Problematic aspects of Sansa`s education

[Angel Eyes]

Well, I guess I can agree with most of the stuff about Septa Mordane, but I wil note that the “courtesies” taught to Sansa enabled her to survive King’s Landing; if Arya was in the same position she would most likely be killed (read: survive, not thrive). Though, Ned could have taught Sansa how to use a knife. Catelyn knew how to use a knife and so did Arya, why not Sansa? Not much of a fan of Septa Mordane practically pitting Sansa against Arya, and very few kids/teenagers would say that their sister’s head should be on a spike. 

[John Suburbs]

On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 9:49 AM, AliceRose said:

snip

The quotes about Sansa becoming so willful as time goes by speak more to her underlying character than anything else.

We know that the Stark children share a bond with their dire wolves and that each wolf adopts personalities similar to their owner. As we can see from Bran and Arya (and Rickon), this is a two-way street in which the wolf seems to influence the child's character as well. So right off the bat, we can suspect that this new willfulness on the part of Sansa is coming from Lady.

We can also see that when a warg is near death, they are absorbed wholly into their animal. We saw this with Varamyr, not to mention Bran, and in the way both Robb and Jon called out their wolf's name with their last breath. So again, might we assume the reverse is true? When the wolf dies, is it absorbed into the warg? Might that explain many of Sansa's subsequent actions, such as her informing the queen of Ned's intentions and her later antagonisms of Joffrey, when Sansa herself admits that she didn't know why she was doing these things.

And most importantly, might it have something to do with her false memory of the unkiss?

[Springwatch]

On 11/18/2018 at 1:32 PM, wia said:

Sansa got exactly the same kind of education as Arya and, as it happens, they're nothing alike. So I'd say the education they've gotten had very little to do with what sort of people they are. And their education is most likely very similar to what most other noble ladies are experiencing in Westeros.

It's a funny thing, but Sansa, who is Mordane's favourite, is extremely insecure in company. That is the exact thing she was supposed to learn from Mordane - her role in high society. In contrast, Arya is at ease with every level of society and has no qualms in turning down an invitation from the queen.

So I agree with @wia - Mordane's (lack of) emotional support had little influence on the girls' mental state.

On 11/18/2018 at 6:16 PM, Platypus Rex said:

Sansa is an idealist.  She also has a tendency to see the world through rose-colored glasses and/or perceive things inaccurately.  The latter is clearly a flaw.  The former is not.  Let us put it this way:  Sansa was wrong to perceive Joffrey as a True Knight.  She was not, however, wrong to think Joffrey OUGHT to have been a True Knight.

Perceiving things inaccurately - not so much; she's comparable with other characters. Arya perceives/remembers things inaccurately in several scenes; it's not such a big deal.

Sansa was a victim of charm on steroids. And she's a newly bereaved warg with a wolf in her head. That's enough to explain some confusion in an eleven year old.

To the rest, I agree.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

It's a funny thing, but Sansa, who is Mordane's favourite, is extremely insecure in company.

Up until her father and all of the Northmen in kings landing are butchered she is perfectly fine in company, infact given her circumstances she is still excellent in company afterwards, able to act graceful and respectful despite who she is forced to be around.

Mordane has done an excellent job.

[Nevets]

20 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Except that's not true, if it was she would never have gone against her father's wishes in a bid to remain in the capital. She rebelled against her 'education' and paid dearly for it.

She mentions that this was very unusual behavior for herself.  Says she "felt like Arya" when she was doing it.  So I would categorize it as aberrant behavior on her part. and quite atypical.

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

It's a funny thing, but Sansa, who is Mordane's favourite, is extremely insecure in company. That is the exact thing she was supposed to learn from Mordane - her role in high society. In contrast, Arya is at ease with every level of society and has no qualms in turning down an invitation from the queen.

She's not at all uncomfortable in company.  She does pretty well on the trip from Winterfell to KL (at least before Lady's death).  Also, at Joffrey's wedding reception, Tyrion is impressed at her ability to work the room.  She knows what to say to everybody there.

[Platypus Rex]

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Perceiving things inaccurately - not so much; she's comparable with other characters. 

Comparable?  Sure.  But I think there's a theme with Sansa:  Her refusal to look at Sandor.  Her ability to "look without seeing" at faces that frighten her.  Joffrey's "wormy lips", which she notices only on realizing he is a villain (and which no-one else seems to notice).  Her prior failure to realize he did not conform to her ideals in ANY respect.  It's not a big deal, if it leads nowhere.  But I have this idea that its a setup for something.

[Lollygag]

51 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Comparable?  Sure.  But I think there's a theme with Sansa:  Her refusal to look at Sandor.  Her ability to "look without seeing" at faces that frighten her.  Joffrey's "wormy lips", which she notices only on realizing he is a villain (and which no-one else seems to notice).  Her prior failure to realize he did not conform to her ideals in ANY respect.  It's not a big deal, if it leads nowhere.  But I have this idea that its a setup for something.

