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The Map Guy

I think I need volunteers to discuss this Top Secret Theory and determine if I should release it publicly

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

How is it possible anyone could write a thing like that about a site like this?

Ah.  I see you've written a whopping forty posts.  That's how.

You seem to be under the impression that reading and writing are the same thing. I understand that the misrepresentation conveniently enables the member measuring contest you are trying to insinuate with your comment about post count, but reading and writing aren't in fact the same thing. I began reading this site two years before I signed up and a year before I began posting. I'm familiar with this site, the asoiaf fandom as a whole, and the frequency and degree of truth claims. They are common in conversation, because conversation would become cumbersome if each of us felt the need to qualify every utterance with "I think" or some variation. But when you engage with people you find that, more often than not, they are not as immovable as they first seemed. There is an element of showmanship too, I think. It is sometimes more entertaining to watch a person champion an idea confidently than to cautiously crawl toward each point. In that case, the idea's resilience is tested as a group.

In recent years I've noticed a rise in frustration from the audience with attempts at group activities. An increasing number of fans don't seem to want to hear about asoiaf unless answers to their burning questions are delivered to them on a silver platter. But thankfully that cultural shift is less pronounced on westeros.org.
 

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Well, GRRM has studiously avoided discussing R+L=J for two decades.   And in the canon, the theory that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna never comes up at all.

So there's no trolling happening there.  If the theory proves incorrect, what it means is  that the fans deluded themselves, like Flat Earthers, into thinking they knew the truth when they did not.

However, GRRM has said this -- many times, over and over, for years:

So if we try to use the show to "confirm" any theory about the future books, we are very likely to make fools of ourselves. 

Media analysts and forum users have both often fallen into this logical pitfall.  It's been kinda funny watching it happen; the most outstanding instance I recall was a particular Vox article.

We also know, factually, that the show productions aren't even consistent with each other.  We know this because HBO has told us, about the forthcoming show, that on it we will learn "the true origin of the white walkers."

This means, of course, that Benioff and Weiss were only guessing in their version of the origin of the white walkers on their show, and they got it wrong.  Their version was not true.

Goodness gracious.  I wonder what else they were only guessing about, and got wrong...

 

SirArthur, I would only echo JNR because I agree with much of what he said. I differ on the white walkers point. I don't think the tagline of the spinoff excludes the possibility that the origin of the white walkers is in alignment with the origin of the Others in the books. I can prove that the origins will be in alignment in show and book using the text but it is a long proof.

The word "true" may simply mean "a closer look at" or "another perspective of." It does seem to suggest that GoT will leave us in the dark about the white walkers though. Or at least that it may leave us wanting to know more.

Edited by rustythesmith

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10 hours ago, Pebble said:

Stop spoiling our fun.  The op has created a lot of fun and ammusment, and dreams of pink stretch the return.

You haaaaad to bring this up :p

I won't lie, the pink stretch came to my mind as I was reading this thread too.

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1 hour ago, rustythesmith said:

You seem to be under the impression that reading and writing are the same thing. I understand that the misrepresentation conveniently enables the member measuring contest you are trying to insinuate with your comment about post count, but reading and writing aren't in fact the same thing. I began reading this site two years before I signed up and a year before I began posting. I'm familiar with this site, the asoiaf fandom as a whole, and the frequency and degree of truth claims. They are common in conversation, because conversation would become cumbersome if each of us felt the need to qualify every utterance with "I think" or some variation. But when you engage with people you find that, more often than not, they are not as immovable as they first seemed. There is an element of showmanship too, I think. It is sometimes more entertaining to watch a person champion an idea confidently than to cautiously crawl toward each point. In that case, the idea's resilience is tested as a group.

In recent years I've noticed a rise in frustration from the audience with attempts at group activities. An increasing number of fans don't seem to want to hear about asoiaf unless answers to their burning questions are delivered to them on a silver platter. But thankfully that cultural shift is less pronounced on westeros.org.
 

