Problematic aspects of Sansa`s education

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 12/1/2018 at 5:43 AM, Springwatch said:

Another positive for Septa Mordane:

 

It really does show Mordane isn’t really a bad woman. She’s just a by product of her culture  and a relatively inconsequential cog in the system. It’s nice Martin seemingly wanted to give this character some nuance instead of just being some nagging old shrew, who oppresses free thinking, girls like Arya because she’s just awful.  To which he could have perfectly encomplized by never having her shown genuine care for the Stark girls.

[AliceRose]

On 11/27/2018 at 2:39 PM, Bea Noleto said:

However, that accounts for Sansa thinking of Arya as an annoying rude brat who doesn't suck up to her as she should, but doesn't explain how can she blame her 9 year old little sister and her dead friend for all the violence and death that happened at the Trident, while exonerating the adults and Joffrey.

This is a very important question and and have many different answers that might clarify Sansa's reasoning. 

First of all let's difine death and violence. Violence for us and violence for 11 years old Sansa is not the same thing. The is an interesting quote from her thoughts:

Sansa had wept too, the first day. Even within the stout walls of Maegor’s Holdfast, with her door closed and barred, it was hard not to be terrified when the killing began. She had grown up to the sound of steel in the yard, and scarcely a day of her life had passed without hearing the clash of sword on sword, yet somehow knowing that the fighting was real made all the difference in the world. She heard it as she had never heard it before, and there were other sounds as well, grunts of pain, angry curses, shouts for help, and the moans of wounded and dying men. In the songs, the knights never screamed nor begged for mercy.

Joffrey was abusive and violent with Micah, but Sansa was too used to the boys playing that she failed to realize the danger. She had never seen real violence before she didn't even know it exists. Sansa was blind to the existence of pain, suffering and death. She didn't understand at all how bad the things were. She recognise that later on when she speaks with Tirells cusins, they are just silly little girls. She was not conscious about what is going on, she was extremely confused and looking for a traditional answer that would fit in her word( It is all Arya fault )

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Nor why would she want so bad to marry Joffrey. If she was delluding herself to endure the marriage with a dangerous boy, shouldn't she feel relieved that she won't anymore, or at least obey her father as she was told to? Why cling to a fantasy that she used to protect herself  to go against her father and put herself in the dangerous position that she was trying to protect  herself from in the first place? That doesn't make sense as a coping mechanism

Immediately after Lady's death Sansa decides that she hates Joffrey and the Queen but at that stage another problem cames in. Sansa is pathologicaly insecure, she doesn't trust her own jugement, even when she comes to the right conclusions she doesn't value her own opinions and instincts. 

The engagement was still on, every one was acting normal and Sansa thought that she was mistaken about Joffrey.

[Lucia Targaryen]

Both Cat and Ned didn't really prepare any of their children (including Jon) for the real world, which is odd considering that they both knew of the worlds harsh realities. You can see this in Jon's early belief in the Night's Watch as this sacred brotherhood when it's really a penal colony, Bran's fanciful beliefs about knighthood and of course Sansa being obsessed with songs about noble princes and love.

It seems like Cat and Ned were more focused on creating a bubble than anything else. Understandably but not really helpful. 

[mshadows]

Reading everyone's responses I've noticed something missing. Arya had Jon and Robb to help in her scheme's, and help her broaden her thinking. Sansa it seems to me anyway was loved by her brothers but never included in their antics and pranks. Sansa is left to her own devices with the Septa and her friends, excluded but not ignored. The Starks failed all their children as parents but especially Sansa. The Other children had each other to help broaden the Views but Sansa was not in their group. 

 

In looking to give their children a love filled life they forgot to teach them about the harsh reality

[Rose of Red Lake]

Her parents did not prepare her well for life as a queen consort, but I think that is intentional because if they did, she wouldn't have had to learn these things herself.

Ned wanted to use Sansa's betrothal to Joffrey as a cover so that the Lannisters didn't suspect anything. They teach her nothing about life in the south or what her duties as queen will be. Cersei gives her more of an education than they do.

Sansa does try to model herself after her family members. She tries to be brave like Robb when she has to face the Lannisters at Joffrey's wedding. And she tries to be "bastard brave" like Mya and Jon. I also dont see any problem in drawing courage from stories and songs when she's in a difficult spot.

Her debate over Baelor with Tyrion and Oberyn is interesting. She seems to have been taught the "great man" view of history, like school kids learn about historical figures. I think she has a good basis in history though and now that she is growing up she can see how a lot of it was an illusion. However, history is also carried through the songs and that's definitely one way to understand it. I would say that she is the most historically knowledgeable character, next to Tyrion. Finally, Sansa knows her sigils while Arya has trouble remembering them. 