I don’t think not seeing Joff like he really is is much different than others. A lot of characters don’t see others. Ned doesn’t see Robert. Neither Cat or Lysa see LF. Jaime doesn’t see Cersei. That’s where a lot of plots turn actually. Thing is that not only was Sansa preoccupied with life being a song, it was the only way that she understood life, the only way she processed it. Sansa had to change on a world-view level to acknowledge Joff. At 11. Plus, she was already betrothed and it was out of her hands. Can’t blame her for trying to avoid the fact that she was stuck with the likes of him the rest of her life. And as soon as she gets to KL and finds a good candidate, she transfers hero-status to Loras which means her view on Joff did change to a degree, though not so much as it should have.

 

Jon does notice Joff's wormy lips, though he's a bit nicer about it.

AGOT Jon I

Sansa looked radiant as she walked beside him, but Jon did not like Joffrey's pouty lips or the bored, disdainful way he looked at Winterfell's Great Hall.  

 

Sansa sees Sandor’s face just fine. What he wanted to her to see is that life wasn’t a song as evidenced by his face caused by his brother, who while brutal, was never expected to be such a  monster. That’s why he dared tell her what happened to him. Sandor used to be like Sansa (he was burned because he couldn't help himself from playing with Gregor's toy knights of all things), and he was trying to warn her off Joff, trying to tell her to be very careful around him. I suspect that the Hound’s bond with Joff had something to do with Sandor trying to fix a Gregor-type person as a way to heal himself as people so often do. But then Joff sent him off into a fire, and that was that. Below we see that Sansa closes her eyes because he’s close and she thinks he’s kissing her. Most close their eyes here. But the Hound misreads this. I wonder how many times his insecurity causes him to misread Sansa. That Sansa was able to calm him with a song tells me that she reads him better than what he gives her credit for. We also see this with Tyrion and Sansa. Tyrion’s insecurities often have him misreading Sansa. He blames himself or his appearance when we see from Sansa’s POV that her reactions are to something else entirely.

 

ACOK Sansa VII

"I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them." He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened. "Still can't bear to look, can you?" she heard him say.

AGOT Sansa II

The left side of his face was a ruin. His ear had been burned away; there was nothing left but a hole. His eye was still good, but all around it was a twisted mass of scar, slick black flesh hard as leather, pocked with craters and fissured by deep cracks that gleamed red and wet when he moved. Down by his jaw, you could see a hint of bone where the flesh had been seared away.

 

I think the problem seeing for Sansa will be that life isn't a song. She claims she's done with all of that, yet she still drifts off to it sometimes. A comfort zone I guess.

 

[Springwatch]

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Up until her father and all of the Northmen in kings landing are butchered she is perfectly fine in company, infact given her circumstances she is still excellent in company afterwards, able to act graceful and respectful despite who she is forced to be around.

Mordane has done an excellent job.

 

12 hours ago, Nevets said:

She's not at all uncomfortable in company.  She does pretty well on the trip from Winterfell to KL (at least before Lady's death).  Also, at Joffrey's wedding reception, Tyrion is impressed at her ability to work the room.  She knows what to say to everybody there.

On the surface, perhaps. Inside, she's a mess. Where is this girl's self-esteem?

I pulled up some quotes:

Quote

Alone and humiliated [by Arya!???!!], Sansa took the long way back to the inn.... She was almost in tears. [AGOT - SANSA I]

The Hound, ever faithful, bowed and slid quietly through the press. Sansa struggled to steady herself. She felt such a fool. [AGOT - SANSA I]

"You mean the Hound," she said. She wanted to hit herself for being so slow. Her prince would never love her if she seemed stupid. [AGOT - SANSA I]

[To Petyr] "I'm Sansa Stark," she said, ill at ease. [AGOT - SANSA II]

She had fretted over her jewelry for hours ... He does love me, he does. Sansa lifted her head and walked towards him, not too slow and not too fast. She must not let them see how nervous she was. [AGOT - SANSA V]

Lancel was one of them, yet somehow she still could not bring herself to wish him dead. I am soft and weak and stupid, just as Joffrey says. I should be killing him, not helping him. [ACOK - SANSA VII]

Sansa reddened. Any fool would have realized that no woman would be happy about being called "the Queen of Thorns." Maybe I truly am as stupid as Cersei Lannister says. Desperately she tried to think of something clever and charming to say to him, but her wits had deserted her.... [ASOS - SANSA I]

She could not wait for Willas to see her like this. He will love me, he must ... he will forget Winterfell when he sees me, I'll see that he does. [ASOS - SANSA III]

She's got the education, the skills, the charm - but she's so crippled by lack of confidence, she struggles to perform. Catelyn says Sansa was a lady at three, courteous and eager to please. Well, she's grown up desperate to please - to attract love by being beautiful, by being witty, by being flattering. She doesn't think she could attract love just by being herself. It's a shame.