SirArthur, I would only echo JNR because I agree with much of what he said. I differ on the white walkers point. I don't think the tagline of the spinoff excludes the possibility that the origin of the white walkers is in alignment with the origin of the Others in the books. I can prove that the origins will be in alignment in show and book using the text but it is a long proof.

The word "true" may simply mean "a closer look at" or "another perspective of." It does seem to suggest that GoT will leave us in the dark about the white walkers though. Or at least that it may leave us wanting to know more.

 

You claim that you can prove the origin of the White Walkers. Are you an insider? And why do your posts read like you got stuck in essay-writing mode and forgot where the off switch is?

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3 hours ago, rustythesmith said:

The TV show already revealed the origin of the white walkers in 605 I believe. If watching the TV show makes me an insider then sure. What we were talking about was whether or not the origin in the show will reflect the origin in the books. If my memory is right I think LML highlighted where in the books the same origin is already seeded, so that's a good place to start. Since the seeds are few and very easy to miss, I don't feel comfortable using information outed by the TV show to reveal information that has hardly been hinted in the books. When Martin advances his reveal I'll probably feel less gross about sharing my 2 cents. But my additions aren't necessary to evidence the alignment.

I don't know but I will take that as a compliment.

Just an unserious, kibbitzing noob here, but  I'd just like to point out that as eloquent and thorough as LML's theories are, they're essentially well-written fan fiction.  What starts with canonical references quickly delves into the apocryphal and takes a sharp left turn from there.  

 I'd hesitate to use that body of work as a basis for a proof.  But I'm just a jive-lurkey. A lurkey-Lou. A Lurkasaurus Rex.  

 Speaking of dinosaurs... You know what this reminds me of? Like in Jurassic Park, when they only had partial dinosaur DNA, and a rough idea of what a final dinosaur was supposed to be like, so they used DNA strands from completely different animals to fill in the gaps, and ended up with a dinosaur - shaped abomination that made everyone excited at first then disappointed when it failed to meet expectations, and finally horrified when it  ate it's creator.

 Yeah I totally can't wait to read this Map Guy theory, I hope it survives the Star Chamber's deliberations. :-)

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27 minutes ago, Reekazoid said:

Just an unserious, kibbitzing noob here, but  I'd just like to point out that as eloquent and thorough as LML's theories are, they're essentially well-written fan fiction.  What starts with canonical references quickly delves into the apocryphal and takes a sharp left turn from there.  

 I'd hesitate to use that body of work as a basis for a proof.  But I'm just a jive-lurkey. A lurkey-Lou. A Lurkasaurus Rex.  

 Speaking of dinosaurs... You know what this reminds me of? Like in Jurassic Park, when they only had partial dinosaur DNA, and a rough idea of what a final dinosaur was supposed to be like, so they used DNA strands from completely different animals to fill in the gaps, and ended up with a dinosaur - shaped abomination that made everyone excited at first then disappointed when it failed to meet expectations, and finally horrified when it  ate it's creator.

 Yeah I totally can't wait to read this Map Guy theory, I hope it survives the Star Chamber's deliberations. :-)

Hahaha and here I thought I was the only one. Much of LML's theorizing and musings are too loosely connected for me too. He seems like a cool person and he is able to grab my interest. I think he may even be on the right track with some of his ideas regarding prophecy and astronomical events. But when he goes off text and into pure speculation based on real world mythology I don't know what he's talking about anymore, how it proves anything about the story, or what will happen to the characters.

That said, I'm not certain it was LML. And the post didn't go into speculative territory much if at all. It was more like a list of book quotes. I'll try to find it though. Oh that was easier than I thought.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4klqi7/spoilers_extended_the_books_already_told_us_who/

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6 hours ago, rustythesmith said:

The TV show already revealed the origin of the white walkers in 605 I believe. If watching the TV show makes me an insider then sure. What we were talking about was whether or not the origin in the show will reflect the origin in the books. If my memory is right I think LML highlighted where in the books the same origin is already seeded, so that's a good place to start. Since the seeds are few and very easy to miss, I don't feel comfortable using information outed by the TV show to reveal information that has hardly been hinted in the books. When Martin advances his reveal I'll probably feel less gross about sharing my 2 cents. But my additions aren't necessary to evidence the alignment.

