Tucu Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 37 minutes ago, Brad Stark said: The Wall was made to stop an army as a physical barrier. It does stop Wildlings from crossing in large groups. GRRM has been very conservative with his use of magic so far. It is needed to explain the Wall not falling apart and it probably blocked Coldhands (unless he lied) but I don't it completely stops magical beings. In FAB, the dragon cannot pass the Wall, but seems to decide not to based on free will, I don't think a magical barrier stopped it. FAB tells us that in Winter thousands of wildlings crossed by walking on the sea ice east of The Wall; this is the size of an army and I can't think of a way The Wall can stop wights doing the same. Think of the Maginot Line that was bypassed first by the Germans and later by the Allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 20 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: I think you are right that the Wall only prevents magical beings from passing. We don't really know what it stops. Not wildlings so far, although not in great numbers unless they go through the wall, or under it, if tales like Gorne and Gendel are true. Does it really stop magic beings? I know it seems like ti does, but is Coldhands telling the truth? Did Orell's eagle burst into flames when it flew over the wall during the battle with Stannis and the wildlings because of the wall or because of something else? Why did Alysanne's dragon refuse to fly beyond the wall, truly? Wight have been brought through and become "activated" for lack of better way to describe them waking up. Magic didn't seem to stop anything there, although we don't know that they can cross without help, I guess. 19 hours ago, Tucu said: But we are talking about the frozen sea next to The Wall. Do its powers extend beyond the coast into the sea? Well, doesn't Cotter Pyke write to say there are dead things in the water? Doesn't that sound like wights? They might not be active currently, but the salt water doesn't seem to be destroying them. They might just be floating down the coast ready to land and activate. I am still curious about stories about ice spiders that the Other's are said to ride. If these ice spiders can climb the wall and carry the Other's over, then the wall isn't stopping the Other's from crossing either. It's all either intentionally confusing on GRRM's part, or just inconsistent. The wards on Storm's End are confusing as well. Melisandre cannot seem to get her shadow baby to where it needs to be without Davos' help, or so we are told. He sneaks her under the castle and then nothing seems to stop her shadow baby/black shadow/demon. But, if she is so special and cannot seem to die, why doesn't she just dive in the bay and float into the caves and then give birth? Well, GRRM needs a POV, and a way to relay this information to us. But did the ward on Storm's End really stop her, or was that just a power play on her part to prove to Davos she is powerful? Sometimes I wonder if the inconsistencies are just needing a POV, and/or somewhat sloppy writing! Please don't smote me from the boards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 1 hour ago, St Daga said: We don't really know what it stops. Not wildlings so far, although not in great numbers unless they go through the wall, or under it, if tales like Gorne and Gendel are true. Does it really stop magic beings? I know it seems like ti does, but is Coldhands telling the truth? Did Orell's eagle burst into flames when it flew over the wall during the battle with Stannis and the wildlings because of the wall or because of something else? Why did Alysanne's dragon refuse to fly beyond the wall, truly? Wight have been brought through and become "activated" for lack of better way to describe them waking up. Magic didn't seem to stop anything there, although we don't know that they can cross without help, I guess. Dragons are another line of defense that do not do well in Winter. Quote The snows lay deep upon the ground, a cold wind was howling from the north, and Lord Stark was in the midst of his preparations for the coming winter, yet he gave Jacaerys a warm welcome. Snow and ice and cold made Vermax ill-tempered, it is said, so the prince did not linger long amongst the northmen, but many a curious tale came out of that short sojourn. Silverwing was fine during its long visit, so it doesn't seem related to Winterfell. As a side note, FAB tells us that Dragon eggs turn to stone when they are stored in cold places. 