Eddard Waters Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 For the sake of the scenario, things diverge with Littlefinger getting killed by some random highwaymen in early 297 AC. Jon and Stannis exposed the twincest, leading to Jamie, Cersei and there children being killed. Tywin is irrationally obsessed with his legacy and the reputation of House Lannister and does not handle slights will, but would he be mad enough to attempt to fight the rest of Westeros? Declaring for the Targaryens are obviously not an option, so I see him declaring the Westerlands an independent kingdom if he chooses to fight Also if he does choose to fight the rest of Westeros, how long would it take for his bannerman to turn on him? He kept the westerlords in line with fear, but I highly doubt that would be enough when it becomes abundantly clear Tywin doesn't have a chance in hell of winning the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Here's Looking At You, Kid Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Deny it. Stannis can never prove his accusations. There was no such thing as a paternity test in those days. Most people in the kingdom are not willing to go to war over this issue, assuming Robert is already dead. Especially because most of them have no liking for Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddard Waters Posted November 17, 2018 Author Share Posted November 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said: Deny it. Stannis can never prove his accusations. There was no such thing as a paternity test in those days. Most people in the kingdom are not willing to go to war over this issue, assuming Robert is already dead. Especially because most of them have no liking for Stannis. My scenario diverges with Littlefinger dying leading to Jon Arryn not being assassinated by Lysa. Stannis and Jon expose the twincest well Robert is still alive. Jon Arryn was like a father to Robert and is his hand, I highly doubt Robert will believe Jon is lying to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Here's Looking At You, Kid Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Just now, Eddard Waters said: My scenario diverges with Littlefinger dying leading to Jon Arryn not being assassinated by Lysa. Stannis and Jon expose the twincest well Robert is still alive. Jon Arryn was like a father to Robert and is his hand, I highly doubt Robert will believe Jon is lying to him. In the scenario where the matter is revealed while Robert is alive, sure. Robert would go into rage and order his men to arrest Jamie, Cersei, and the children. Jamie will ask for a trial by combat. Robert, being the man that he is, will oblige and end up losing because he is out of shape. The Lannisters can then say "the gods have decided" and that is that. If Robert should somehow win and executes the children then his reign is really tragic. He and Ned took up arms against the Targaryens because of what they perceived as the king's cruelty against the innocents, especially children. What does he do but the same thing. Tywin will deny it. Cersei and Jamie should deny it. There can never be hard proof because of the level of technology. All Jon and Stannis can do is point to the children's physical appearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddard Waters Posted November 17, 2018 Author Share Posted November 17, 2018 30 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said: In the scenario where the matter is revealed while Robert is alive, sure. Robert would go into rage and order his men to arrest Jamie, Cersei, and the children. Jamie will ask for a trial by combat. Robert, being the man that he is, will oblige and end up losing because he is out of shape. The Lannisters can then say "the gods have decided" and that is that. If Robert should somehow win and executes the children then his reign is really tragic. He and Ned took up arms against the Targaryens because of what they perceived as the king's cruelty against the innocents, especially children. What does he do but the same thing. Tywin will deny it. Cersei and Jamie should deny it. There can never be hard proof because of the level of technology. All Jon and Stannis can do is point to the children's physical appearance. Obviously Tywin will deny it, but will he react violently? That's what I'm getting wondering. It's not like the other kingdoms won't follow Roberts command to invade the West, think of all that land that could be divvied up among the victorious lords. The Tyrells in particular will have major incentives to join Robert because now they can make Margaery Queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grey Wolf Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 He'd die of a heart attack if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Some kind of armed conflict would seem the most likely outcome considering Tywin's and Robert's personalities, but I wonder if that is really true. I guess a lot would depend on if Robert had custody of them