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Heresy 214 The Last Heretic


Melifeather

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45 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

We are missing some key elements of Syrio's story.  His job is to protect the Sealord, but somehow he ends up hired by Ned in King's Landing.  Ned later regrets his decision and says pretty much anyone could train Arya.  Then we have the mystery of how a Faceless man got into the black cells, the same man who takes an interest in Syrio's protégé.

The obvious interpretation is Syrio was captured and sent to the black cells after his fight with the wooden sword.  But either way we have a lot unanswered. 

Trant is still alive right? If Arya comes home, I could see her having a chat with Trant, so we could get confirmation about Syrio's well being. I want him to be alive, if only because the current Kingsguard is ridiculously underwhelming and I think we could see him water dance on up to the throne and remove the helm of Ser Robert Stone. 

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In other trains of thought, I had an idea about the creation of beings made of Ice or Fire. If we look at where Dany's Eggs hatch, it isn't terribly far from the Valyrian peninsula. In addition, we don't see any White Walkers made South of the Wall. My prediction is that the creation of magical beings is tied to the location of their creation. IE, they could only be made within a certain radius of a local energy source which is used for their creation. Basically, I think that magic comes from Planetos having Ley Lines, which allows for magic to be used by basically anyone. 

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19 hours ago, JNR said:

I also have the impression (but am not sure) that GRRM feels he "painted himself into a bit of a corner over this," and even though it's not impossible as it is on the show, he still wishes he hadn't killed some character who's connected to it all.

Looks like the reason I was unsure is that it was never made clear if this relates to the "great twist." 

According to Diana Gabaldon, she asked about TWOW and GRRM told her:

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I’m having all kinds of trouble. Have you ever killed somebody off that you later realized that you needed?…I just painted myself into a corner.

So what's this all about?  We have no way to know.

Note to GRRM: another term for a "great twist" is "knot."  

Things like this continue to make me wish he could simply get a consultant.  Businesses that get themselves into such trouble often hire a specialist to get out of it.  But I'm not sure there exists a person in the world besides GRRM who knows enough about the canon and about his future plans for it to do this job.

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13 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

Trant is still alive right? If Arya comes home, I could see her having a chat with Trant, so we could get confirmation about Syrio's well being.

Yes, he's definitely still alive going by GRRM's implied definition of character life, so good point there.

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6 minutes ago, JNR said:

But I'm not sure there exists a person in the world besides GRRM who knows enough about the canon and about his future plans for it to do this job.

You know what the standard business answer is ? Just do it and ignore the canon anyway. I'm glad that he is not searching for that kind of help.

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28 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

You know what the standard business answer is ? Just do it and ignore the canon anyway. I'm glad that he is not searching for that kind of help.

If there's one thing I think we know beyond doubt about GRRM, it's that he absolutely never "just does it."

Instead, he spends years and years and years not doing it... during which his reputation steadily gets worse and worse.

Eventually he winds up with something like AFFC, in which he simply cuts out half the POVs, writes a book most of the fandom considers a yawn, and still doesn't come remotely close to his goal (of writing out the five-year gap).

As things stand now, he can be found wistfully saying things like this:

Quote

Eventually, I hope, you’ll all be able to enjoy the fruits of my labors.  I hope…

After seven years of effort, the best he has for his fans, as of the end of 2018, is one "eventually" and two iterations of "I hope."  So this is why I venture to suggest a consultant.

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21 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

It is evidence either Aegon survived or someone is pretending to be Aegon, the 2nd I still think is more likely. 

I honestly can't decide, but I do have some thoughts on the real baby Aegon surviving, but being a different character, so that would mean that Young Griff is a fake. He still might have dragon blood, too! Still, JonCon seems to see much of Rhaegar in Young Griff, so I can also see him being the real deal!

 

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20 hours ago, JNR said:
22 hours ago, St Daga said:

I will have to see if I can find this thread that you are referring too! Does it ever go into the oddness of Ned's death?

Here it is.  He begins the whole discussion by talking about Ned, in fact... though he doesn't nominate Ned as a candidate.