1 hour ago, St Daga said: It's all either intentionally confusing on GRRM's part, or just inconsistent. Sometimes I wonder if the inconsistencies are just needing a POV, and/or somewhat sloppy writing! Please don't smote me from the boards! I think it is intentional and another piece in the Lies of the Ancients puzzle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted November 27, 2018 Author Share Posted November 27, 2018 I believe Coldhands when he says he cannot pass. Melisandre burned Orell's eagle, who carefully did not pass over the Wall. Or, perhaps Melisandre tried to take possession of the eagle and inadvertently forced it to cross the ward causing it to burn. Alysanne was unable to force her dragon to cross the Wall, because it's warded against magical beings. My personal theory regarding ice spiders is that they are krakens. The physicalness of the Wall is not what stops the white walkers and wights. It's the invisible ward that does. I do expect that the ward extends east and west into the water. If there are dead things in the water they are floating there unable to pass south of their own accord, but if the water currents were to carry them past, then they probably could reactivate once on the other side if there were a wight walker to do it. Othor and Jafer were basically drug across by the Nights Watch, but I think they were awakened by a white walker. There isn't any evidence to support this - yet - but since I believe the wildlings are the Others, then it's not unreasonable to think Mance or some of his men climbed over the Wall to activate Othor and Jafer - BUT - I believe they would have had to have made a white walker first on the south side of the Wall, because I also believe that white walkers are needed to bring the magical icy cold wind with them, otherwise the dead would rise south of the Wall during winter. This also may be why winter seems to be coming out of Winterfell: the ghost in Winterfell might actually be a white walker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 5 hours ago, Brad Stark said: The Wall was made to stop an army as a physical barrier. It does stop Wildlings from crossing in large groups. GRRM has been very conservative with his use of magic so far. It is needed to explain the Wall not falling apart and it probably blocked Coldhands (unless he lied) but I don't it completely stops magical beings. In FAB, the dragon cannot pass the Wall, but seems to decide not to based on free will, I don't think a magical barrier stopped it. The only white walker south of the wall we know of is ... Ghost. Jon knows Ghost belongs to the old gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, alienarea said: The only white walker south of the wall we know of is ... Ghost. Jon knows Ghost belongs to the old gods. Keep an eye on the Ghost of Winterfell, soon to be executed below a weirwood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirArthur Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 4 hours ago, St Daga said: It's all either intentionally confusing on GRRM's part, or just inconsistent. So far it has been very consistent since book 1: -eastwatch by the sea is passable over the sea -the wall can be climbed -it is possible to go through the Gorge Especially the Gorge (fresh water with no Wall) and the proximity to the given up villages along the Milkwater make me think that the problem with Wights passing the Wall has been thought through very early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Especially at the edges of the Wall, the landscape could have changed since the Wall was needed. The Gorge could be deeper or may not have even been there, the coastline could have changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted November 28, 2018 Author Share Posted November 28, 2018 It’s probably very dangerous to go around on either coast. Eastwatch has been kept maintained, whereas Westwatch is not. The Shadow Tower is the furthest west inhabited tower. The natural defenses of the gorge must be a deterrent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 On 11/27/2018 at 9:35 AM, Tucu said: I think it is intentional and another piece in the Lies of the Ancients puzzle It's possible that it is intentional, but sometimes I think it comes down to how GRRM is choosing to tell his story. He does limit himself with his POV's, and in the end, he can use the "unreliable narrator" to cover his tracks in most cases where he has himself stumbled. I admit to being more cynical than I was a couple year ago when it comes to this very subject. As to the rest of your points, I am still working my way though Fire and Blood, so am holding off on aspects in that, as much as I possibly can. I probably should just take a vacation from the boards, but that seems unlikely! I know me! 22 hours ago, SirArthur said: So far it has been very consistent since book 1: -eastwatch by the sea is passable over the sea -the wall can be climbed -it is possible to go through the Gorge Especially the Gorge (fresh water with no Wall) and the proximity to the given up villages along the Milkwater make me think that the problem with Wights passing the Wall has been thought through very early. Can the wight's climb the wall? If the wall is magic, and the wight's are animated by magic, then it seems like the barrier of magic should hold them back? But in Jon's dream, the wights are clearing climbing the wall, and not riding anything to help them out. I am not as certain as you that the concept was thought out in detail, but perhaps if we ever get a conclusion to this story, I will change my mind. It does seem like wights could circumvent the structure itself, but going around or possibly under, but if they go over it, I guess I question if they can touch it, hook into it, climb it in the same way the wildlings seem to be able too. Right now, my current mindset