all or if Cersei, Jamie and the kids managed to get to the safety of Casterly Rock. Let's say they were detained and Tywin was at the disadvantage. If we think about it, the Crown is embarrassed, the Lannisters are embarrassed and the Crown owes the Lannisters a ton of money. LF is out of the picture and Ned Stark never enters it, so if Jon Arryn and Stannis can keep it quiet and get Robert calmed down enough to listen to reason, they can show how Robert has Tywin over a barrel. For this scenario we have to believe that Tywin accepts the truth of it and has a mind to clean up the mess without major bloodshed, given that legally and morally he has no claim to be slighted or insulted at all. They order Tywin to KL and basically tell him that in exchange for him waiving the Crown's debts to the Lannisters, the Crown will keep the entire scandal quiet to preserve the Lannister name and reputation. Tywin will remain the Warden of the West (let's face it, he's still the best man for the job), but Cersei, Jamie and all three of their bastards will tragically die from a "sudden and virulent fever" that unexpectedly sweeps the Red Keep. The entire 7K will mourn their passing tearfully and with sorrow. Tywin will then openly name Tyrion as his heir (just to stick it to him) and go home and shut up about all of it if he knew what was good for him. For me, even if Tywin refused and went to war, the look on his face when Robert demanded this of him would have been worth the effort alone. I'm sure Stannis would be prickly about the whole clandestine affair, but as long as the abominations were dispossessed and disposed of, I think he'd fall in line. It does put him in a good position (at least until Robert gets it in his head to remarry or legitimize a bastard or two). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endymion I Targaryen Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 I have my doubts that Robert would believe Jon and Robert. I agree with LF's words that : Robert is practiced at closing his eyes to things he would rather not see. Robert would take Jon's words more seriously than Stannis's but still there is no proof (DNA). If they are caught while having sex (which I hope Jon arranges) then there is enough proof. In any other occasion, I see Cersei and Jaime going to trial, with Jaime at least winning. It's very complex considering the crown's debts and that there is no scientific method to prove the adultery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 I'm still surprised that Cersei didn't deny it, considering that she could have easily turned it around on Ned, suggesting that Stannis could be making a power play, since Stannis is known for his resentment. It looks quite convenient that Stannis, who would be heir if Robert doesn't have any, would be the one to come up with the news. It could be easily dismissed; Jaime makes a remark that it's convenient that Stannis is the one who makes the proclamation. It's still not smart that Cersei named her firstborn Joffrey, since the last Joffrey who was a member of a royal house was suspected to be a bastard. Stannis still technically doesn't have ironclad proof. All that can be ascertained is that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are Cersei's children, and could easily be Robert's, particularly since Joffrey's behavior could be seen as trying to act as what he sees as Robert's actions. If the phenotype of the children is dependent on the father, as would be Stannis's hypothesis, then, theoretically, Ned would have been cuckolded by Catelyn with the exception of Arya, and we all know that isn't true. Robert vs. Jaime: Who would win in single combat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Also, I think Tywin missed an opportunity to stake some more influence in the ruling of the realm by not trying to influence Joffrey and Tommen’s upbringing or have Jaime act as a parental substitute under the pretense of being his uncle. Tywin doesn’t do much between Robert’s Rebellion and the War of the Five Kings other than mobilize his forces for Greyjoy’s Rebellion, loan money to the Crown, and have his men rape his son’s teenage wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Disawov them. Tywin gives much importance to his family honor which this would ruin. I doubt they will be killed with Dtannnis and Jon handling things, if they survive Jaime goes to NW, Cersei to faith. Tywin would take his grandchildren, for they will be useful despite being bastards of incest, they are still lions of the rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 When Aegon V son refused to honor a betrothal with the daughter of Lyonel, the former started a small rebellion. If Cersei, Jaime and their children are caught, and executed, I don't see why Tywin would act any diferent. He was the guy that refused to make peace when he was already fighting the whole kingdom during the war of five kings. He left the KL when Aerys took Jaime as a KG, he started a war when Tyrion the