8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Comparable?  Sure.  But I think there's a theme with Sansa:  Her refusal to look at Sandor.  Her ability to "look without seeing" at faces that frighten her.  Joffrey's "wormy lips", which she notices only on realizing he is a villain (and which no-one else seems to notice).  Her prior failure to realize he did not conform to her ideals in ANY respect.  It's not a big deal, if it leads nowhere.  But I have this idea that its a setup for something.

There is a theme. It's eyes. Just about every character feels the weight of eyes on them at some point. Sansa looks into Cersei's eyes and is lost - it's a sign of coercion basically. Looking and not looking is a necessary skill.

(Joff's lips are famous - among the girls anyway. Such beautiful lips, according to Megga, but Sansa goes off his looks when she realises he's a villain. No surprise there.)

[rotting sea cow]

On 11/18/2018 at 1:47 AM, AliceRose said:

At my very first reading I was perceiving Sansa as an unlikeable character. I ought to admit my feelings against her used to be pretty strong. From reading several ASOIAF related forums I have got the idea that my first impressions on Sansa are widely shared. It is curious because she didn't do anything truly despicable, she is just a child, her mistakes could be easily overlooked and yet she gets an incredible amount of criticism bordering with hatred.

My strong feelings of dislike toward her pushed me to want to understand more about what exactly I didn't like. Which traits of Sansa`s character were making her so unbearable to me. I have started to read this forum as well as similar platforms in other languages and most importantly I did a second re-read.. and then a third and a fourth. By now I should have read all Sansa related chapters a hundred times each. She is a facinating object of study.

Forum opinions on Sansa are very interesting, but unfortunately it happens quite often that Sansa fans and Sansa haters alike give completely false and unproven motivations to her most controversial decisions. For example in my opinion too many people claimed that Sansa has made a conscious decision to say nothing in Darry during the hearing, haters say that she had consciously decied to lie for her egoistic interests, some Sansa fans say that she had consciously decided to avoide confrontation because she is smart and it wouldn't be wise to ruin her relationships with her future family. She was scared to death, her eyes were full of tears, she didn't decide anything at all, let alone being conscious about the consequences of her words.

Sansa is an absolute masterpiece of literature work, Martin did an incredible amount of care and details into her. I believe that only several careful and unbiased re-reads can help to flesh out her true personality.

Well that's was a long introduction. I will try to give you my answer to the question which traits of Sansa`s character are so unbearable for many of us.. Sansa`s education was questionable on so many levels that I wonder how did she manage to come up as a decent human being. I will stop talking too much and just bring to your attention problematic aspects of Sansa`s life.

There are two main issues with Sansa`s upbringing: total neglect from her parents and awful influence from an ignorant, incompetent, misogynistic teacher. Both factors are equally allarming.

I had the same feelings during my first reads, to the point I skipped many of Sansa's chapters because they were quite unbearable for me. Then I decided to "force me" to read them, not once but many times and I agree she is a masterful piece of literary work. The first thing I disliked is she was too girly for my guts, but then as you did, I noticed  more than that, and indeed there is a lot to say about education

Many people have focused in the Sansa-Arya dichotomy to the point of calling GRRM sexist for presenting a typical feminine character in poor light, favouring the tomboyish Arya.  But I think it misses the point. What we have here is a critic to traditional education. We see that in other Starklings too, Robb, Bran and sometimes even Jon.

 

Whilst all Starklings received in general the same education, some children need some extra care guiding them during their learnings. Sansa may have been a easier child and sometimes because they are easier, parents tend to overlook some troublesome aspects. I wouldn't say Ned & Cat totally neglected her, that is a overstatement, however, between Ned's traumas, Cat's traditionalism and  Septa Mordane's teachings a lot of damage was done.

It seems to me that Sansa was naturally inclined to buy into narratives if they are sweetened enough. She wanted the world to be beautiful. She was inclined to daydream. Etc. Most parents want their children to be happy and be children, but it is also responsibility of the parents to teach their children that there is a world out there and it is not always beautiful.

So, Sansa's education, whilst excellent at the formal level was seriously lacking some connection to reality. Robb - as the heir - received that. Even Bran, for example, when witnessing the execution of a Night's Watch deserter. Arya was naturally inclined to listen other things and to think laterally. Sansa lacked the later ability and lacked the investment her brothers received in informal aspects of education.

 

 

 

 

[Platypus Rex]

20 hours ago, Lollygag said:

"I don’t think not seeing Joff like he really is is much different than others."

I'm not suggesting she is unique in her quirks.  Merely that her quirks are part of a setup for something to come. 

"Sansa sees Sandor’s face just fine."

I don't think so.  She's only ever looked at it once, when she was ordered to.  And then, all her focus was on the rage in his eyes, and the scars on his face.   She also notices that his eyes are grey, but that could be an illusion, due to the dimness of the torchlight, and the dilation of pupils produced by his drunkenness and rage.  She notices that his entire left ear is gone, leaving nothing but a hole -- but that is totally wrong, since the remainder of Sandor's ear does not get chopped off until later in the story.  

She was looking without seeing; looking without recognizing.   This is the same defense mechanism she used when Joffrey ordered her to look at her father's head on a post.

