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Heresy 214 The Last Heretic


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9 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's true to say that Lyssa married an old man without an heir, because he didn't have any sons or daughters of his own until Robyn was born.

Jon had named heirs, but they were killed by Aerys and JonCon.

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's true to say that Lyssa married an old man without an heir, because he didn't have any sons or daughters of his own until Robyn was born.

I guess Rhaegar spent some of Elia's recovery time in bed with her!  :cool4:  oopsie! 

Oh my... Then it is no wonder she couldn't give birth to a third child because it wouldn't cost Rhaegar anything to wait two years between births of Aegon and Rhaenys, if they did maybe Elia could give birth to third head of dragon. 

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1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Sure, they have a shot because the vagueness leaves so many options that could be possible. And everyone has a shot at being correct, you just need to stumble onto the right combination.

It's not really stumbling; it's deducing.

We all know Joffrey was murdered by Olenna, right?  But how, since the text doesn't explicitly say that?  In fact, zero characters ever even suggest Olenna did it?

We know it by rational analysis.  Olenna, as Margaery's grandmother, had means, motive, and opportunity.  She interviewed Sansa to find out what sort of person Joffrey really was ("a monster").  She also touched Sansa's hair net at the feast.  We have reason to think that poison killed Joffrey, and we have the Ghost of High Heart's dream about a maid with purple serpents in her hair.  We can infer that Sansa's hair net contained the poison.  Etc.  It was Olenna.

Now, if you asked people in Westeros "Who killed Joffrey?" the most popular answer would be Tyrion.  He was tried and convicted, and various characters said he did it, and Tyrion himself was one of them! 

But all the same, all those people would be wrong, and we would be right.  We know the truth, and we know Tyrion lied to Jaime when he claimed he killed Joffrey, and we can be quite confident as to why.

So it doesn't matter that no one suggested Olenna as murderer, and the books don't spell it out, and everyone in the books thinks it was Tyrion.  We figured out Joffrey's murderer anyway, based on clues; it was a fair puzzle, well constructed, with a logical solution that a rational reader could deduce.  This is essentially how all of GRRM's puzzles work, though some are much more complicated than that one.

And this is why, in Rolling Stone, we find this passage:

Quote

GRRM: You’ve read the books?

Rolling Stone: Yes.

GRRM: Who kills Joffrey?

Rolling Stone: That killing happens early in this fourth season. The books, of course, are well past the poisoning of King Joffrey.

GRRM: In the books – and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal – the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa’s hairnet, so that if anyone did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.

I imagine GRRM was a bit disappointed the Rolling Stone guy didn't know the answer.  The Rolling Stone guy seems not to have put that much time into thinking about this stuff, and may not even have realized these books contain puzzles at all.

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1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

As someone who is not familiar with Star Wars I would have to search Aing Tii it seems :D - I am more interested in finding similarities to Quranic connections and Turkic culture and mythology in Asoiaf series since I am most familiar with my own culture - I was thinking if it was possible to connect Royce Runes and Old Turkic despite missing letters? And a Reddit thread about Mance Rayder and Isa Al Messiah was eye catching too (though it was based on Hadith and not Qur'an)

The Aing-Tii are a superior race from the Thrawn trilogy.

My username is alienarea - what do you expect? :)

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4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

And since the Sack happened approximately two weeks after the Trident, if the Worldbook is indeed correct, than the Sack happens about a year (at most) after Harrenhal.

The World book says that after Aegon was born, as winter returned with a vengeance, Rhaegar went on a long road trip in which he "ultimately" -- meaning eventually, at the end of it -- fell on Lyanna near Harrenhal.   

How much time passed in this road trip, it doesn't say.

(I think we should also look rather skeptically at the idea Rhaegar decided to go on a long road trip in the middle of a horrible winter.  I mean, really now.  Would any of us?  Why?)

Now, as to the idea the Sack happened "a year at most after Harrenhal," I think that's questionable based on the canon.  

The war itself lasted about a year.