Thanks for posting the link. I did go look at @The Snowfyre Chorus's other threads as well. Some nice thoughts. This thread that you posted is interesting, because it does start with Ned, but there is really no doubt in our minds that Ned is dead, as is pretty much discussed on the comments on the thread. But I question that conclusion just a little bit, like about 2% of me has doubts. Either Ned was snuck out of KL in a way similar to Tyrion, or we might see a resurrection in Ned. There is something in the fact that his bones are wandering, not in the Stark crypts like they should be, and not warded with an iron sword, and us having the scene with Catelyn looking down on Ned's bones (missing Ice, the phallic symbol) hints at Osiris' resurrection and how he needed a new phallus and then he and Isis were able to create a new child. Cat and Ned both have unfinished thoughts on having a new child with one another. What kind of child would Stoneheart and a resurrected Ned-seeking-vengeance create? Something very fearful, I think. Of course, the time it would take to grow this child to adult hood doesn't really fit our timeline...

Also, I admit the concept of GRRM hinting at Ned and Cat having more children might just be to fool us into believing neither of them would die!  If so, it has worked pretty well on me...

As to the rest of the sort moments where GRRM is teasing us with a death, then giving us that character back, and this theory mentions the majority, I think, it really does almost make GRRM look like a hypocrite when considering the traction he gained after the shock of Ned's death, or even Robb's death. These "gotcha"  moments are one of the reasons I doubt that Jon truly will die from his stabbing at Castle Black. But part of that might be me just being stubborn and hopeful at the same time. I think we can see a much more vengeful Jon without actual death. Just near death might be enough to change him in a way that makes him less compassionate and more cold.

 

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

Instead, he spends years and years and years not doing it... during which his reputation steadily gets worse and worse.

Eventually he winds up with something like AFFC, in which he simply cuts out half the POVs, writes a book most of the fandom considers a yawn, and still doesn't come remotely close to his goal (of writing out the five-year gap).

As things stand now, he can be found wistfully saying things like this:

Quote

Eventually, I hope, you’ll all be able to enjoy the fruits of my labors.  I hope…

After seven years of effort, the best he has for his fans, as of the end of 2018, is one "eventually" and two iterations of "I hope."  So this is why I venture to suggest a consultant.

Well, this isn't very encouraging, is it? And probably very much on point! :bawl:

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On 12/9/2018 at 5:40 PM, JNR said:

You mean artistically?  I would think so, yeah. 

To be fair, GRRM does often resort to what I would consider overkill.  Snowfyre once did a whole thread on nothing but GRRM's he's-dead-oh-wait-he's-not-really-dead plot device, and came up with dozens of examples.  (I would also say he overuses the device of characters who have identity problems and whose chapter titles reflect that.)

But since I don't believe Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna, I don't think that's a problem for GRRM; I think he always knew the answer to that mystery.

As to what exactly GRRM's new problem is? That might make an interesting Heresy thread.  Any good candidate would have to:

• Be something he never thought of until recent years, yet set up well enough anyway that it would seem organic if GRRM rolled it out

• Involve multiple storylines in TWOW (as we know it to exist, anyway)

• Be cool enough that GRRM would bother going to that trouble, knowing it would delay TWOW quite a bit... even though he is already  becoming the most resented writer in F/SF history because of his delays

 

Darkstar is the Hooded Man! ;)

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47 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I honestly can't decide, but I do have some thoughts on the real baby Aegon surviving, but being a different character, so that would mean that Young Griff is a fake. He still might have dragon blood, too! Still, JonCon seems to see much of Rhaegar in Young Griff, so I can also see him being the real deal!

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.

What is really interesting in the chain of events Dany was told, is the chain. Her mother Rhaella moved (with black sails) to Dragonstone, before the battle at the Trident. In contradiction to that

"My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father's son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all." He remembered how Rossart's eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. "Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. 

I honestly do not know what is going on here. We have a third Jaime memory

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

Something is truly strange and wrong here, all three observations contradict each other. Jaime even contradicts himself. If I wouldn't know it better, I would say someone has meddled with Jaime's memory. 

Did Rhaella flee before or after the Trident ?

Did she flee in the morning or at midnight ?

Did she flee because of Aerys or because of Rhaegar's lost battle ?

Did Aerys forbid Elia to flee together with Rhaella ? At what point ? After he raped Rhaella ?

And then there is the strange fact that Viserys knows how Elia died. 

