Heresy 214 The Last Heretic

[St Daga]

8 hours ago, JNR said:

We also get no reference to a gigantic warhammer slamming into his chest -- which we would expect Dany to notice, if the rubies are literally flying in the air, you know?

A bit difficult for her to miss.

However, I think GRRM had the current Aegon subplot in mind in the nineties, going by SSMs, which means it's quite possible he did always intend that vision to be of Aegon.   We'll find out in due course.

Yes. Good point about the hammer! 

I didn't know about hints about the Aegon/Young Griff plot! That is pretty cool, since many people argue that Aegon was invented by GRRM in response to so many people figuring out RLJ.

8 hours ago, JNR said:

And finally, we've been told that HBO is using "the true origin of the white walkers" as one reason we should watch the first prequel show, about the Long Night.

This, of course, means that the origin of the white walkers D&D gave us on GOT was...  surprise, surprise... not true.  (As I've been saying for years.)

Nice! All those dragonglass in the heart theories are going to implode!

 

[St Daga]

7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM's said the show and books would end the same way with the same person on the iron throne.  Again, can't find the interview.

I have so much doubt that there will even be an Iron Throne at the end of the story, that I wonder if GRRM said this perhaps a bit tongue-in-cheek because the answer is no one (not Arya no one, but really no one) since there is not an Iron Throne to sit on!

 

6 hours ago, alienarea said:

If there isn't an iron throne in the end it's technically correct but the stories could be different.

[Melifeather]

Have you guys read this? https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/12/game-of-thrones-george-rr-martin-last-script-the-lion-and-the-rose

[Matthew.]

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

That is pretty cool, since many people argue that Aegon was invented by GRRM in response to so many people figuring out RLJ.

Is that becoming a popular take within the fandom? If anything, I thought the issue with Aegon VI was that the revelation wasn't that unexpected--the interpretation that the "Mummer's Dragon/Cloth Dragon" from Dany's HOTU visions would eventually appear as a fake Aegon VI is one of the earliest fan theories I ever read, and the notion that the real Aegon VI didn't actually die in the Sack was floated every once in a while as well.

Either way, between that, and the people probing GRRM about whether or not Aegon was truly dead (and GRRM being evasive) at least as far back as the late 90s/early 2000s suggests the plotline was likely in mind by the time of ACOK, if not earlier.        

(Edit note:  However, it occurs to me that my perceptions of what the "fandom" expected may be highly off base, as most of the fan discussion I was reading during the wait for AFFC/ADWD was an ASOIAF thread on the SomethingAwful forums; maybe that interpretation of the 'Slayer of Lies' portion of Dany's visions was only popular there )

[St Daga]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Have you guys read this? https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/12/game-of-thrones-george-rr-martin-last-script-the-lion-and-the-rose

Really interesting read! Thanks for sharing, @Feather Crystal

The changes between what Martin had intended/suggested and what the episodes produced is quite interesting. 

I found the changes in Bran's visions the most significant of changes! Wow!

[St Daga]

4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Is that becoming a popular take within the fandom? If anything, I thought the issue with Aegon VI was that the revelation wasn't that unexpected--the interpretation that the "Mummer's Dragon/Cloth Dragon" from Dany's HOTU visions would eventually appear as a fake Aegon VI is one of the earliest fan theories I ever read, and the notion that the real Aegon VI didn't actually die in the Sack was floated every once in a while as well.

Either way, between that, and the people probing GRRM about whether or not Aegon was truly dead (and GRRM being evasive) at least as far back as the late 90s/early 2000s suggests the plotline was likely in mind by the time of ACOK, if not earlier. 

What you suggest could very well be the reason! I came to the series after the first season of the show, so I am unfamiliar with early fan discussion.

Quote

A mummer's dragon, you said. What is a mummer's dragon, pray?"

 

"A cloth dragon on poles," Dany explained. "Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight." ACOK-Daenerys V

I can see the interpretation of this being a false dragon, but also the possibility of it being a dragon that is propped up by supporters, not necessarily a false dragon, just a dragon with help. In my mind, I have always wondered what the dragon in Dany's vision looked like. What color was it? I suppose that information might too revealing. There is also the concept of Dany's that the dragon is something for the hero to fight, NOT for the hero to use or ride. As she herself associates with dragons, then does she feel like the "hero" is worrisome to herself, or that she is the hero who needs to fear another dragon? I will give GRRM credit for leaving the reader with several interpretation to ponder!

