Problematic aspects of Sansa`s education

[The Sleeper]

The issue I think is a gross miscalculation on Sansa's character on behalf of both her teacher and her parents. Because she gave them very little trouble, they believed her compliant and obedient and thus never delved any deeper and thought they would be fine with simply telling her what to do. 

There are hints that have been mentioned before about her being as willful as Arya. Which I believe is exactly the case. In Winterfell she had her own little court she lorded over which with absolute authority. Sansa's willfulness is not readily apparent because as long as she was praised and got what she wanted she went along with what people told her. The instant she didn't get what she wanted she bucked. And harder than Arya ever had. 

[Platypus Rex]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 9:04 AM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

"Calm down." 

Huh?  What?

"I didn't call him a hero."

Well, I agree with that.

"The accurate conclusion would be that most of the characters in this series are different shades of grey."

Oh, no.  Here we go again.

"Jaime wasn't only killing Bran, he was saving Cercei's, his own and the princes and princess from Robert's wroth."

Please!  Stop!  And after he all-but murdered Bran, did he repent and decide to stop doing his sister.  Did he decide that his jollies are not worth the murder of children?  No he did not!  He just kept going.

"We see Jaime from the perspective of the honourable and dutiful Ned, Cat and Brienne. From their perspective he has no honour."

They are right.

"But when we're allowed to see things from his point of view, we come to understand that he honours different things and different people.  And by the time we get to AFFC, we see him begin to question those allegiances and ultimately, his own identity. A redemption arc." 

More like a damnation arc, I'll wager.

"Ultimately I think you are being too judgemental of characters you dislike and too sympathetic towards those you identify with."

How judgmental of you.

"It's part of the human condition and it's a part of the story GRRM is writing. It can be difficult to understand what drove a person to do a selfish or cruel act. And many would prefer to take a puritanical approach. It's all too common."

So now I'm a "puritan" because I frown on child murder?  The meaning of words has changed.

[Bea Noleto]

Septa Mordane is, uh, a septa. Her horrible teachings are basically what a septa is supposed to teach to a typical southron lady who is supposed to obey her father, then her husband; please everyone; give birth; raise children and otherwise be quiet. That part is inherent to the system.

The other part, the thing that stand out about Mordane,  is the vilifying of Arya, and the cruel game she plays at pitting one sister against the other. You'd think that even if your charge's performance is abysmal, a septa shouldn't punish them too much or it would turn against them.  The fact that she gets away with it shows that Catelyn (let's not kid ourselves, the Starks divided the education of their children by gender) neglected the education of both sisters, and Arya had not a voice able to complain about the verbal abuse she was suffering.

However, that accounts for Sansa thinking of Arya as an annoying rude brat who doesn't suck up to her as she should, but doesn't explain how can she blame her 9 year old little sister and her dead friend for all the violence and death that happened at the Trident, while exonerating the adults and Joffrey.

Nor why she would trust the woman who ordered the killing of her completely innocent pet, saying that she wanted to wear her pelt. (The pet who is a symbol of her house, by the way.) She was only a kid, only 11, but what kid trusts someone who kills their pet?

Nor why would she want so bad to marry Joffrey. If she was delluding herself to endure the marriage with a dangerous boy, shouldn't she feel relieved that she won't anymore, or at least obey her father as she was told to? Why cling to a fantasy that she used to protect herself  to go against her father and put herself in the dangerous position that she was trying to protect  herself from in the first place? That doesn't make sense as a coping mechanism.

About the Stark kids' sense of entitlement, she is the only one who uses it against her own family. Arya fought her colleagues in her trip north because of her anger for her father's death, and because they took her Needle, who symbolises Jon.

Jon felt superior to his fellows at the Night's Watch and he was taking out on them, but that is because he was directing to them the rejection he felt when he realised that he was dumped there by his father, that he was not a member of the family. As he couldn't bring himself to blame Ned and accept his condition, he was angrily stating that he was somewhat a Stark, and that was supposed to mean he was superior to others. 