I don't know but I will take that as a compliment.

There is a new show being proposed about the long night and the promo details say something about the "true" creation of the Others. So what we were shown on the show is not in anyway true it seems. The show made it up, I guess. 

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According to HBO, the drama “chronicles the world’s descent from the golden Age of Heroes into its darkest hour. And only one thing is for sure: from the horrifying secrets of Westeros’ history to the true origin of the white walkers, the mysteries of the East to the Starks of legend … it’s not the story we think we know.”

 

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

@The Map Guy

Some of us are not fooled by the Emperor's 'new clothes'.

Put up or shut up.

I know, right. I am so curious now. I mean I'm new here but why should I be left out? 

 

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2 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

Just an unserious, kibbitzing noob here, but  I'd just like to point out that as eloquent and thorough as LML's theories are, they're essentially well-written fan fiction.  What starts with canonical references quickly delves into the apocryphal and takes a sharp left turn from there.  

 I'd hesitate to use that body of work as a basis for a proof.  But I'm just a jive-lurkey. A lurkey-Lou. A Lurkasaurus Rex.  

 Speaking of dinosaurs... You know what this reminds me of? Like in Jurassic Park, when they only had partial dinosaur DNA, and a rough idea of what a final dinosaur was supposed to be like, so they used DNA strands from completely different animals to fill in the gaps, and ended up with a dinosaur - shaped abomination that made everyone excited at first then disappointed when it failed to meet expectations, and finally horrified when it  ate it's creator.

 Yeah I totally can't wait to read this Map Guy theory, I hope it survives the Star Chamber's deliberations. :-)

 

1 hour ago, rustythesmith said:

Hahaha and here I thought I was the only one. Much of LML's theorizing and musings are too loosely connected for me too. He seems like a cool person and he is able to grab my interest. I think he may even be on the right track with some of his ideas regarding prophecy and astronomical events. But when he goes off text and into pure speculation based on real world mythology I don't know what he's talking about anymore, how it proves anything about the story, or what will happen to the characters.

That said, I'm not certain it was LML. And the post didn't go into speculative territory much if at all. It was more like a list of book quotes. I'll try to find it though. Oh that was easier than I thought.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4klqi7/spoilers_extended_the_books_already_told_us_who/

Wow. Ok. A friend told me about this Lml a while ago and I tried reading the essays before I saw he has videos. He likes to be weird, which is cool and all, but yeah he is deep in the fan fiction realm and I can pass on that because the books are so big and complicated as it is. 

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On 11/22/2018 at 10:01 PM, The Piper Report said:

So I know I'm a new here but are people really falling for this?  The OP appears to be grandstanding trying to garner attention and make himself appear as a grand-old ASOIAF theorist.  A theory that will break the internet and ruin GRRM?  Have you heard of Pizzagate?  The internet is full of crazy theories, theories more insane than Pizzagate and the internet has yet to be broken; lives have yet to be ruined.  There are many crazy ASOIAF theories as well.

For starters, as the OP said, it is a theory, not a fact.  Many people theorize about other people, it's called rumors and gossip.  The theory will be speculation based on context in the books.  It may be creative, it may have some interesting tidbits, but at the end of the day it is a theory.  This thread, on the other hand, is similar to elementary school tactics kids used to tease each other and build up their own self-importance.

Kid 1: "I know a huge secret about X"

kid 2: "Really?  What is it?"

Kid 1: "Sorry, not telling.  It's my secret.  Hey everyone, I have a secret about X but I'm not telling you.  Be sure to beg me for the secret and give me your full attention for days and weeks on end, and then maybe I will tell you.  Or maybe I won't.  But trust me, it's huge!."