 

 

[St Daga]

5 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

On 12/6/2018 at 12:10 PM, St Daga said:

I entered a "doubt everything" and "question everything" stage well over two years ago, and I can't shake that mentality!

Why not? You have freewill, you can stop being so overly critical any time you want.

I guess I don't see it as being overly critical, and I certainly don't want to come across as critical of either GRRM or people in the fan base, but more as trying to peel back all the layers and see what might be underneath. Two of GRRM's short stories, The Way of Cross and Dragon and This Tower of Ashes were a real eye opener for me on how GRRM is able to misdirect with implication in a story, while the reality is quite different, or at least unexpected, from what was initially presented.

However, I might be completely wrong to expect that same level of misperception/misdirection in this massive story of ASOIAF. But those two short stories left me with a feeling of "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me", so perhaps I have taken to look at the story in a more guarded and doubtful way than I had previously! And I will admit that it has been hard to let that feeling go.

[SirArthur]

7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Have you guys read this? https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/12/game-of-thrones-george-rr-martin-last-script-the-lion-and-the-rose

I just did. And I think the text leaves out some aspects. Like the Lady Stoneheart decision. But that is not part of the discussed scipt.

What I find more interesting is Bran's murder conspiracy and the question if it doesn't go deeper. Although GRRM has said ASoS will answer the question and the answer we get is Joeffrey, the way, circumstances and vagueness of the books makes it questionable. Replacing Joeffrey with Littlefinger raises new questions. So in either case, neither the books nor the show have lasting answers. And the show could have had. 

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

I guess I don't see it as being overly critical, and I certainly don't want to come across as critical of either GRRM or people in the fan base, but more as trying to peel back all the layers and see what might be underneath. Two of GRRM's short stories, The Way of Cross and Dragon and This Tower of Ashes were a real eye opener for me on how GRRM is able to misdirect with implication in a story, while the reality is quite different, or at least unexpected, from what was initially presented.

However, I might be completely wrong to expect that same level of misperception/misdirection in this massive story of ASOIAF. But those two short stories left me with a feeling of "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me", so perhaps I have taken to look at the story in a more guarded and doubtful way than I had previously! And I will admit that it has been hard to let that feeling go.

In my analysis of the Cat of the Canals POV I had identified “mummers” as being all the people playing the Game of Thrones. And just to add context, “ships” are places, and “harbors” are certain actions that mummers/players do. For example, going to the Purple Harbor indicates a person that kills someone or something.

[Brad Stark]

A careful reading points to both j=r+l and Aegon being fake.  That doesn't mean both are true, but if they aren't, they are twists, which GRRM knows every story needs.  But it does mean GRRM didn't come up with Aegon to throw people off j=r+l, because if he did that, we'd have more clues pointing to Aegon being real than fake. 

My initial expectation was Aegon just looked Targaryen and would end up dragon food after gaining support.  But now I wonder if he isn't descended from Aegon the Conqueror even if he isn't who he says.  He could end up one of the heads of the dragon. 

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

What I find more interesting is Bran's murder conspiracy and the question if it doesn't go deeper. Although GRRM has said ASoS will answer the question and the answer we get is Joeffrey, the way, circumstances and vagueness of the books makes it questionable. Replacing Joeffrey with Littlefinger raises new questions. So in either case, neither the books nor the show have lasting answers. And the show could have had. 

I thought about this too. IF Joffrey is the answer, then I have certainly been overthinking it. Perhaps that means I have been overthinking A LOT of things?!?

[St Daga]

9 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

In my analysis of the Cat of the Canals POV I had identified “mummers” as being all the people playing the Game of Thrones. And just to add context, “ships” are places, and “harbors” are certain actions that mummers/players do. For example, going to the Purple Harbor indicates a person that kills someone or something.

I haven't read the part IV that you posted over on HoB&W, but I have been thinking a lot about your analysis and the inversions. As a matter of fact, I am rereading Feast right now, and when I was reading Arya I, the Sweetwater River triggered the bridge between the Twins and the Grand Canal triggered the Trident for me. The purple allusion does make sense, since Braavos is the home of the Faceless Men and Braavosi use purple to designate their ships and sails. I will have to pay a bit more attention to purple in the story! 

[St Daga]

@Feather Crystal, I know that Feast, Arya I is not a titled chapter, but I was curious what you thought about the concept of the "star of home" that we get from the Titan of Braavos? From far away, this appears to be one bright light, shining as a beacon to draw people home. As they get closer to the Titan, the light becomes two lights, instead of one. Then Arya tells us that light becomes two lights, or "two stars" and then it becomes apparent that these "stars" are beacon lights burning in the Titan's helmet. And these lights are not just to guide people home, but the Titan serves as a protector of Braavos.