son he hates was kidnaped, imagine his reaction when his heir is executed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LindsayLohan Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 If we know Robert, one thing is clear: Once Jon "SuperDad" Arryn tells Robert about the twincest, you can measure Jaime and Cersei's life expectancy with an egg timer. I'm thinking they're dead before sunrise, and Twyin is summoned to KL while Robert calls his banners. Ravens fly that night, with everyone other than Dorne marshaling resources ASAP to be on Robert's good side. Renly and Loras would have Marge's fine ass married to Robert within a fortnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Simply say there is no twincest. It breaks his reality thus it cannot be true. You might as well say he is a woman, the sky is purple, and Tyrion is a fine man; such claims would be less ludicrous than the claim inchest between his children regardless of the evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 If, as in the scenario that the OP proposes, Jaime, Cersei and the children are already dead, I doubt that Tywin would rise in open rebellion. He would know that he has no chance to defeat Robert, as he would count with, at least, the support of the North, the Vale, the Stormlands and the Riverlands. Also the Reach, if he decided to marry Margaery. And Dorne would never support Tywin. So he would have to pull a Doran. Hold the grudge and start planning the downfall of the Baratheons while attempting to look harmless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 On 11/17/2018 at 1:51 PM, Eddard Waters said: For the sake of the scenario, things diverge with Littlefinger getting killed by some random highwaymen in early 297 AC. Jon and Stannis exposed the twincest, leading to Jamie, Cersei and there children being killed. Tywin is irrationally obsessed with his legacy and the reputation of House Lannister and does not handle slights will, but would he be mad enough to attempt to fight the rest of Westeros? Declaring for the Targaryens are obviously not an option, so I see him declaring the Westerlands an independent kingdom if he chooses to fight Also if he does choose to fight the rest of Westeros, how long would it take for his bannerman to turn on him? He kept the westerlords in line with fear, but I highly doubt that would be enough when it becomes abundantly clear Tywin doesn't have a chance in hell of winning the war. Call the banners . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddard Waters Posted November 19, 2018 Author Share Posted November 19, 2018 2 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said: Call the banners . Then his bannermen turn on him because they don't want to have there lands ceased and be butchered by the combined might of the rest of Westeros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 On 11/17/2018 at 6:51 PM, Eddard Waters said: For the sake of the scenario, things diverge with Littlefinger getting killed by some random highwaymen in early 297 AC. Jon and Stannis exposed the twincest, leading to Jamie, Cersei and there children being killed. If Jon is still alive and it goes legally, to a trial (akin to the Boelyns and Howards under Henry VIII) then there is not a lot that Tywin can do if one or both of the twins confess, however if neither do it's a different situation. Jon did not have enough evidence when he died so its entirely dependent on when Jon comes forward and if Robert believes him and to what degree. On 11/17/2018 at 6:51 PM, Eddard Waters said: Tywin is irrationally obsessed with his legacy and the reputation of House Lannister No, not really, at least no more than the average Lord. On 11/17/2018 at 6:51 PM, Eddard Waters said: and does not handle slights will, He actually does. Aerys and his cronies constantly slighted Tywin for a number of years and he handled it well. How many medieval Lords would handle another man groping his wife as well as Tywin? On 11/17/2018 at 6:51 PM, Eddard Waters said: but would he be mad enough to attempt to fight the rest of Westeros? Probably not. He'd bide his time. On 11/17/2018 at 6:51 PM, Eddard Waters said: He kept the westerlords in line with fear Not any more than the average Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aline de Gavrillac Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 It's impossible for Stan and Jon to provide proof without a signed confession from Jaime or Cersei. I think you will agree, that is not forthcoming. This scenario is a completely different story. But yeah, the Lannisters would deny it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Eddard Waters said: Then his bannermen turn on him because they don't want to have there lands ceased and be butchered by the combined might of the rest of Westeros Tywin cannot sit idly by while both Cercei and Jaime and their children's heads end up on pikes . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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