I don't know, kind of immature, especially doing it on a public forum by creating your thread with the sole purpose of getting people to beg you to release the theory or to join you and then maybe (or maybe not) relay the grandest ASOIAF theory of all time.  It would have been more appropriate to PM trusted members on the board yourself and discuss it with them, then if you decided to post it then make your own thread and post the theory as a spoiler.  You could have even told everyone the steps you went through to post it.  This way you aren't leading people on and raising people's curiosity over a theory you may not even release.  You should have kept everyone ignorant until you and those you contacted agreed to release it. 

Very immature behavior, OP

Yup. Looks like the OP accomplished what he or she set out to do, get the attention of the older cool kids All and all it was a strange way to try and make at least 6 friends and, I must admit, a rather impressive exercise in advertising. I'd be surprised if we hear more about this groundbreaking theory though.

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4 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Yup. Looks like the OP accomplished what he or she set out to do, get the attention of the older cool kids All and all it was a strange way to try and make at least 6 friends and, I must admit, a rather impressive exercise in advertising. I'd be surprised if we hear more about this groundbreaking theory though.

Oh I'm sure we will here things about the theory.  These kinda things become  part of board legend, and not for the reasons the op probably thinks.

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So the OP thinks he has found something so huge in the books which would end Martin's career because it might offend a group of people? What does that say about the world we live in or the OP?

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20 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

7 years between books, man.

George, you see what's the wait doing to us? Do you see?

This. We need the next book. Desperately.

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19 hours ago, rustythesmith said:

You seem to be under the impression that reading and writing are the same thing.

Well, I'm saying it's really very common for people to express dead certainty about a complex theory on this site.  Examples would have to include:

• Jon's parents being Rhaegar and Lyanna

• Lyanna having died at the ToJ

• Lyanna being the Knight of the Laughing Tree

• Jon being the blue flower in the ice wall in Dany's HOTU vision

• The app solely containing information "GRRM wants us to have"

• Benioff and Weiss having been told everything important about future books

• The Hound being the Gravedigger

...and on and on and on.  There are so many theories like this, that fans believe are a sure thing, we have a term for them: fanon.

Often, quotes on such topics will include standard phrases such as "100% probability" "unwritten canon," "beyond question," "beyond doubt," "dead lock," "established," "confirmed," etc., etc.  It happens all the time.

I have no idea what the Top Secret theory of this thread is all about, but if the author says it's a sure thing (and he has), that just seems like one more example to me.  The difference is mainly that since nobody else knows the theory, he's the only one who said it in this case.

However, when it comes to sure things in this canon, one would do well to consider the GRRM quote in my sig and the year he said it.

Edited by JNR

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On 11/22/2018 at 5:47 AM, rustythesmith said:

Martin demonstrates through ASOIAF that he has a great respect for literary puzzles that we like to call mysteries, prophecies, and foreshadowing. They are a metatextual game between the author and reader, and the game comes with some rules.

It also sets up a game among the readers, all vying with one another to 'crack the mystery,' aiming to be among the privileged few to figure it out first.  

This inevitably gives rise to anxiety that someone else may know something one hastn't quite gleaned. Hence the absurd popularity of this essentially vapid OP, claiming to know the mind of the author.  

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One of those rules is that the author must place sufficient clues in the text that the reader aught to have a reasonable chance to solve the mystery/prophecy/future by paying very close attention. The reason it is important that the author places sufficient clues is because otherwise the game would not be fair for the reader. We cannot solve a mystery that hasn't been properly seeded.

 Oh, you think GRRM plays fair, do you..?  Sweet summer child...

Quote

Now imagine that Martin, as a career storyteller and writer, has a great understanding, love, and respect for this kind of game. He knows that he needs to properly seed the clues to his mysteries, otherwise the readers will feel cheated when the answers come out of nowhere.