When she next sees him, she will not know him.  Not if the rage is gone from his calm blue eyes.

"Below we see that Sansa closes her eyes because he’s close and she thinks he’s kissing her. Most close their eyes here. But the Hound misreads this." 

He misreads nothing.  Sansa is terrified.

"That Sansa was able to calm him with a song tells me that she reads him better than what he gives her credit for."

In her terror, it is the only song she can think of.  She turns to the Seven for aid, and sings a hymn.  

"...she transfers hero-status to Loras which means her view on Joff did change to a degree, though not so much as it should have." 

Her opinion on Joff has entirely changed.  She now hopes that Loras may somehow meet her ideal of a hero, and that may be wrong too.  But if are you suggesting she should abandon the ideal itself, I don't agree.

"I think the problem seeing for Sansa will be that life isn't a song. She claims she's done with all of that, yet she still drifts off to it sometimes. A comfort zone I guess."

Are you sure Sansa is wrong?  Are you sure that, by the time the dust settles, she will not have won the argument?  Why is the word "song" part of the title to the series?   Should she really allow a bunch of cynical evil monsters and villains to dictate to her the true meaning of life?

 

 

 

 

[Lollygag]

 

36 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

I'm not suggesting she is unique in her quirks.  Merely that her quirks are part of a setup for something to come. 

"Sansa sees Sandor’s face just fine."

I don't think so.  She's only ever looked at it once, when she was ordered to.  And then, all her focus was on the rage in his eyes, and the scars on his face.   She also notices that his eyes are grey, but that could be an illusion, due to the dimness of the torchlight, and the dilation of pupils produced by his drunkenness and rage.  She notices that his entire left ear is gone, leaving nothing but a hole -- but that is totally wrong, since the remainder of Sandor's ear does not get chopped off until later in the story.  

She was looking without seeing; looking without recognizing.   This is the same defense mechanism she used when Joffrey ordered her to look at her father's head on a post.

When she next sees him, she will not know him.  Not if the rage is gone from his calm blue eyes.

"Below we see that Sansa closes her eyes because he’s close and she thinks he’s kissing her. Most close their eyes here. But the Hound misreads this." 

He misreads nothing.  Sansa is terrified.

"That Sansa was able to calm him with a song tells me that she reads him better than what he gives her credit for."

In her terror, it is the only song she can think of.  She turns to the Seven for aid, and sings a hymn.  

"...she transfers hero-status to Loras which means her view on Joff did change to a degree, though not so much as it should have." 

Her opinion on Joff has entirely changed.  She now hopes that Loras may somehow meet her ideal of a hero, and that may be wrong too.  But if are you suggesting she should abandon the ideal itself, I don't agree. 

"I think the problem seeing for Sansa will be that life isn't a song. She claims she's done with all of that, yet she still drifts off to it sometimes. A comfort zone I guess."

Are you sure Sansa is wrong?  Are you sure that, by the time the dust settles, she will not have won the argument?  Why is the word "song" part of the title to the series?   Should she really allow a bunch of cynical evil monsters and villains to dictate to her the true meaning of life?

 

 

 

 

x a lot. Carry on dude.

[Raksha 2014]

On 11/18/2018 at 9:49 AM, AliceRose said:

The second part of my post is about a more damaging influence in Sansa`s upbringing. Almost everything that Septa Mordane taught to Sansa was questionable from a modern reader point of view.

Being willful is a negative trait of character in septa's eyes, oppressing Sansa`s will, opinions and expressions is a constant in Mordane educational method. Septa is acting very unprofessional in this case, she is setting a negative comparison with Arya when Arya is not even there in the room, I have been told not to speak ill about someone who is not present. She is creating a conflict between sisters where there is absolutly no reason for it.  Septa took a very bad habit to criticize and vilify Arya at any occasion and Sansa unfortunately picked this habit too. Every time Sansa allows herself to act freely and willfully she disapproves herself and thinks that she has been as wicked as Arya. Sansa`s thinking that the incident at the Trident is all Arya's fault is direct consequence of having a mentor who is constantly saying that everything is Arya`s fault.

Sansa is often accused of being shallow and concentrating too much on the appearance, just look what king of example her septa is giving her.

As i mentioned before Septa was regularly oppressing Sansa`s personality she wanted her to be a brainless bird repeating pretty sentences.

In my opinion it is way too many times when Sansa is told to shut up. This continuous repression of Sansa's questions and opinions installed in her an alarming lack of self confidence. She thinks she is stupid and she doesn't trust her opinions even when she comes to the right conclusions.

My next idea is a bit of speculation about the deep meaning of Moradne`s central teaching "Courtesy is a Lady`s armor"

There is a side of it which is troubling me. An armor is used for protection against attacks, septa is suggesting that Sansa should use courtesy against the aggressors. It is somehow wrong, it is dening Sansa`s right to stand up for herself. Courtesy is not always the right answer. Sansa wasn`t ready to stand up for herself when Joffrey was rude with her after the fight with Arya.

And at last the most disturbing bit..