Robb said hurtful things to Theon, but he was still in shock because Bran could have died or got hurt. He did some very stupid things  without considering the consequences, but they were meant to honor the values that he believed his father had, and to protect any kid he might have because he didn't want anyone to suffer what Jon did.

(Bran is a case of greenseer entitlement and little boy who lost his legs at 7 and his family at 8).

They were  insensitive about others, but the other was not family, and they acted in favor of the family, because of the love they felt.

I think that Sansa was used as a plot device and the whole 'spoiled, sheltered, naive' girl was just the excuse.

It should be that she witnessed Joffrey being cruel to common people, but not Mycah, and she didn't care. Then he lied a little lie and she didn't care, then he made herself lie and she didn't care. Then he was saying cruel things about Arya behind her back, then they were both making fun of her little sister behind her back, then they were mocking her to her face.

Then he showed himself to be violent to people that didn't matter too much, and she didn't care either. And so on. The same with Cersei, they should have been slowly getting closer and Cersei would extract valuable information without Sansa even being aware that she was giving anything up. Then she would realize that they used her against the Starks. Her lesson would be that it is important to watch closely how the 'others' are treated, because one day you might be the other. That would be tragic and in line with that characterization.

It should be a slippery slope, not a sudden and direct confrontation between strangers and her family.  But GRRM needed to get rid of the direwolves  and have the girls in KL without their magical animal protection; he also needed to speed up the conflict between the Starks and Lannisters, and the rift among the Starks,  because he wouldn't tell the story over several in-world  years anymore, and that is the solution he came up with.

Or he could make her completely selfish, a girl who only cares about being the Queen and nothing else, using her Stark and Lannister connections to get what she wanted, playing dumb with both sides, but actually manipulating them. That would be interesting.

[Bea Noleto]

On 11/24/2018 at 3:51 PM, Platypus Rex said:

Huh?  What?

"I didn't call him a hero."

Well, I agree with that.

"The accurate conclusion would be that most of the characters in this series are different shades of grey."

Oh, no.  Here we go again.

"Jaime wasn't only killing Bran, he was saving Cercei's, his own and the princes and princess from Robert's wroth."

Please!  Stop!  And after he all-but murdered Bran, did he repent and decide to stop doing his sister.  Did he decide that his jollies are not worth the murder of children?  No he did not!  He just kept going.

"We see Jaime from the perspective of the honourable and dutiful Ned, Cat and Brienne. From their perspective he has no honour."

They are right.

"But when we're allowed to see things from his point of view, we come to understand that he honours different things and different people.  And by the time we get to AFFC, we see him begin to question those allegiances and ultimately, his own identity. A redemption arc." 

More like a damnation arc, I'll wager.

"Ultimately I think you are being too judgemental of characters you dislike and too sympathetic towards those you identify with."

How judgmental of you.

"It's part of the human condition and it's a part of the story GRRM is writing. It can be difficult to understand what drove a person to do a selfish or cruel act. And many would prefer to take a puritanical approach. It's all too common."

So now I'm a "puritan" because I frown on child murder?  The meaning of words has changed.

Jaime's fans downplay the pushing of Bran, what Jaime said himself that he would do to Arya if he found her without any hint of remorse, and emphasize he putting himself in danger for Brienne. And the punishment of the guy who raped what's-her-name-starting with P. 

I think it is because of  his speech of being impossible to completely hold to honor in that world and that you would always be someone's villain is so nice, so true. But it is a bummer that this guy, instead of being just a misunderstood hero decided to actually be a villain who is willing to murder children.

So they put all the blame on Cersei, who is undoubtely evil anyway. His swordhand who commited his sins was cut off, so he was punished for what he did. 

Then he let Cersei to her own devices, and he is redeemed, because he got rid of her evil influence that made he do those things in the first place.