Arya's initial thoughts on the Star of Home are associated with Winterfell, but she thinks Winterfell is destroyed, along with her whole family (except Jon). One bright light, becoming two bright lights, signal fires for home! Does this in any way relate to Winterfell? We get information on the Titan being made of stone and bronze (things I perhaps associate with the First Men), but that the Titan, who stands with his broken sword raised (is this a Dawn reference, or perhaps Ice, a figuratively broken sword), ready to awaken and to battle if his home is threatened. Calling people home and serving to protect!

We are never given a description for the color of the Star of Home, or the Titan's eyes, but on close up, they must appear to be red or orange, since they are beacon fires. But what does this light look like from far away? Is it red, or white or possible bluish? This time reading that part of the chapter, I was reminded of the Ice Dragon constellation. We are told that the Ice Dragon's eye (singular) is blue and it points the way north.

Pardon my flight of thoughts, but last night (while my dog was taking her sweet time outside doing her business) I was watching Orion in the sky and Sirius, the dog star, as well. Sirius is the brightest star in the night sky, and from far away, it appears bright white but on closer look, even with standard binoculars, it appears to shift colors slightly, and on closer inspection, it turns out it is a two-star system (possibly three now, I have read???) that appears to shift colors. It reminded me of the Titan, who's single eye looks bright from far away, but on closer look, it's two eyes (two fires, two stars) and they appear to be fire the closer one gets to them.

Sirius has showed up in ancient mythology before, and it's appearance in the  night sky used to signal the start of the year for ancient Egypt. It is closely associated with the constellation Orion, since it appears to chase or follow it through the sky In our story, I seem to associate our Orion constellation with the Sword of the Morning constellation, although I might be incorrect about this). So Pardon all my twisted thoughts, but I wondered if the eye of the Ice Dragon is a star like Sirius. It appears bright, whitish-blue, but on closer inspection might turn out to be more than one star/sun, and might appear to change color from blue to red at times. This all seems to remind me a bit of the "star of home" in the Titan's helmet.

So, I am getting a jumbled association between Winterfell, the Titan of Braavos, the Ice Dragon, the Sword of the Morning, and what these real world stars/constellations might stand for? Anytime I think of the SotM, I think of Dawn! Except in our story, the Ice Dragon points the way north, while it's tail points the way south; while the Sword of the Morning hangs in the south. So, does that mean these constellation/star's are not side by side in the Westeros night sky, like they might be in our own night sky? Could the Titan of Braavos represent both the Sword of the Morning, Winterfell and Dawn (or Ice)?

Any thoughts to help me clarify my jumbled idea's would be appreciated! Perhaps @PrettyPig might have some idea's on this, since she also works with the inversions in the story?

[JNR]

23 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM's said the show and books would end the same way with the same person on the iron throne.  Again, can't find the interview.

I haven't read such an interview, so if you find the link, consider posting it. 

I suspect the two projects will end the same way in the broadest, most obvious sense: the Wall will fall, the Popsicles will invade, the Seven Kingdoms will realize their peril and mostly, those south of the Wall will unify to face the mortal threat they now realize exists. 

This after all is what GRRM predicted in his summary in 1993, and I think most fantasy fans would expect it (even fans like Benioff and Weiss).

Who winds up on the Iron Throne is not one of the more interesting or important points, IMO... though I guess people who are obsessed with Targs might feel differently.

15 hours ago, St Daga said:

I didn't know about hints about the Aegon/Young Griff plot!

If you're curious, what I had in mind is here:

Quote

 

I was wondering if you could answer (or take the "fifth") one teeny little question I've been dying to ask for the past year: Are Aegon and Rhaenys, Elia's children, well and truly dead?

All I have to say is that there is absolutely no doubt that little Princess Rhaenys was dragged from beneath her father's bed and slain.

 

This is dated August 2000. 

So clearly GRRM was writing in the nineties in such a way that Aegon's true fate was uncertain... which in turn implies he always knew he could introduce Aegon in post-nineties books (and in fact, that may have been his plan all along).  So the HOTU visions could have been, and I would guess were, influenced by that design.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

If you're curious, what I had in mind is here:

Quote

 

I was wondering if you could answer (or take the "fifth") one teeny little question I've been dying to ask for the past year: Are Aegon and Rhaenys, Elia's children, well and truly dead?