And we know Harrenhal did not lead straight to the war, because Jaime was 15 at Harrenhal and 17 when he killed Aerys in the Sack.  There was a substantial interval of time between Harrenhal and the beginning of the War, in which (according to the World book) Rhaegar's road trip happened, and eventually Lyanna vanished, and then when Brandon found out, he rode to the Red Keep, and Aerys summoned Rickard, blah blah blah.  Weeks of that.  Finally Jon Arryn called his banners and that was the beginning of the war, which lasted about a year.

 

 

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1 hour ago, alienarea said:

The Aing-Tii are a superior race from the Thrawn trilogy.

My username is alienarea - what do you expect? :)

Oh I can see why you think they are similar - do you think we have a Luke/Leia situation in our books? I always thought Jon/Val would be a hilarious revelation considering Stannis was so firm that they marry and since he hates incest it will be ironic if Jon/Val was related :rofl:

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Jon had named heirs, but they were killed by Aerys and JonCon.

Every Lord has an heir whether they name one or not. The heir is whomever is the next closest relative. Denys was a distant cousin who married Jon Arryn's niece. Before Denys, Elbert was Jon's heir. And before Elbert was Elbert's father, Ronnel who was also Jon Arryn's younger brother. Denys did manage to father a son before he was killed, so technically Jon Arryn had an heir. To say that Jon had to marry Lyssa in order to produce an heir wouldn't be necessary since he had Denys's son. Throughout the whole line of the Arryn inheritance, Jon never had his own heir, because even though Lyssa was his third wife, he himself was childless.

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

You know what I find amusing is how the wiki pushes Aegon's birth to 282, which is impossible, because 1) Rhaegar was present at his birth on Dragonstone, and 2) King Aerys took Elia hostage in 282.

1) well, it is possible that Rhaegar stumbled upon Lyanna on his way to Dragonstone. It would fit into this stupid timeframe that the Stark brothers rode ahead to the wedding and were later to meet Rickard for the wedding in Riverrun. So it must have happened when Lyanna was also on her way to the wedding in Riverrun. This actually brings up the question where Howard was and whom he was travelling with.

It is possible that Rhaegar took Lyanna with him, because the Harrenhal memories were fresh and he wanted to discuss the situation with Aerys after Aegon was born. It is actually possible that Aegon was born while Rickard was burning.

2) We only know she was a hostage during the battle of the Trident. The real contradicting information is about her state. Is is implied that she couldn't leave her bed for half a year after Rhaenys was born and that Aegon's birth almost killed her. How was she able to travel from Dragonstone to KL then ? And it can well be possible that she couldn't flee, because she was actually unable to move. And Aerys denial was just the cover up story. 

I don't know what is going on. Something tells me, Rhaegar went to Dorne because of his wife. 

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I always thought Rhaegar left Dragonstone to meet GoHH after learning Elia can't give birth to a child so he decided to learn if there is even need of a child like he thought - or if there is a real romance between R/L he decided to act like Duncan and abdicate from his rose as crown prince - of course I could be wrong. 

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7 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Every Lord has an heir whether they name one or not. The heir is whomever is the next closest relative. Denys was a distant cousin who married Jon Arryn's niece. Before Denys, Elbert was Jon's heir. And before Elbert was Elbert's father, Ronnel who was also Jon Arryn's younger brother. Denys did manage to father a son before he was killed, so technically Jon Arryn had an heir. To say that Jon had to marry Lyssa in order to produce an heir wouldn't be necessary since he had Denys's son. Throughout the whole line of the Arryn inheritance, Jon never had his own heir, because even though Lyssa was his third wife, he himself was childless.

This is the part I don't understand. Jon's niece (who was married to Denys) should be heir and not Denys. I mean we have male succession (which we ignore with Dany, but don't mention it), but yes, you are right, the son should be the heir. 

And that would not be that bad, as his grandmother would have been the sister of Jon.

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I thought for sure Heresy 214 would last until Christmas when Black Crow comes back, but we've got a week to go, so I'm going to go open Heresy 215 where we can continue discussing the timeline of events from the attack on Elia, the tourney at Harrenhal, Robert's Rebellion, and until the Assault on Dragonstone. 