How did Sansa come to the idea that septa Mordane would want her to endure rape with a horrible monster? She was trying to subdue herself to the violence because of septa mordane, seriously? I don't think septa wanted this but it is a clear indication of what kind of harmful ideas she put in Sansa`s head.

 

I definitely agree that conflict between Sansa and Arya was intensified by Mordane's favoritism of Sansa and relentless put-downs of Arya.  I think Mordane must have resented Arya's refusal to be controlled by her.

I don't necessarily agree that Mordane's advice to Sansa that "Courtesy is a lady's armor".  For a young girl of noble birth who was as gentle as Sansa was, courtesy in all public and/or unexpected circumstances would be useful; and especially for a girl who was to be the future Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.  As it turned out, if Sansa had tried standing up for herself (any more than she did) to Joffrey after Ned's death instead of meeting his viciousness with courtesy, she would at least been physically hurt far worse than she was and at the worst been killed.  

I actually thought that Mordane's words to Sansa about looking for one attractive physical attribute of a new husband on their wedding night made good sense.  Contrary to Sansa's naive idea that she was going to marry a living Florian, her parents would have eventually given her some choices that might not have been physically flawless men, and she would have been expected to either pick one (if Ned and Catelyn could have been able to be as generous in the choice of Sansa's bridegroom as they would have liked, had Robert never come north or otherwise demanded Sansa as a bride for Joffrey).  Mordane wanted her young, romance-obsessed pupil to not dissolve into fear or loathing on her wedding night; so if the bridegroom might have had a big nose or was balding; hence the advice for Sansa to look for something attractive in the fellow.  Neither Mordane nor Sansa could have foreseen her forced marriage to an ugly dwarf with a drinking problem.  

[The Bard of Banefort]

Honestly, I always found it weird how little Sansa and Arya were prepared for life in the South, especially considering that Cat grew up in the Riverlands. No one ever warned them to be wary of trusting anyone, or how the culture and people were so different from the way they were in the North. You would think Cat and Ned would have had given them some pointers, but instead they went in blind. 

[Raksha 2014]

24 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Honestly, I always found it weird how little Sansa and Arya were prepared for life in the South, especially considering that Cat grew up in the Riverlands. No one ever warned them to be wary of trusting anyone, or how the culture and people were so different from the way they were in the North. You would think Cat and Ned would have had given them some pointers, but instead they went in blind. 

 

Exactly!  Imagine Margaery Tyrell at 11.  Do you think that she would have been allowed to view life as a song, i.e. deriving much of her worldview from the tale of Florian & Jonquil?  While the years between eleven and sixteen (when Margaery comes to court to wed Joffrey) account for much of her maturity, I would think that when Margaery was eleven, her grandmother would have noticed what a smart kid she was and started to steer her towards a greater understanding of the 7 Kingdoms and House Tyrell's place in them.  

Sansa was raised, as her mother's favorite, to yearn for the South, though it was a place she did not truly understand and, as a daughter of House Stark, did not belong.  I think Catelyn indulged Sansa's desires to be a fairy-tale Lady in the South; and there's nothing terribly wrong with that; except that Sansa was a daughter of the North and growing up in Winterfell, not Riverrun.  Ned doesn't seem to have had much to do with Sansa; Arya is definitely his favorite daughter, and he seems used to talking to her.  And yet, we know that Ned loves Sansa.  He just doesn't have that much in common with her.  I still don't understand why; after Lady is killed and Sansa is miserable, Ned refuses to talk to her because she's angry at him - who's the parent here and who's the child who is misplacing her anger?  I think Ned just could not deal with a child who was disappointed in him.  And I don't understand why Ned did not sit Sansa down and warn her of the history of the Lannisters, the family into which she was, to some extent, marrying?  Not to mention that her future father-in-law, Ned's pal Robert, had rejoiced in the murder of children and had a really bad drinking problem?  Doesn't he think it odd that Sansa still admires the Queen who ordered Lady's death?  Shouldn't Ned have at least tried to tell Sansa that things are not as they seem, and to look beneath the surface?

Why were Sansa and Arya rather spoiled compared to their brothers?  Arya thinks nothing, on the journey down South, of skipping the Queen's invitation (which is really rude, even if Cersei is obnoxious) and running off by herself with her wolf to play at swords with her new friend Mycah (which, as we know, gets Mycah and Lady killed).  Sansa gets away with keeping Jon at a distance; though she is occasionally kind to him (Jon remembers), she thinks of him as a bastard half-brother rather than a brother; and there is no recollection from any of the characters that anyone (Robb or Ned) tried to tell Sansa to be nicer to Jon.  Arya can run around underfoot and scruffy-looking, ignoring all proper etiquette, despite the fact that as the daughter of a great house, she is expected to eventually marry and know how to be hospitable to her husband's bannermen and their wives.  As a Northern girl with Winter expected, Sansa should have been taught to be a better rider and know how to shoot an arrow; as well as being taught the depths to which some supposedly noble houses can sink, rather than expect lords and ladies to be as lovely and courteous and noble as figures in a song.