[Angel Eyes]

Sansa should have at least be taught how to use a knife for defense; her mother knows how to use one as shown in the Mountain Clans attack. Heck, Arya can use a knife and she’s 2-3 years Sansa’s junior.

50 minutes ago, Bea Noleto said:

Jaime's fans downplay the pushing of Bran, what Jaime said himself that he would do to Arya if he found her without any hint of remorse, and emphasize he putting himself in danger for Brienne. And the punishment of the guy who raped what's-her-name-starting with P. 

I think it is because of  his speech of being impossible to completely hold to honor in that world and that you would always be someone's villain is so nice, so true. But it is a bummer that this guy, instead of being just a misunderstood hero decided to actually be a villain who is willing to murder children.

So they put all the blame on Cersei, who is undoubtely evil anyway. His swordhand who commited his sins was cut off, so he was punished for what he did. 

Then he let Cersei to her own devices, and he is redeemed, because he got rid of her evil influence that made he do those things in the first place.

To be fair, Cersei is a rather toxic influence, if Jaime, Joffrey and Lancel are any indication.

[Platypus Rex]

9 hours ago, Bea Noleto said:

"But it is a bummer that this guy, instead of being just a misunderstood hero decided to actually be a villain who is willing to murder children."

Yes.

"So they put all the blame on Cersei, who is undoubtely evil anyway. His swordhand who commited his sins was cut off, so he was punished for what he did." 

The loss of his sword-hand COULD have been an occasion for repentance.  But it wasn't.  He rejects repentance, because the Seven will not give him a new hand.  Implicitly, he has offered his services to any dark demon who offers him a new hand.   This is pretty grim foreshadowing.  

"Then he let Cersei to her own devices, and he is redeemed, because he got rid of her evil influence that made he do those things in the first place."

Right, Except that there is no repentance or humility in his rejection of Cersei.  His ego is bruised by her lack of faithfulness to HIM.  His mantra is "Lancel and Kettleback and Moonboy for all I know."

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Right, Except that there is no repentance or humility in his rejection of Cersei.  His ego is bruised by her lack of faithfulness to HIM.  His mantra is "Lancel and Kettleback and Moonboy for all I know."

He doesn’t even think once about Tommen. His last son and the king he had sworn himself to. The boy he said he would protect may be in danger and all he’s thinking about is how Cersi slept with other men while he was a captive of the Starks. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Isn't this topic supposed to be about Sansa's education, not about Cersei and Jaime?

 

[Dukhasinov]

On 11/17/2018 at 7:47 PM, AliceRose said:

 

Well that's was a long introduction. I will try to give you my answer to the question which traits of Sansa`s character are so unbearable for many of us.. Sansa`s education was questionable on so many levels that I wonder how did she manage to come up as a decent human being. I will stop talking too much and just bring to your attention problematic aspects of Sansa`s life.

There are two main issues with Sansa`s upbringing: total neglect from her parents and awful influence from an ignorant, incompetent, misogynistic teacher. Both factors are equally allarming.

Sansa is a teenage girl raised on wealth and privilege. OF COURSE she`s obnoxious. It`s made even worse when you have to hear her inner monologue. If you`ve ever met a Massachusetts "Old Money" type debutante, the only reason that they`re at all bearable to be around is the fact that you can`t hear what they`re thinking. With Sansa, we`re hit with the full broadside of her vapid, self-absorbed snobbery. That being said, you have to see Sansa as what she is, and keep in mind that it isn`t her fault. It`s fascinating to watch her grow up the hard way as the circumstances of her life giver her one brutal lesson after another.

[Angel Eyes]

On 11/27/2018 at 9:56 PM, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Isn't this topic supposed to be about Sansa's education, not about Cersei and Jaime?

 

I assume it’s because Cersei was in the same situation as Sansa: Highborn girls whose fathers were Hand of the King and had dreams of becoming Queen, only to have those dreams brutally torn down. 