Because the answers to mysteries are, in fact, well seeded and integrated into the story in meaningful, satisfyingly metaphoric ways, when the reader discovers a correct answer to a mystery, the books have a way of outing the accuracy of the answer. Pieces that didn't make sense before suddenly begin to snap together in very satisfying ways that resonate with the story on multiple dimensions of analysis. It rings with the overarching themes of the story, the internal conflicts of the characters involved, the premises of the story and setting, and it utilizes literary tricks that Martin has used before in other places.

Since those tricks are used in other places, it allows us to use the text to define the text, which is perhaps the golden rule of engaging with any mystery. Use the text to define the text. It's a dictionary unto itself.

Well said.

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ADWD The Ugly Little Girl

...and there the entrance to the Patternmaker's Maze. Only those who learn to walk it properly will ever find their way to wisdom, the priests of the Pattern say.

This is a metaphor for reading.

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For example, when Ned lies to the dying Robert Baratheon that he will protect his children, meaning his bastard children, it demonstrates to the reader that that kind of lie is fair play in the metagame that is ASOIAF mysteries. Martin uses that trick against us the same way Ned uses it against Robert, and our job is to remember that as we analyze the text for clues. 

Agreed.

The particular example you referenced is reminiscent of GRRM's stated fondness for fulfilling prophecy in unexpected ways,  blurring the spirit and the letter, giving the words an ironic twist.

 

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Well, I'm saying it's really very common for people to express dead certainty about a complex theory on this site.  Examples would have to include:

• Jon's parents being Rhaegar and Lyanna

• Lyanna having died at the ToJ

• Lyanna being the Knight of the Laughing Tree

• Jon being the blue flower in the ice wall in Dany's HOTU vision

• The app solely containing information "GRRM wants us to have"

• Benioff and Weiss having been told everything important about future books

• The Hound being the Gravedigger

...and on and on and on.  There are so many theories like this, that fans believe are a sure thing, we have a term for them: fanon.

Often, quotes on such topics will include standard phrases such as "100% probability" "unwritten canon," "beyond question," "beyond doubt," "dead lock," "established," "confirmed," etc., etc.  It happens all the time.

Indeed. We would do well to remember that instead of one elite person possessing The Top Secret, it is rather a case of We All Know Nothing!

 

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I have no idea what the Top Secret theory of this thread is all about, but if the author says it's a sure thing (and he has), that just seems like one more example to me.  The difference is mainly that since nobody else knows the theory, he's the only one who said it in this case.

"I know words; I have the best words..." 

Quote

However, when it comes to sure things in this canon, one would do well to consider the GRRM quote in my sig and the year he said it.

Which quote? It isn't appearing in your signature in my feed.

Edited by ravenous reader

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30 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Which quote? It isn't appearing in your signature in my feed.

 

Try checking your account settings. You probably have signatures disabled. If not IDK.

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Why do you guys keep thinking I am the only one to know this Top Secret Theory? Six others know about it now.

I started this thread not to flaunt, but to recruit six highly decorated ASOIAF veterans to discuss the impact of this theory internally in the books, and externally in the outside world.

The fact that none of these six highly decorated ASOIAF veterans have came out publicly saying "false alarm, Map Guy has bullshit" ... what does that say?

We are still in discussion.

I don't want to prematurely reveal this theory and offend a group of people known for destroying other people's careers. I don't want this group coming after GRRM. I want assess this potential threat with the committee. 

Yes, Top Secret Theory is just a theory. But a theory which only has a .0001% of just being a coincidence since I linked Hyrkoon the Hero, Yin Tar, Neferion & Eldric the Shadowchaser. 

A theory can only be confirmed if GRRM writes or says it. R+L=J is still just a theory.

 

And thanks to the people who are defending me.

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29 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Why do you guys keep thinking I am the only one to know this Top Secret Theory? Six others know about it now.

I started this thread not to flaunt, but to recruit six highly decorated ASOIAF veterans to discuss the impact of this theory internally in the books, and externally in the outside world. 

The fact that none of these six highly decorated ASOIAF veterans have came out publicly saying "false alarm, Map Guy has bullshit" ... what does that say?