Here's the link to the new thread. See you over there.

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13 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

I always thought Rhaegar left Dragonstone to meet GoHH after learning Elia can't give birth to a child so he decided to learn if there is even need of a child like he thought - or if there is a real romance between R/L he decided to act like Duncan and abdicate from his rose as crown prince - of course I could be wrong. 

When should he do that ? Elia has to move from Harrenhal to Dragonstone, so does Rhaegar. Then he has to attend the birth. The he has to go back and abduct Lyanna because Elia cannot give another birth ? And all of this, while Rickard was coming down for the wedding between Cat and Brandon and Brandon was moving to Riverrun ? 

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1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

When should he do that ? Elia has to move from Harrenhal to Dragonstone, so does Rhaegar. Then he has to attend the birth. The he has to go back and abduct Lyanna because Elia cannot give another birth ? And all of this, while Rickard was coming down for the wedding between Cat and Brandon and Brandon was moving to Riverrun ? 

It was a guess of mine since I found story of Rhaegar and Lyanna similar to Jenny and Duncan - are we sure Aegon was born after the tourney? Maybe Rhaegar was searching for a potential mother for the third child before the tourney happened 

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1 minute ago, Jova Snow said:

It was a guess of mine since I found story of Rhaegar and Lyanna similar to Jenny and Duncan - are we sure Aegon was born after the tourney? Maybe Rhaegar was searching for a potential mother for the third child before the tourney happened 

So Elia is bound to bed for half a year after Rhaenys and almost died after Aegon. But is at Harrenhal ? How does that work ?

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39 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Every Lord has an heir whether they name one or not. The heir is whomever is the next closest relative. Denys was a distant cousin who married Jon Arryn's niece. Before Denys, Elbert was Jon's heir. And before Elbert was Elbert's father, Ronnel who was also Jon Arryn's younger brother. Denys did manage to father a son before he was killed, so technically Jon Arryn had an heir. To say that Jon had to marry Lyssa in order to produce an heir wouldn't be necessary since he had Denys's son. Throughout the whole line of the Arryn inheritance, Jon never had his own heir, because even though Lyssa was his third wife, he himself was childless.

Denys' wife and child died very soon after him. Jon had no clear heir; this is why after Robert Arryn the heir to the Vale is a squire of some minor house who was either a baby or not born by the time of the Battle of the Bells.

Edit: And Harry is two steps down the female branch:Jon->Alys Arryn>her daughter->Harry

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13 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

When should he do that ? Elia has to move from Harrenhal to Dragonstone, so does Rhaegar. Then he has to attend the birth. The he has to go back and abduct Lyanna because Elia cannot give another birth ? And all of this, while Rickard was coming doen for the wedding between Cat and Brandon and Brandon was moving to Riverrun ? 

When you lay it out like that it sounds pretty convoluted doesn't it? There's not enough time in early 282 for Rhaegar to be at Dragonstone for Aegon's birth, then find out she cannot provide any more children, and then decide to go looking for Lyanna. Aegon's birth must have occurred prior to the tourney at Harrenhal for there to be a reason and enough time to consider Lyanna as a possible source of children. Even putting Lyanna aside, there isn't enough time for Elia to give birth and nearly die, remaining bed-ridden for who knows how long before returning to Kings Landing before she'd risk running into some serious unrest in mid-282. And if the unrest was already under way when she was able to travel, then wouldn't it make better sense to remain on the relative safety of Dragonstone? These are all pretty strong arguments for Aegon's birth to have occurred prior to the tourney.

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1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

So Elia is bound to bed for half a year after Rhaenys and almost died after Aegon. But is at Harrenhal ? How does that work ?

Honestly only George knows because if Elia is pregnant with Aegon and Rhaegar at this point doesn't know she can't bear another child than I will have a hard time understanding why he crowned Lyanna - because I think KotLT could be Ned so that has no part for R/L in my mind 

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