And how did Jaime know it was Rhaella, when she was cloaked ? 

 

edit: No, I think two persons fled that day: Rhaella to Dragonstone at midnight and Elia or someone else in the morning. 

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39 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Did Rhaella flee before or after the Trident ?

Did she flee in the morning or at midnight ?

Did she flee because of Aerys or because of Rhaegar's lost battle ?

Did Aerys forbid Elia to flee together with Rhaella ? At what point ? After he raped Rhaella ?

And then there is the strange fact that Viserys knows how Elia died. 

And how did Jaime know it was Rhaella, when she was cloaked ? 

 

edit: No, I think two persons fled that day: Rhaella to Dragonstone at midnight and Elia or someone else in the morning. 

So, I have never thought about this before, although I would guess it has been discussed, but what if Young Griff is the child of Rhaella and Aerys? I don't know why this would happen, but what if Dany has been told about the birth of another child, Aerys and Rhaella's baby, born at Dragonstone. Why this would happen, I can't begin to explain. Or understand why Viserys would think he had a sister and not a brother? Why there would have been the need separate Viserys and this new prince except perhaps it was done to protect both heirs. If one is found, the other might still be safe. Such as we see in F&B with young Maelor and his elder sister Jaehaera. This would make Young Griff born of the line of Aerys and Rhaella, and he is nearly a perfect prince. Could he be the PtwP? This would connect his looks to Rhaegar and Viserys, who seem to look alike to Dany, and Jon Con seems to feel like Young Griff looks like Rhaegar.

I always assumed if two women fled the Red Keep, it was Rhaella and Ashara. I really never doubted Elia's death, I guess. But I really have nothing to base that on. As to the conflicting information, if it was two women leaving the Red Keep at different times, then some of the discrepancies make sense. As to Jaime, well, I have questioned either his memory before. Has it been altered, or does he prefer to remember things differently than they occurred?

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1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.

What is really interesting in the chain of events Dany was told, is the chain. Her mother Rhaella moved (with black sails) to Dragonstone, before the battle at the Trident. In contradiction to that

"My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father's son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all." He remembered how Rossart's eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. "Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. 

I honestly do not know what is going on here. We have a third Jaime memory

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

Something is truly strange and wrong here, all three observations contradict each other. Jaime even contradicts himself. If I wouldn't know it better, I would say someone has meddled with Jaime's memory. 

Did Rhaella flee before or after the Trident ?

Did she flee in the morning or at midnight ?

Did she flee because of Aerys or because of Rhaegar's lost battle ?

Did Aerys forbid Elia to flee together with Rhaella ? At what point ? After he raped Rhaella ?

And then there is the strange fact that Viserys knows how Elia died. 

And how did Jaime know it was Rhaella, when she was cloaked ? 

 

edit: No, I think two persons fled that day: Rhaella to Dragonstone at midnight and Elia or someone else in the morning. 

I don't see a contradiction - just tricksy writing. Jaime said he saw Rhaella the morning of the day she left. He's not confirming that he saw her cloaked and hooded. He just said that she had been cloaked and hooded when she left. He also didn't personally see her injuries. That report came from her maids, which suggests that when he saw her the morning of that day, she was fine. The reason given for being cloaked and hooded was to conceal her injuries. It takes time to pack and get ready to leave, so Jaime could have seen Rhaella in the morning. Then after hearing that Rhaegar was killed, Aerys decides to send Rhaella to Dragonstone, but before she leaves he rapes her. Meanwhile her maids packed her things and helped her dressed. This means that Rhaella could have left cloaked and hooded at midnight. 

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32 minutes ago, St Daga said:

So, I have never thought about this before, although I would guess it has been discussed, but what if Young Griff is the child of Rhaella and Aerys? I don't know why this would happen, but what if Dany has been told about the birth of another child, Aerys and Rhaella's baby, born at Dragonstone. Why this would happen, I can't begin to explain. Or understand why Viserys would think he had a sister and not a brother? Why there would have been the need separate Viserys and this new prince except perhaps it was done to protect both heirs. If one is found, the other might still be safe. Such as we see in F&B with young Maelor and his elder sister Jaehaera. This would make Young Griff born of the line of Aerys and Rhaella, and he is nearly a perfect prince. Could he be the PtwP? This would connect his looks to Rhaegar and Viserys, who seem to look alike to Dany, and Jon Con seems to feel like Young Griff looks like Rhaegar.

