Something has already been changed in them before they are found by Ghost! I am not trying to disagree with your theory, which might very well be correct, but it seems to me that the magic needed to change Other and Jafer into a wight was performed before Jon and Co found then and brought them back to Castle Black. I do think the darkness might have been what flipped their "on switch". 

I agree there is something important in the phrasing "white cold" or "cold winds" or "ice winds" that we hear about in the story and how that connects to the Other's/White Walkers. It might be that this is what be what activates the wight's, but wind can travel long distances. Granted, if the winds are magic, then perhaps they cannot pass the wall, not even over or around it. But if it takes a White Walker on the south side of the wall to control or make Othor and Jafer rise, then the wall has not blocked an Other from passing. I think that is what you are suggesting.

Othor and Jafer don't rot, because the temperatures are cold enough to keep their bodies frozen. Maybe their eyes turned blue because they were "touched" as you say, but they don't glow with a light until they're animated.

While a white walker cannot pass the Wall, wildlings can. All it takes is for one of them to be sacrificed in order to create a white walker south of the Wall.

 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

The man obviously doesn't like fan fiction, and sometimes I think he get's very frustrated with fan theories, as well!

While GRRM has said he doesn't like fan fiction, I disagree that he gets frustrated with fan theories. Some Pig (Pretty Pig here on Westeros) got her post on Stan Lee "liked" by George himself on Facebook.  Some Pig has written a large collection of essays comparing ASOIAF characters to Marvel characters. 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I was first confused about this answer. I'm not talking about Ned's physical children. With Ned's children, I mean this:

"Whereas Daenerys is a fourteen-year-old girl." Ned knew he was pushing this well past the point of wisdom, yet he could not keep silent. "Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?"

 

 

Yes, I agree that this passage indicates that the impetuous for rising in Rebellion had something to do with Aerys murdering children.

[Tucu]

24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Othor and Jafer don't rot, because the temperatures are cold enough to keep their bodies frozen. Maybe their eyes turned blue because they were "touched" as you say, but they don't glow with a light until they're animated.

While a white walker cannot pass the Wall, wildlings can. All it takes is for one of them to be sacrificed in order to create a white walker south of the Wall.

 

Keep and eye on Theon's sacrifice; my bet is still on him becoming the first WW south of The Wall. The gods will get him the (ice) sword he asked for. Mel used a smuggler to bypass the spells in Storm's End; the Others will use a turncloak.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Keep and eye on Theon's sacrifice; my bet is still on him becoming the first WW south of The Wall. The gods will get him the (ice) sword he asked for. Mel used a smuggler to bypass the spells in Storm's End; the Others will use a turncloak.

Quite possible, and he’d make a great Last Hero reborn, but I don’t believe the white walkers north of the Wall were created by the Children or Bloodraven.

[Brad Stark]

I am looking for an SSM related to the difference between dragons and other creatures. 

Someone asked GRRM if it was possible to skinchange a dragon.  GRRM said there are things about dragons people forgot, and while it isn't impossible, it would be different and more difficult than skinchanging a wolf or other animal. 

[Melifeather]

14 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I am looking for an SSM related to the difference between dragons and other creatures. 

Someone asked GRRM if it was possible to skinchange a dragon.  GRRM said there are things about dragons people forgot, and while it isn't impossible, it would be different and more difficult than skinchanging a wolf or other animal. 

IMO, animals that can be skin-changed are more about the magical properties and abilities of the human than the choice of animal. I would list skinchangers along side dragons and white walkers as magical beings.

[Brad Stark]

I thought there was more... 

There is no history/precedent for someone warging a dragon. There is a rich history of the mythical bond between dragon and rider. There have been instances of dragons responding to their riders even from very far away (hmm) which shows it is a true and very strong bond. We will learn more about this.

[St Daga]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The three passages above, while the word "lava" is not used, the descriptions of the blood are descriptions of lava. Blood isn't smoking hot.

Well, there is no doubt that dragons have a higher internal temperature than other animals, therefore their blood is hotter. That doesn't mean it's not blood. It just means that their blood is hotter than the air temperature, which creates the impression of smoke. Now, dragons are incredibly special in the fact that they can produce flame, but I don't think this means their blood is anything other than very hot blood! The blood might change colors, like the flame does for each dragon. Of course these animals are magic, and I am not trying to say they are not. But I think blood is blood, it just varies greatly in temperature in these creatures.

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Have you never noticed your breath when it's really cold outside? The white mist looks like smoke. Small Paul's smoking wound is the heat of his body and blood steaming in the icy cold air. It's not really smoke, it's water vapor - condensed droplets of water and ice.

Sure, I get it. It means that your breath is warmer than the air temperature, or perhaps your blood or what ever else might be seeping from your body. And yes, it could appear to be smoke. But it's not really smoke! It's vapor. I agree!

When the air temperature is closer to body temperature, we don't see this. It takes an extreme difference in temperature for this to happen.  My point was that it is interesting that the same description is used for Small Paul and the Other: the word used is smoke! Same word used for Drogon's "smoking" blood, but it might be just that Drogon's blood is so much hotter than the air temperature, it gives the impression of smoke? But perhaps it's just vapor?

[JNR]

On 12/4/2018 at 10:41 AM, Brad Stark said:

I would argue this is in favor of Aegon knowing the timing.  If you know you have a war in 300 years, you build alliances, economy and infrastructure, you do not recruit soldiers to waste their lives waiting for something after their lifetimes. 

It's not just a war in Aegon's mind, if he believes a second Long Night is coming. 

It's a war against demons and wights.  These are supernatural forces with no parallel in Aegon's lifetime.  Economy and alliances and infrastructure don't seem likely to suffice. 

A vast wall of ice 700 feet high and 300 miles long might serve better.  Or dragons -- the classic Valyrian way, going back thousands of years, to crush enemies with overwhelming force in any conflict.  Or some combination. 

However, I also think that even in the canon there is a weird failure on the part of major characters to plan or act in a consistently sensible way in this area.

Jon for instance, as LC in ADWD, initially has Sam learning to be an archer, saying he might need Sam's bow one dark night on the Wall.  Good plan -- fire and obsidian arrows shot from atop the Wall could accomplish a lot against wights and Popsicles.

But then suddenly Jon changes his mind and sends Sam to the Citadel, by way of Essos... as if there were years and years to go before the demons and wights show up.   Uh, what?

So if Jon could do something as kooky as that, right after the Watch was annihilated at the Fist, it's very hard to say what Aegon would do three hundred years earlier, based on far more uncertain information, without ever having seen a wight in his life (never mind a Popsicle).

[JNR]

8 hours ago, St Daga said:

If enough people have figured out the path he intends to take to the conclusion of the story, and that is what has stymied his writing, then he might very well decide to toy with the fans along the way.

I think it's really even simpler than that. 

He is just weary of the bogus assumption the show and the books must be the same, so in writing TWOW, he is going to enjoy proving just how bogus an assumption that really has always been. 

Which doesn't mean he's changing his plans to troll the fans/  But he might drop tidbits here and there... say, in Fire and Blood... knowing the fans will interpret it to mean X (because it fits their theories or the show or both).  And really, it only means Y, a completely different thing, which was his plan all along. 

The piece you might want to read is here.  The money quote is this:

Quote

GRRM is adamant about not altering his story in reaction to the show, but has told people that TWOW will “toy with” some reader expectations that may result from watching the show.

It was Lynn S who told me about this report originally, so a hat tip goes out to her.  It's all obviously unconfirmed, but I find it quite credible as such reports go.