All I have to say is that there is absolutely no doubt that little Princess Rhaenys was dragged from beneath her father's bed and slain.

 

This is dated August 2000. 

This is interesting. It certainly vaguely denies any answer about Aegon, while telling us with "no doubt" that Rhaenys was slain. I have seen this before, and I must say I have some tinfoil that Rhaenys did survive, so this has always deflated my nice oragami tinfoil about Rhaenys. Of course, it's Aegon we are talking about, and I would agree that GRRM has had baby Aegon's survival on his mind for a long time now. Whether Aegon turns out to be Young Griff/Aegon or some other character, it is hard to say. Honestly, as far as Young Griff goes, I have bounced back and forth like a ping pong ball about whether he is the real deal or red herring. Still can't decide!

This quote could also hint that GRRM is purposely leading us down the path of Aegon's survival, wanting us to take the bait and bite down. But what his ultimate purpose would be in this case, I really can't say.

[SirArthur]

23 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Honestly, as far as Young Griff goes, I have bounced back and forth like a ping pong ball about whether he is the real deal or red herring. Still can't decide!

I think this is one of the cases Mr. Martin will not close. Unless you are a selective Targaryen fanboy, it doesn't really matter. There are enough interpretations, if he is the real deal or not. Even if he is real, he can still be the wrong deal, as (depending how succession works) he may still not have the best claim.

This is mainly ignored in discussions in favour of our corn king. In the most extreme case (which includes dornish law), the real throne claimant "king/queen" could even be Rhaenys' ghost in the fat black tomcat Arya chases. 

The rules of succession are far too vague to even declare Aegon the real deal, even if he is Rhaegar's son. 

[JNR]

24 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Honestly, as far as Young Griff goes, I have bounced back and forth like a ping pong ball about whether he is the real deal or red herring. Still can't decide!

My guess is he's the real deal. 

I also think GRRM has already provided the means by which we're going to be convinced of that... and he'll spell out those means in the third Arianne chapter in TWOW.

25 minutes ago, St Daga said:

This quote could also hint that GRRM is purposely leading us down the path of Aegon's survival, wanting us to take the bait and bite down. But what his ultimate purpose would be in this case, I really can't say.

On this I'm not very clear, but I can make an educated guess.  We know from his 1993 summary that he always intended there to be a book called A Dance with Dragons:

Quote

The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume, A Dance with Dragons.

We also know that the historical dance of dragons involved two Targs in a struggle for control of the throne (one of whom was named Aegon, even).

So if GRRM was thinking Dany and Aegon would both show up in Westeros in this "second volume," and they would present Westeros with competing claims for the throne, I wouldn't be surprised.  And that would explain a primary purpose of Aegon.

At this point, of course, we've already read ADWD... and there was no Dothraki invasion, and no struggle between Dany and Aegon, and in fact Dany is nowhere near invading Westeros. 

But I don't think that reflects GRRM's changing plans.  I think it reflects the way he lost control of his wordcount in writing ADWD so completely, A Dance with Dragons literally didn't have his long-planned dance with dragons.

[alienarea]

3 minutes ago, JNR said:

My guess is he's the real deal. 

I also think GRRM has already provided the means by which we're going to be convinced of that... and he'll spell out those means in the third Arianne chapter in TWOW.

On this I'm not very clear, but I can make an educated guess.  We know from his 1993 summary that he always intended there to be a book called A Dance with Dragons:

We also know that the historical dance of dragons involved two Targs in a struggle for control of the throne (one of whom was named Aegon, even).

So if GRRM was thinking Dany and Aegon would both show up in Westeros in this "second volume," and they would present Westeros with competing claims for the throne, I wouldn't be surprised.  And that would explain a primary purpose of Aegon.

At this point, of course, we've already read ADWD... and there was no Dothraki invasion, and no struggle between Dany and Aegon, and in fact Dany is nowhere near invading Westeros. 

But I don't think that reflects GRRM's changing plans.  I think it reflects the way he lost control of his wordcount in writing ADWD so completely, A Dance with Dragons literally didn't have his long-planned dance with dragons.

Maybe this is another knot that slows GRRM's progress? In case he intended Aegon to be real, and have a dance with dragons between him and Daenerys, Jon being R+L would be Targaryen overkill, wouldn't it be?