[Springwatch]

On 11/27/2018 at 1:39 PM, Bea Noleto said:

Septa Mordane is, uh, a septa. Her horrible teachings...

<snip>

Wow. I'll just tackle a bit of this...

On 11/27/2018 at 1:39 PM, Bea Noleto said:

However, that accounts for Sansa thinking of Arya as an annoying rude brat who doesn't suck up to her as she should,

I don't recall this. She says Arya would have to call her 'Your Grace' when she became queen (i.e. in the future). And she thinks that Arya always ruins everything - whatever that means. It means something.

On 11/27/2018 at 1:39 PM, Bea Noleto said:

but doesn't explain how can she blame her 9 year old little sister and her dead friend for all the violence and death that happened at the Trident, while exonerating the adults and Joffrey.

That's no mystery, it's a logical error, like this:

• Event A is followed by Event B.
• Therefore, Event B was caused by Event A.

and then

• Person A caused Event A.
• Therefore, Person A caused Event B.

[This is the same logic used constantly against Sansa on the forum - which is a cosmic irony, I suppose.]

So, from Sansa's POV, Arya was being a Bad Girl when she skipped off to play swords instead of going to the queen's tea party. Actually, a Very Bad Girl, simultaneously going against her sister, her septa, her lord father, and her queen. Disobedience was followed by disaster, and so, and so, if only Arya had gone to the wretched party, none of this would have happened....

But I think Ned is the most guilty in Sansa's eyes. He personally killed Lady when he should have defended her, and I don't think Sansa ever came to terms with that. Her world has gone crazy, and she assigns blame at random because the truth is unthinkable.

[Springwatch]

On 11/18/2018 at 7:39 PM, The hairy bear said:

Platypus Rex and Bernie Max make excellent points.

The "examples of bad education" you brought up are examples of good teaching, if you ask me.

• It was not in Sansa's place to question her father. He is the Hand of the King, and she is an eleven year old. Moreover, it was terribly inappropriate to do so loudly and in a place where anyone could hear her.
• It was foolish chatter. Sansa was criticizing his father for not favoring young good-looking men. A member of the small council had overheard it. Doubly foolish.
• A lady does not discuss about severed heads at dinner. It's not a polite thing to do, even by our standards.
• Her father knew best, and she was not to question her decisions. If she had listened to septa Mordane's good advice, she may have saved herself (and Arya) a lot of trouble and pain.
• Courtesy is a lady's armor. It has worked for Sansa multiple times. Trying to appear lovely and innocent saved her multiple times. She has avoided rape from Joffrey, Tyrion, Marillion.
• All men are beautiful. This is a great, nice, goodhearted lesson to teach. It intends to transmit that people should not be judged by their looks. How this can be disconstructed and presented as an apology of rape, is beyond me.

Well, yes, I agree. The septa is a snob, and biased, and disagreeable - and neither young nor beautiful - so it's not often someone picks up on her good points. Here's a few more:

• She drank Sansa's wine!  at the tourney feast, when Sansa was being wined and dined by wicked Joffrey. Somehow Sansa never became drunk, though her cup was constantly being refilled.
• Mordane was correct to criticize the Stark men for looking bedraggled in the tourney. She was right, and Ned was wrong to allow this: the jousting should have been a show of strength. Jory's shabby appearance highlighted Ned's carelessness on defensive matters. For everyone to see.
• Mordane is equally sharp to Sansa as to Arya when she is 'willful'.
• It's quite surprising that Arya ever turned up at needlework lessons, or cared how well she did. That's a partial achievement for a teacher. And Arya thought Sansa had been taught to a very high standard, that's another plus. (Though I think Arya might have an exaggerated idea of Sansa's skill - I mean, how is she to know?)

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

 

• She drank Sansa's wine!  at the tourney feast, when Sansa was being wined and dined by wicked Joffrey. Somehow Sansa never became drunk, though her cup was constantly being refilled.