The answer is complex.  One reason is that Sansa and Arya were still quite young when Robert Baratheon came to Winterfell and changed their lives forever.  Sansa was eleven and Arya only nine.  I think that Catelyn (who would have been primarily responsible for her daughters' education) thought that she would have plenty of time for her daughters to learn more of the realities of their expected future existences as wives and mothers; including a more realistic view of the world, that life was neither a song nor a playground.  I do wonder why Ned, who was a Northerner from a culture where his bannermen's daughters and his own sister had learned to ride and hunt and shoot; did not insist that both Sansa and Arya be taught more than just riding?  Possibly because he had spent much of his youth in a Southern domain (the Vale); possibly because he did not want to contradict Catelyn's curricula for her daughters' education.  

Another reason has to do with both Ned and Catelyn's experiences prior to Sansa's birth:  Both Ned and Catelyn had unanticipated responsibilities and tragedies thrust upon them at young ages.  In his late teens, Ned lost his father and brother; his head was demanded by the mad king who had killed them; and before he was 20, Ned became Lord Stark, got married, and led men into battle, then found his sister in time for her to demand a promise before she died.  And he became a father - twice - and had to lie to his barely known wife.  Catelyn lost her mother when she was a child and had to take over her mother's role as chatelaine of Riverrun and authority figure to her younger siblings - a big job for a preteen and teenager.   Then her dashing fiance was murdered and she was married off to the man's quiet younger brother who she didn't know at all, who then left her pregnant while he and her father made war on the forces of their king.  That's a lot of upheaval in the young lives of Ned and Catelyn; and it both scarred and strengthened them.  But I think their experiences made both Ned and Catelyn more desirous of prolonging the childhood of at least their daughters, to let Sansa and Arya remain little girls a little longer and lead the untroubled, sheltered lives that Ned and Catelyn would have liked to have had in their youth.  Ned's sense of duty would not allow him to pamper any of his sons; but I think he wanted to let his daughters' childhood be prolonged.  Catelyn certainly indulged Sansa's dreamy, occasionally superficial outlook and Arya's roughness and refusal to conform to etiquette.  They probably hadn't thought they even needed to think of Sansa's marrying and leaving Winterfell for at least a year or two more; since they had no intention of letting her marry before fifteen or sixteen at the earliest.  They thought they had time.  But then, as we know; time ran out on the Starks when reality, and the Baratheon-Lannister family, came to Winterfell.  To refuse the betrothal of Sansa to their king's son would have been politically and legally dangerous.  And even if Catelyn thought she would have had a few weeks to discuss How To Handle Your Bridegroom and His Lannister Relatives with Sansa; she never got the chance, due to Bran's fall and Catelyn's desperation over his condition. 

I still don't know why Ned did not contradict Catelyn's (terrible) idea of sending Arya to King's Landing with him to be refined into some sort of Southern lady.  Ned knew Arya well enough to see that Arya would hate King's Landing and did not want to be a Southern lady; and was born to be a Stark in Winterfell or at least the North.  He was already bringing one daughter with him into the lions' den; why on Westeros would he want to bring the other as well?  

[Springwatch]

13 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

I still don't know why Ned did not contradict Catelyn's (terrible) idea of sending Arya to King's Landing with him to be refined into some sort of Southern lady.  Ned knew Arya well enough to see that Arya would hate King's Landing and did not want to be a Southern lady; and was born to be a Stark in Winterfell or at least the North.  He was already bringing one daughter with him into the lions' den; why on Westeros would he want to bring the other as well?   

Unbelievable, but true: taking Arya to KL was Ned's idea, when he was at the stage of laying down the law and not listening to anybody.

Well, ok, Arya is too young to be a pawn, so might be safe from hostile players. And she does need to understand there is a game of thrones out there; she needs to prepare, she can't just opt out. But even so, she's not ready for KL; nowhere near ready.

The truly eye-poppingly awful thing he does is insist that Sansa marries Joff. The sequence of events is that Cat argues in favour of the marriage, then they find Lysa's message accusing the Lannisters of murdering Jon Arryn - and then he insists the marriage must go ahead (not just the betrothal, the marriage). He's using Sansa as bait. I don't know why Cat doesn't pick up on this.

Quote

[Ned] "Sansa must wed Joffrey, that is clear now, we must give them no grounds to suspect our devotion. And it is past time that Arya learned the ways of a southron court. In a few years, she will be of an age to marry too."

Sansa would shine in the south, Catelyn thought to herself, and the gods knew that Arya needed refinement.

[AGOT]

ETA

Just looked at the scene again - Ned's change in attitude is strange. First he says the south is a nest of adders (i.e. too dangerous for him). Then, under protest, he goes to the window to think, and comes back having switched ideas 180 degrees. He wants to take half his young family into the nest of adders.

It's been said that Ned is a bad player - and maybe that's true - but he is 100% player here: he's throwing all his pawns into action. Arya and Sansa are to be fast-tracked into marriage (even though earlier Sansa was too young to betroth). Seven year old Bran is to be brought in to to 'build bridges'. Robb is to be promoted to Winterfell's council and coached to lead by Cat. Only Rickon hasn't been given a job, though I suppose training his direwolf is challenge enough for a toddler.