I always assumed if two women fled the Red Keep, it was Rhaella and Ashara. I really never doubted Elia's death, I guess. But I really have nothing to base that on. As to the conflicting information, if it was two women leaving the Red Keep at different times, then some of the discrepancies make sense. As to Jaime, well, I have questioned either his memory before. Has it been altered, or does he prefer to remember things differently than they occurred?

It's been stressed in the text that Rhaegar "returned from the south". It's not unreasonable to theorize that he had taken Aegon to Dorne to be raised in the water gardens. It makes sense, if he was planning a coup, that he would want his heir to be safe. Princess Elia could have been nursing the Pisswater Prince for the many months Rhaegar w/Aegon was gone and up until she and the PP were killed.

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I don't see a contradiction - just tricksy writing. Jaime said he saw Rhaella the morning of the day she left. He's not confirming that he saw her cloaked and hooded. He just said that she had been cloaked and hooded when she left. He also didn't personally see her injuries. That report came from her maids, which suggests that when he saw her the morning of that day, she was fine. The reason given for being cloaked and hooded was to conceal her injuries. It takes time to pack and get ready to leave, so Jaime could have seen Rhaella in the morning. Then after hearing that Rhaegar was killed, Aerys decides to send Rhaella to Dragonstone, but before she leaves he rapes her. Meanwhile her maids packed her things and helped her dressed. This means that Rhaella could have left cloaked and hooded at midnight. 

Err,

so he saw her in the morning not cloaked and not hooded but didn't see the injuries, because we get that through the rumors ? So she didn't need cloak and hood to hide her injuries ?

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3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Err,

so he saw her in the morning not cloaked and not hooded but didn't see the injuries, because we get that through the rumors ? So she didn't need cloak and hood to hide her injuries ?

Jaime said: he saw Rhaella the morning of the day she left. He did not say he saw her injuries, nor did he witness the rape. He was repeating gossip. The maids said she was raped and covered in scratches, and that she left covered with a hooded cloak. 

My main point is the fact Jaime saw Rhaella the morning of the day she left doesn’t necessarily contradict the report that she sailed at midnight.

 

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8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Jaime said: he saw Rhaella the morning of the day she left. He did not say he saw her injuries, nor did he witness the rape. He was repeating gossip. The maids said she was raped and covered in scratches, and that she left covered with a hooded cloak. 

My main point is the fact Jaime saw Rhaella the morning of the day she left doesn’t necessarily contradict the report that she sailed at midnight.

 

I mean it's the chapter where Dany tells us "Rhaegar died for the woman he loved". It is fair to assume there are some errors in it, my point was more that Dany thinks Rhaella fled to Dragonstone before the battle of the Trident. Which is the contradiction to Jaime's version where Rhaella fled after the news of the defeat reached KL. 

Also Dany has this information from Viserys, the same source that tells us first Elia begged for mercy. How could he know ? 

Yet in other parts of the first Dany chapter the chain of events represents more or less what we know. 

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On 12/9/2018 at 6:33 PM, Matthew. said:

So, these are the characters whose roles that I think are the hardest to shift:

Stannis: Necessary for any twist that requires his authority over his army, possibly necessary for any twists involving Melisandre and Azor Ahai

Myrcella: Necessary for any twists that would play on the succession, or Dorne and Aegon VI using her against Cersei

Shireen: King's blood, possibly necessary for any new twists that would function as a plot against Stannis

Selyse: May be necessary for plots against Stannis; possibly necessary for any plots/conspiracies being executed by Melisandre that would require Selyse's authority, or any conspiracies that Selyse herself might plan.

Semi-Replaceable:

Mance: Tricky, as he's certainly an important character, but I think twists that broadly involve the Free Folk, Horn of Winter, or return of the Others could be shifted to other Free Folk characters; the one caveat is if Mance himself is the twist--eg, we learn something important about his parentage and bloodline.