So she’s a drunk who steals liquor from children? Jk. But seriously, probably best to keep Sansa from drinking too much alcohol. 

[Raksha 2014]

14 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I assume it’s because Cersei was in the same situation as Sansa: Highborn girls whose fathers were Hand of the King and had dreams of becoming Queen, only to have those dreams brutally torn down. 

Except that only one of them had to watch their father being executed, endure cruelty and humiliation and abuse as a hostage in the hands of those who killed them, and be coerced into marriage with the most physically grotesque member of the family that held her hostage.  That was Sansa.  Cersei did get to be Queen; while indulging her love for her brother; so she was having her cake - the rank and prestige of being Queen - while 'eating it' by continuing her forbidden and actually treasonous affair with Jaime.  

It will be interesting to see if Sansa grows up to be Cersei Lite, or a more practical and savvy Sansa Stark.  (that is, if the books are ever finished and Sansa actually lives past the age of 16 or 17.

 

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, Raksha 2014 said:

Except that only one of them had to watch their father being executed, endure cruelty and humiliation and abuse as a hostage in the hands of those who killed them, and be coerced into marriage with the most physically grotesque member of the family that held her hostage.  That was Sansa.  Cersei did get to be Queen; while indulging her love for her brother; so she was having her cake - the rank and prestige of being Queen - while 'eating it' by continuing her forbidden and actually treasonous affair with Jaime.  

It will be interesting to see if Sansa grows up to be Cersei Lite, or a more practical and savvy Sansa Stark.  (that is, if the books are ever finished and Sansa actually lives past the age of 16 or 17.

 

To be honest, I don’t want Sansa to become like Cersei. We already got one evil Queen, we don’t need two. 

[Springwatch]

Another positive for Septa Mordane:

Quote

"You realize I had half my guard out searching for you?" Eddard Stark said when they were alone. "Septa Mordane is beside herself with fear. She's in the sept praying for your safe return. Arya, you know you are never to go beyond the castle gates without my leave."

[AGOT]

 

[Angel Eyes]

9 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Another positive for Septa Mordane:

 

Septa Mordane's not much of a guardian for the girls. Ned should have had a sworn shield for both, or at least Sansa.

[Springwatch]

22 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Septa Mordane's not much of a guardian for the girls. Ned should have had a sworn shield for both, or at least Sansa.

Definitely yes. Why did Mordane and Sansa have no escort to protect them returning from the tourney feast? A woman and a girl, walking home late and in the dark, in a place where a lot of soldiers and strangers have just been having a huge party. Crazy.

[Nevets]

22 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Septa Mordane's not much of a guardian for the girls. Ned should have had a sworn shield for both, or at least Sansa.

 

19 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Definitely yes. Why did Mordane and Sansa have no escort to protect them returning from the tourney feast? A woman and a girl, walking home late and in the dark, in a place where a lot of soldiers and strangers have just been having a huge party. Crazy.

I'm not sure why they would need a sworn shield.  They probably aren't going to go out that much, and KL, and especially the Red Keep, appear to be relatively safe places at this time in the story.  If they need an armed escort, Jory or one of his men can easily be detailed to accompany them.

Given that Jofrey is Crown Prince, he is more likely to be out in public, so having someone permanently detailed to his protection makes sense.  For the Stark girls, not so much.

[Springwatch]

11 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I'm not sure why they would need a sworn shield.  They probably aren't going to go out that much, and KL, and especially the Red Keep, appear to be relatively safe places at this time in the story.  If they need an armed escort, Jory or one of his men can easily be detailed to accompany them.

Given that Jofrey is Crown Prince, he is more likely to be out in public, so having someone permanently detailed to his protection makes sense.  For the Stark girls, not so much.

Being guarded at all times would be over the top. But not being guarded at all, even when they need it?

It feels a bit odd that Sansa and Mordane were so isolated from their own people. This was the Hand's Tourney - the northerners should have been honoured guests, present in great numbers.

Plot device, I guess.