Ned is not thinking like a father here; he is cold, cold, cold.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

Most readers dislike Sansa on their first read. Jaime, too. But rest assured, people who've enjoyed at least one re-read have discovered that she isn't quite as stupid as she seems. I don't think it's unique to Sansa. At all. As I said. Jaime was also viewed dimly, that is, until we come to understand his version of accounts. Catelyn got it pretty rough. IMO, Catelyn got it the worst of all the POV characters in terms of reader animosity. It peaked after ASOS. Readers were angry that The Starks were utterly defeated. And that was the precursor to the ultimate scapegoating as we tried to understand why our heroes failed. Most of us were guilty of this. 

Each character tests us in a different way. It's only when we understand their motivations that we truly know them as characters. 

Sansa has a fantastic education relative to most women in Westeros. She was just a touch naive and her enemies exploited that. But nobody told her that the world wasn't a fairy tale. Nobody told her that she would need to employ strategy. And who in seven hells explains this to an eleven year old? And do you believe Ned of all people could of educated Sansa on 'the Game'? Ned was a terrible player and it stands to reason that so too were the rest of his family. Rob's breaking of his marriage pact was a massive face-palm moment in the series. The only way Sansa could of learned or discovered politics and espionage would be from inside of KL and from her enemies. 



Also. If you like Sansa a lot. You should take a glance at this site: https://pawntoplayer.wordpress.com/

[Platypus Rex]

7 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Jaime was also viewed dimly, that is, until we come to understand his version of accounts.

For some people, all that it takes to turn a villain into a hero are a few self pitying self-justifications.  For everyone else, Jaime is still viewed dimly.

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

For some people, all that it takes to turn a villain into a hero are a few self pitying self-justifications.  For everyone else, Jaime is still viewed dimly.

I don’t think so. Jaimie Lannister imo isn’t really better than his much reviled sister-in some aspects he’s worse -but honestly I think most people upon reading his POVs and hearing how he genuinely loved and protected Tyrion(a fan favorite) came out of it thinking “he’s misunderstood” and “deep down he’s a good guy”.  Buying into woest me spills not realizing he’s still scum.  The guy tried to murder a 7 year old boy to stop him from revealing Jamie was cuckholding the king. And blamed the 7 year old. Then his sister for having finally did what he pressured her into doing by having sex at Winterfel after she repeatedly said it was really risky given they could get easily caught. And defended himself when that little fact was pointed out by Cersi by saying he was really horny. Jamie Lannister is scum. He was scum before he killed Aerys, and he still is. Hell he basically abandoned Tommen with Cersi by virtue of her “cheating” on him.  

19 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Unbelievable, but true: taking Arya to KL was Ned's idea, when he was at the stage of laying down the law and not listening to anybody.

Well, ok, Arya is too young to be a pawn, so might be safe from hostile players. And she does need to understand there is a game of thrones out there; she needs to prepare, she can't just opt out. But even so, she's not ready for KL; nowhere near ready.

The truly eye-poppingly awful thing he does is insist that Sansa marries Joff. The sequence of events is that Cat argues in favour of the marriage, then they find Lysa's message accusing the Lannisters of murdering Jon Arryn - and then he insists the marriage must go ahead (not just the betrothal, the marriage). He's using Sansa as bait. I don't know why Cat doesn't pick up on this.

Ned is not thinking like a father here; he is cold, cold, cold.

He’s thinking like a nobleman father. It’s really weird people think a man like Ned should break the mold and act like someone who wasn’t from his background and world. He has no reason to not want the marriage between Joffery Baratheon and his daughter to happen-in all honestly the boy himself hadn’t actually done anything to which Ned could posisibly see a deal breaker.

House Stark is more secure with a marriage between them and the royal family. 

He is using Sansa to achieve what should be his primary goal as a lord; te continued advancement  of his house. 

I mean it’s really not shocking he did this; I mean it goes along with what we’ve been shown  about the man.  

[Raksha 2014]

I hadn't remembered that it was Ned who insisted, after Catelyn received word from Lysa that the Lannisters arranged the death of Jon Arryn, that not only Sansa, but Arya and Bran, accompany Ned to King's Landing.  Given that Ned was already distrustful of the Lannister family whose daughter was queen and would be Sansa's eventual mother-in-law; given that his sister-in-law Lysa had just sent them a letter accusing the Lannisters of murdering her husband; the risks of bringing an eleven-year-old daughter, a nine-year-old daughter, and a seven-year-old daughter with him to a royal court far away from his own center of power, a place where he had to know that the Lannisters exerted at least some influence, Ned's decision to bring all three children is more of a dangerous gamble than a solid, lordly plan to advance his House through a strategic marriage.  Ned and Catelyn are taking Lysa's accusation seriously.  Yet Ned doesn't stop to think that if Jon Arryn, Hand of the King, Lord of the Vale, second most powerful man in Westeros, wasn't safe from the Lannisters' evil plans, his own three children aged seven through a very naive eleven, will be even more vulnerable to harm from the Lannisters?  To learn the truth about and possibly avenge the death of his foster-father, Ned is willing to bring three of his children under the influence of the family that he believes killed the man?  That's not a strategic gambit; it's an invitation to disaster.  Why not just admit he's going to give the Lannisters three potential hostages?