is that they could climb it if they wanted to (or were pushed to do so)! On 11/27/2018 at 10:33 AM, Feather Crystal said: I believe Coldhands when he says he cannot pass. Melisandre burned Orell's eagle, who carefully did not pass over the Wall. Or, perhaps Melisandre tried to take possession of the eagle and inadvertently forced it to cross the ward causing it to burn. Alysanne was unable to force her dragon to cross the Wall, because it's warded against magical beings. I am not sure about Coldhand's. We never hear him directly state he cannot pass or why, we only get Sam's version that he then tells to Bran. It's very possible that Coldhand's in the Night's King, himself, and that is why he might not be able to pass, but that doesn't necessarily translate to wights or white walkers. If his words to Sam are true, then the wards might only apply to him. I think it's possible that Mel takes the credit for burning Orell's eagle, but I am not sure that she did it. As a matter of fact, I have some tinfoil in my head that it was Jon's magic that crisped the eagle. Jon or Ghost, although Ghost doesn't show back up in the story for another chapter or so. I question that eagle has passed over the wall on scouting missions. Quote The skinchanger was grey-faced, round-shouldered, and bald, a mouse of a man with a wolfling's eyes. "Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him," he said in a soft voice. "Once a beast's been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you. And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes." "So we know," said Mance. "We know how few you were, when you stopped the turtle. We know how many came from Eastwatch. We know how your supplies have dwindled. Pitch, oil, arrows, spears. Even your stair is gone, and that cage can only lift so many. We know. And now you know we know." He opened the flap of the tent. "Come inside. The rest of you, wait here." ASOS-Jon X I know it's not a popular interpretation but the wildlings know things that go on south of the wall because I think Orell's eagle, with Varamyr skinchanging it, has crossed over the wall, and beyond it to the south. They have information that the eagle could only see if he flew over the wall. Varamyr even tells us he can soar above the wall. So the wall didn't destroy that eagle earlier, or at least I don't interpret it that way. Perhaps Mel did it, but I think her magic is more glamour and powder, (although that doesn't explain her shadow babies, I know)! Real magic is what caused Orell's eagle to burn. Fire, not shadow, which is the one power I think Mel might be able to wield! As to Alysanne's dragon, just because it didn't want to pass, doesn't mean it cannot pass the wall. Honestly, I still think this made it into the story as a way for GRRM to slam the show's episodes last season. I do question that the dragon fears something that is north of the wall and that is why it didn't want to fly over, but I doubt that it cannot pass. As I mentioned up thread, I haven't finished Fire and Blood (I am trying to make it last, since gosh knows when we might get new material and I am trying to savor what we have been given), so I could already be wrong about some of my ideas. As to a dragon being magical, I suppose so, but it's also a physical beast. One could say that the direwolves are magical beings as well, but they seem to be able to pass the wall without difficulty. I do questions what was going on with Ghost on the Fist of the First Men, as that seems like a place he didn't want to enter, and he resisted. But eventually, he came to the camp at the top and led Jon out and down and to the stash of dragonglass weapons. He needed Jon to find the buried stash, and so he crossed what is probably a magical barrier. I think the situation with the wall and Alysanne's dragon could be similar. If Alysanne had crossed the wall, which is sounds like she did, and if she had been in trouble, I have no doubt that Silverwing would have come to help her. On 11/27/2018 at 10:33 AM, Feather Crystal said: If there are dead things in the water they are floating there unable to pass south of their own accord, but if the water currents were to carry them past, then they probably could reactivate once on the other side if there were a wight walker to do it. I think the "dead things" that Cotter Pyke mentions are wights that are activated. Not just bodies floating in the water, otherwise he would just say that, wouldn't he. Dead things in the woods, as well as the water. Not bodies in the woods, but "dead things". It's a very specific difference. Yes, I get that this is all north of the wall, near Hardhome, but I so far see no reason that these "dead things" cannot pass the wall if they wanted to. Or I don't see it as cut and dry as some people do, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Dragons are different from direwolves in that 1). There were real direwolves, although not as large as GRRM's 2) We have evidence dragons are unnatural creations instead of natural animals Reading Alysanne's passage again, it is very clear this isn't like a bird flying into a glass window. The dragon chooses not to fly over the Wall. Of course that could be the dragon