Barristan: Perhaps the author could play off of his reputation to have him betray Dany, but I'm not sure this really rises to the level of "great twist," much less one that would have entirely thrown the book off the rails; possibly knows things about Aerys II or Rhaegar that other characters wouldn't know, but I still feel like that's a "replaceable" quality

Of the above characters you mention, I find Stannis to be the most compelling argument for GRRM's plot twist with a person that the show killed off. Except, if Stannis is whom he has the plot change for, what might that entail? Mel has always seemed pretty precise in the fact that Stannis is the true king. Perhaps she is wrong about the Azor Ahai thing, but she seems to feel strongly that Stannis is king!

Myrcella and Shireen are also great possibilities! And Mance seems very important to the plot. Heck, I think we get his name mentioned in the story before we get Ned's name. Or mention of the Starks or Winterfell! 

Mago also sticks in my head, perhaps because it seems like GRRM has grumbled about the show killing him off since season 1. We end Dance with Dany being confronted (or confronting)  the Dothraki, and Mago might be Khal of this group. Dany swore to destroy him, but perhaps the plot change could come in her using him to lead the band of warriors for her cause?

But I also wonder about how this all ties into Diana Galbaldon's comments about GRRM feeling like he killed a character that he needs now, and how he might need to write himself out of a hole. That sounds more difficult for GRRM to do within the current published story. So I wonder if the major plot change comes from a character that GRRM killed off, and the role of  important supporting cast is played by someone the show killed off!

 

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2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Rhaella stayed on Dragonstone 9-10 months before dying in childbirth. Surely news continued to flow via ravens?

The timeline has always seemed a bit odd. If Dany is born 8-9 months after conception (which she would probably need to be to be viable and survive in this medieval period), but Rhaella was on Dragonstone 9-10 months (how do we know that, actually) then this seems like a contradiction. After all, Rhaella's pregnancy should have started with the burning of Chelstead, and that must have been before the battle of the Trident. And we are told that Rhaella died giving birth to Dany, so she could not have been at Dragonstone that long. If she was pregnant before the battle of the Trident but not sent to Dragonstone until after the Trident, she would have died, at the latest, 8 months after the Trident. IF Dany really is Aerys and Rhaella's child, then she had to be conceived before Rhaella fled KL, so before the sack. Unless Dany is Rhaella's child and conceived after Rhaella fled to Dragonstone???

And if Dany is born 8-9 months/moons after Jon, then this timeline always hints that Jon was born around the time of the Trident, or perhaps even up to a month before the battle. Certainly not after the Sack of Kings Landing.

And certainly ravens could have flown to Dragonstone, but would the information that is sent by raven including Elia pleading for the life of her child. It seems like ravenry messages would be short and to the point, like Elia is dead. Rhaenys and Aegon are dead. However, as far as Viserys' knowledge goes, he might have heard or learned things from years during his exile. I am sure that details or rumors about what happened at the Sack were much talked about in the Free Cities, and Viserys could have gotten some , or much, of his information years after things happened.

 

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47 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Mago also sticks in my head, perhaps because it seems like GRRM has grumbled about the show killing him off since season 1.

Yes, he has.  IMO this is because Book Dany swore to see Mago die horribly because he orchestrated the gang-rape and murder of Eroeh (whom Dany had rescued earlier). 

I think GRRM intends to see that Book Dany keeps her promise and I would expect it in the next book, if there is a next book.

29 minutes ago, St Daga said:

The timeline has always seemed a bit odd.

I don't think it's all that complicated, really.

Aerys learns Rhaegar lost, rapes Rhaella (too much rape in these books), names Viserys his heir and ships Rhaella off to Dragonstone with Viserys.  He does the last two steps as a protective measure because he knows King's Landing is about to get extremely dangerous for Targs. 

It may also be he was hoping to impregnate Rhaella, to create another Targ and thus a new protection against the extermination of his family.  If so, it apparently worked.

Dany recalls that "nine moons" passed between the flight to Dragonstone and her birth, which suggests she was conceived when Aerys raped Rhaella.  However, since she doesn't literally remember this (obviously having been an unborn baby), it's only a tale she was told.

As to Dany listing the moonlight flight before the Trident in her memories, I don't take that to mean she thinks it happened first.  I think it just occurs to her first.  (If someone asked me what I ate on Thanksgiving, I might say "pumpkin pie and turkey" and it wouldn't mean I ate the pie first, only that I thought of eating the pie first.)

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