In the books I see Quentyn as a setup for Dorne siding with Aegon, and Daenerys killing him. 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

@Feather Crystal, I know that Feast, Arya I is not a titled chapter, but I was curious what you thought about the concept of the "star of home" that we get from the Titan of Braavos? From far away, this appears to be one bright light, shining as a beacon to draw people home. As they get closer to the Titan, the light becomes two lights, instead of one. Then Arya tells us that light becomes two lights, or "two stars" and then it becomes apparent that these "stars" are beacon lights burning in the Titan's helmet. And these lights are not just to guide people home, but the Titan serves as a protector of Braavos.

Arya's initial thoughts on the Star of Home are associated with Winterfell, but she thinks Winterfell is destroyed, along with her whole family (except Jon). One bright light, becoming two bright lights, signal fires for home! Does this in any way relate to Winterfell? We get information on the Titan being made of stone and bronze (things I perhaps associate with the First Men), but that the Titan, who stands with his broken sword raised (is this a Dawn reference, or perhaps Ice, a figuratively broken sword), ready to awaken and to battle if his home is threatened. Calling people home and serving to protect!

We are never given a description for the color of the Star of Home, or the Titan's eyes, but on close up, they must appear to be red or orange, since they are beacon fires. But what does this light look like from far away? Is it red, or white or possible bluish? This time reading that part of the chapter, I was reminded of the Ice Dragon constellation. We are told that the Ice Dragon's eye (singular) is blue and it points the way north.

Pardon my flight of thoughts, but last night (while my dog was taking her sweet time outside doing her business) I was watching Orion in the sky and Sirius, the dog star, as well. Sirius is the brightest star in the night sky, and from far away, it appears bright white but on closer look, even with standard binoculars, it appears to shift colors slightly, and on closer inspection, it turns out it is a two-star system (possibly three now, I have read???) that appears to shift colors. It reminded me of the Titan, who's single eye looks bright from far away, but on closer look, it's two eyes (two fires, two stars) and they appear to be fire the closer one gets to them.

Sirius has showed up in ancient mythology before, and it's appearance in the  night sky used to signal the start of the year for ancient Egypt. It is closely associated with the constellation Orion, since it appears to chase or follow it through the sky In our story, I seem to associate our Orion constellation with the Sword of the Morning constellation, although I might be incorrect about this). So Pardon all my twisted thoughts, but I wondered if the eye of the Ice Dragon is a star like Sirius. It appears bright, whitish-blue, but on closer inspection might turn out to be more than one star/sun, and might appear to change color from blue to red at times. This all seems to remind me a bit of the "star of home" in the Titan's helmet.

So, I am getting a jumbled association between Winterfell, the Titan of Braavos, the Ice Dragon, the Sword of the Morning, and what these real world stars/constellations might stand for? Anytime I think of the SotM, I think of Dawn! Except in our story, the Ice Dragon points the way north, while it's tail points the way south; while the Sword of the Morning hangs in the south. So, does that mean these constellation/star's are not side by side in the Westeros night sky, like they might be in our own night sky? Could the Titan of Braavos represent both the Sword of the Morning, Winterfell and Dawn (or Ice)?

Any thoughts to help me clarify my jumbled idea's would be appreciated! Perhaps @PrettyPig might have some idea's on this, since she also works with the inversions in the story?

I find it really interest that you associated the Titan of Braavos with Winterfell, er rather that Arya does, because I’ve identified the Titan as parallel to Walder Frey - the Lord of the Croosing. The passages you’ve described connect Walder as being responsible for Arya’s mother and brother’s deaths. They are the two “stars” of Winterfell.

[Matthew.]

10 hours ago, St Daga said:

I can see the interpretation of this being a false dragon, but also the possibility of it being a dragon that is propped up by supporters, not necessarily a false dragon, just a dragon with help.

Leaving aside the question of his identity, I agree with what you're saying, and would also add that Varys claims to have been apprenticed to a troupe of mummers in his youth, so the title (especially as used by Quaithe) could also be possessive-- "Mummer's Dragon" = "Varys' Dragon."

Returning to your point, we might use "cloth dragon" in this sense as not meaning that he's literally a false Targaryen, but that he's like the Targaryen version of a paper tiger; his path has been planned, cultivated, and propped up by Illyrio, Varys, and the Golden Company, and it's not clear whether or not he'll be able to deliver on his own merits. Of course, Dany also had help from Illyrio, but I think she's done more to chart her own path since Drogo's death. In that sense, she could be the "true" dragon to Aegon VI's false/"cloth" dragon, regardless of whether or not he's a true Targ.