Perhaps Ned is thinking of his own father Rickard, who forged a formidable alliance between House Stark and three Southern Great Houses; an alliance that eventually toppled the Targaryen Dynasty.  But when Rickard fostered the young Ned out to Jon Arryn and betrothed Lyanna to Robert Baratheon and Brandon to Catelyn Tully, he was not making alliances with families who he had good reason to suspect had murdered his own foster-father; he was dealing with lords he respected.

Ned had little choice about accepting the position of Hand of the King to Robert or even accepting the betrothal of Sansa to Joffrey.  And it is probably true that he had little to object to in Joffrey during the Baratheon's stay in Winterfell; Joffrey was probably on his best behavior.  To have refused the betrothal would have not only aroused the Lannisters' suspicions, it would have been an insult that aroused the king's royal anger at House Stark.  But Ned did not have to bring any of his children with him.  He could have simply said that Sansa was still too young to leave home; and that he would send for her in a year or two when he (Ned) had proven his worth as the Hand of the King or something like that.  No one could really object to that; promising Sansa would come to King's Landing when she was thirteen instead of a childish eleven would not really arouse anyone's suspicions, not to mention leaving his nine-year-old younger daughter and seven-year-old second son at home as well.  That would have given Ned time to investigate Lysa's accusation and get a better idea of the royal court's power patterns without endangering his children.  

And why the heck would Ned want to bring Arya, who is so obviously the antithesis of a refined Southern lady, to King's Landing?  He had to know that she would be unhappy there, shut up in the Red Keep and forced to veil her independent spirit much more than if she had stayed in the North?  I don't understand why he did not send her back to Winterfell with Lady's body; when Robert would not have cared and Cersei would have been pleased; all Ned had to do was say that Catelyn, already distraught over Bran's condition, had not wanted to part with both her daughters.  

Lysa's warning of Lannister involvement in Jon Arryn's death makes it even less comprehensible that Ned did not take the time, at least a few weeks I think, after Lady's death, to talk to Sansa at length in an effort to prepare her for the dangers of King's Landing.  Ned knew what had really happened between Joffrey and Arya and Mycah and the wolves; Sansa and Arya had both told him the truth before Robert summoned Sansa to testify.  Ned saw Sansa plead memory loss, obviously terrified and saddened at being torn between Starks (her family) and Baratheons (her supposed future family since she was betrothed to one).  And he saw how his future son-in-law was a cowardly liar who would attack a scared peasant boy just to show off his own rank; and that son-in-law's Lannister mother's own bloodthirsty vindictiveness in wanting Arya punished and then Lady (who had done nothing, wasn't even there) killed and sending Clegane to slaughter the poor peasant boy who was just humoring Arya.  Worst of all, perhaps, for Ned, was seeing that his beloved friend Robert, who he had regarded as a brother, who he had trusted, just sit there and allow Cersei to posture, threaten, and kill without mercy.  He saw that Robert barely wielded his own royal power and humored Cersei out of annoyance and fatigue.   I know that Sansa was broken-hearted after Lady's death, and blamed everyone but Cersei and Joffrey (who were responsible) for it; but why didn't Ned step up as a father and take the only opportunity of time he would have with her before they entered the Red Keep and try to warn her what she could be getting into as the future bride of Joffrey and the future daughter-in-law of Cersei? 

[TheThreeEyedCow]

On 11/21/2018 at 11:12 PM, Platypus Rex said:

For some people, all that it takes to turn a villain into a hero are a few self pitying self-justifications.  For everyone else, Jaime is still viewed dimly.

Calm down. I didn't call him a hero. The accurate conclusion would be that most of the characters in this series are different shades of grey. And it's purpose was to conclude that a lot of criticism aimed as Sansa Stark was the result of people looking only to judge and not to understand. Over time, the readers have come to understand Sansa's character a little more. Not just her character, but her motivations and yes, education. The things that moulded her prior to and during the story.

Jaime wasn't only killing Bran, he was saving Cercei's, his own and the princes and princess from Robert's wroth. We see Jaime from the perspective of the honourable and dutiful Ned, Cat and Brienne. From their perspective he has no honour. But when we're allowed to see things from his point of view, we come to understand that he honours different things and different people.  And by the time we get to AFFC, we see him begin to question those allegiances and ultimately, his own identity. A redemption arc. 

Ultimately I think you are being too judgemental of characters you dislike and too sympathetic towards those you identify with. It's part of the human condition and it's a part of the story GRRM is writing. It can be difficult to understand what drove a person to do a selfish or cruel act. And many would prefer to take a puritanical approach. It's all too common.