being aware it would be like a bird flying into a window, but I think being afraid of something on the other side is more likely. I don't see the difference between 'dead things' or 'dead bodies', but from the tone, we can assume these weren't ordinary dead people. Cotter Pyke seeing ordinary dead people would either consider it unremarkable or wonder who they were and how they died. This isn't the case at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 "dead things" is used by multiple characters as a reference to wights, human or not. With regards to the wights bypassing The Wall from the sea, we have this from Patchface: Quote Patchface jumped up. “I will lead it!” His bells rang merrily. “We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.” In the past I suggested that this was reference to resurrection as it is the same language Asha uses for the Drowned God hall. But it also works for a wight invasion through the sea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirArthur Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Tucu said: "dead things" is used by multiple characters as a reference to wights, human or not. With regards to the wights bypassing The Wall from the sea, we have this from Patchface: In the past I suggested that this was reference to resurrection as it is the same language Asha uses for the Drowned God hall. But it also works for a wight invasion through the sea. I think it was feather who suggested a few heresies back, that this is the Iron fleet landing near Meereen during the battle of the Wind of Winters sample chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirArthur Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 2 hours ago, Brad Stark said: I don't see the difference between 'dead things' or 'dead bodies', but from the tone, we can assume these weren't ordinary dead people. Cotter Pyke seeing ordinary dead people would either consider it unremarkable or wonder who they were and how they died. This isn't the case at all. I don't remember how Alliser Thorne traveled with Wight Othor's hand to King's Landing. Was it by Eastwatch ? 2 hours ago, Brad Stark said: ading Alysanne's passage again, it is very clear this isn't like a bird flying into a glass window. The dragon chooses not to fly over the Wall. Of course that could be the dragon being aware it would be like a bird flying into a window, but I think being afraid of something on the other side is more likely. Like a horse smelling a predator ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted November 29, 2018 Author Share Posted November 29, 2018 We could discuss Fire and Blood. It is one of the books, so it shouldn't be an issue. But, if everyone hasn't had a chance to look at it yet we might have to use spoiler tags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 Spoiler - it does not have much new information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 The most relevant new information is Alyssane's chapter which was released and the SSM which said Aegon might have known about a threat North of the Wall which motivated him to unite Westerous (this is not in FAB, just GRRM talking about FAB). Both of these are public. As starved as I was for new Asoiaf material, I am disappointed. Go through the other books, including the World book, and write down everything about the Targaryens before 150AC. You have 90% of FAB, the rest being mostly window dressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 F&B provides some colouring that could be used as hints of what is to come. For example the Winter Wolves and most of Cregan's army considered themselves already dead since they day they marched (an Army of the Dead?) and are mainly looking for a worthy end. Whoresbane Umber group of old men inside Winterfell are probably in the same situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 3 hours ago, Tucu said: F&B provides some colouring that could be used as hints of what is to come. For example the Winter Wolves and most of Cregan's army considered themselves already dead since they day they marched (an Army of the Dead?) and are mainly looking for a worthy end. Whoresbane Umber group of old men inside Winterfell are probably in the same situation. This is especially relevant if we if believe what we discussed about the Stark's controlling the weather - that maybe (consciously or unconsciously) Cregan himself caused that winter. And even if not, it still could be foreshadowing for A Winds of Winter - but I don't see how it merits spoiler tags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Yes, not worthy of spoiler tags, but an interesting view on the northern ways through the worst winters. The northerners POVs we got so far are from people that never faced a really harsh winter (not even Ned). I expect the old ways to be back with a vengeance in TWoW. As Roose puts it: Quote where the old gods rule, old customs linger. The Umbers keep the first night too, deny it as they may. Certain of the mountain clans as well, and on Skagos … well, only heart trees ever see half of what they do on Skagos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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