That you made them up?...
(Of course, they can come out and disprove me. Until then, my opinion stands).

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45 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Why do you guys keep thinking I am the only one to know this Top Secret Theory? Six others know about it now.

Ooh, lucky them!

45 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

I started this thread not to flaunt, but to recruit six highly decorated ASOIAF veterans to discuss the impact of this theory internally in the books, and externally in the outside world.

The fact that none of these six highly decorated ASOIAF veterans have came out publicly saying "false alarm, Map Guy has bullshit" ... what does that say?

Good that they are such 'highly decorated veterans'. You need all the help you can get, in possession of this terrible knowledge! I wish you good fortune in the wars to come.

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3 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, I'm saying it's really very common for people to express dead certainty about a complex theory on this site.  Examples would have to include:

• Jon's parents being Rhaegar and Lyanna

• Lyanna having died at the ToJ

• Lyanna being the Knight of the Laughing Tree

• Jon being the blue flower in the ice wall in Dany's HOTU vision

• The app solely containing information "GRRM wants us to have"

• Benioff and Weiss having been told everything important about future books

• The Hound being the Gravedigger

...and on and on and on.  There are so many theories like this, that fans believe are a sure thing, we have a term for them: fanon.

Often, quotes on such topics will include standard phrases such as "100% probability" "unwritten canon," "beyond question," "beyond doubt," "dead lock," "established," "confirmed," etc., etc.  It happens all the time.

I have no idea what the Top Secret theory of this thread is all about, but if the author says it's a sure thing (and he has), that just seems like one more example to me.  The difference is mainly that since nobody else knows the theory, he's the only one who said it in this case.

However, when it comes to sure things in this canon, one would do well to consider the GRRM quote in my sig and the year he said it.

I experience similar frustration with fanon so I get where you're coming from. If this were only two years ago I would have had the same reaction as everyone else. It's stupid when someone tries to lord information over everyone else as if they know something we don't or as if they have the power to ruin Martin's career or something, and take pleasure in it. They seem like power starved weasels and my instinctive response is to deprive them of the satisfaction they clearly crave, at all costs. Because the first thing a weasel will do with your fealty is abuse it.

Having come across a handful of those people over the years, I've learned that that instinctive response is not the best first response, for a number of reasons. It is the best last response, and its deployment needs to be weighed against the magnitude of the threat, of my curiosity, or whatever is at stake.

One reason is that those types of people often do have some kind of knowledge or power that piques my curiosity or that they can use to cause harm if pressed. Otherwise, they would not have had the courage to step forward to begin with. Power starved weasels are power starved because they're cowardly in other areas, and cowards rarely bluff because they are terrible at bluffing and know it.

Another reason is that their ability to discover the knowledge or accumulate the power is valuable, and that ability makes them a valuable potential ally. Some of the sharpest minds I have had access to in life were won because I was able to (1) take the time to figure out of I'm dealing with a weasel or simply a cautious person (2) in the case that it is a weasel, to temper my distaste for the manifestations of their inferiority complexes, to gain an understanding of their needs and to meet those needs on my own terms in a dignified way to a degree I can tolerate.

Anyway, the stakes are very low. First, it is just a story. It isn't the end of the world if a story gets spoiled or the games solved. Second, spoiling isn't ruining. I watched the end of Season 5 before I read the books and I can't imagine enjoying the books more than I did. Whatever the fans find and share, Martin will always tell the story better than we can.

Quote

Well, I'm saying it's really very common for people to express dead certainty about a complex theory on this site.

Words of certainty are one thing, but actions speak louder. It's very uncommon for people to act upon their certainty by seeking out guidance on whether or not to share their ideas. One reason is that seeking out people to share your ideas with requires you to actually share your ideas with them. Unless a person is either absurdly confident about the idea's resilience or absurdly low in self-consciousness then they won't usually feel comfortable doing that.

Edited by rustythesmith

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