I think Sansa has a lot of traits of the typical heroes journey but most people don't recognize it because it's a journey to her as the endgame queen consort. 

[Angel Eyes]

On 1/3/2019 at 2:32 PM, EvanSol919 said:

Both Cat and Ned didn't really prepare any of their children (including Jon) for the real world, which is odd considering that they both knew of the worlds harsh realities. You can see this in Jon's early belief in the Night's Watch as this sacred brotherhood when it's really a penal colony, Bran's fanciful beliefs about knighthood and of course Sansa being obsessed with songs about noble princes and love.

It seems like Cat and Ned were more focused on creating a bubble than anything else. Understandably but not really helpful. 

On the Jon point, I wonder what Ned was going to do with Jon. Did he ever intend for him to go the the Wall? Rule a holdfast with a wife and children of his own? 

Though I think Ned is a lot better parent than Tywin Lannister. Would Ned ever think of having a girl of 13 gang-raped because she was lowborn and married his son?

[Angel Eyes]

On 12/2/2018 at 4:32 PM, Nevets said:

 

I'm not sure why they would need a sworn shield.  They probably aren't going to go out that much, and KL, and especially the Red Keep, appear to be relatively safe places at this time in the story.  If they need an armed escort, Jory or one of his men can easily be detailed to accompany them.

Given that Jofrey is Crown Prince, he is more likely to be out in public, so having someone permanently detailed to his protection makes sense.  For the Stark girls, not so much.

Sansa was betrothed to the Crown Prince (which I think was a stupid idea) and daughter to the Hand of the King. Isn’t her safety important? The Stark guards can’t fight for shit, since they were slaughtered to a man when Ned was arrested.

[DominusNovus]

I think this discussion really serves to demonstrate just how alien Westerosi and pre-industrial values are to us, even if they are entirely valid in their context. Yes, Ned and Cat likely could have done a better job with their children, but they likely did not expect to have to prepre their children for life in KL. I always had the impression they expected their children to marry into northern (maybe riverlander) families, and did their best to prepare their children for that: dealing with social inferiors that depended on their favor, rather than equals and superiors that would take advantage of them.

Imagine if Sansa had been betrothed to a Manderly or Karstark (hell, even Domeric Bolton) and imagine how her upbringing - incomplete as it was - would have served her in White Harbor or Karhold. I would imagine she would have handled that perfectly.

[zandru]

On 1/24/2019 at 1:24 PM, mshadows said:

Reading everyone's responses I've noticed something missing. Arya had Jon and Robb to help in her scheme's, and help her broaden her thinking. Sansa it seems to me anyway was loved by her brothers but never included in their antics and pranks. Sansa is left to her own devices with the Septa and her friends,

Now, now. Sansa scorned Arya and her boyish ways, and her brothers were, well, BOYS. Sansa was the Little Lady, and interested only in lady-like pursuits. Hair, fashion, formal manners, fancy needlework. She wasn't "included" because she didn't want to be, and criticized Arya for running with the boys. Many times. Sansa limited herself to her little posse and her septa because those were the companionship and lessons she valued.

4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Sansa was betrothed to the Crown Prince (which I think was a stupid idea) and daughter to the Hand of the King. Isn’t her safety important? The Stark guards can’t fight for shit, since they were slaughtered to a man when Ned was arrested.

The Stark guards were outnumbered maybe 100 to 1 and surrounded. Maybe you should take that into account.

There's a lot of criticism of Ned and Cat failing to prepare Sansa for life in the big city. You forget that Ned left King's Landing as soon as he could after Robert's victory, in disgust. Ned couldn't accept southron duplicity, scheming, backstabbing, court politics; a place where "words were wind" and not a man's sacred bond. He went home to the North where honesty, loyalty up and down the chain of command, and honor ruled. He had assumed this would be the environment his children would live in, and wanted them suited for it. Lady Cat was all for Seven-worship and courtly manners; well, there's nothing wrong with good manners, but you can be assured that Cat and Septa Moraine did NOT each Sansa how manners were one of the best disguises for all the lying and backstabbing.

While continuing to harp on Lord Eddard's "stupidity", we should not forget that his surviving male children and Arya still hold with Ned's lessons in duty, honor, responsibility, family. On the other hand, y'all may consider them to thus be "stupid" as well, but I strongly disagree.

 

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Now, now. Sansa scorned Arya and her boyish ways, and her brothers were, well, BOYS. Sansa was the Little Lady, and interested only in lady-like pursuits. Hair, fashion, formal manners, fancy needlework. She wasn't "included" because she didn't want to be, and criticized Arya for running with the boys. Many times. Sansa limited herself to her little posse and her septa because those were the companionship and lessons she valued.

The Stark guards were outnumbered maybe 100 to 1 and surrounded. Maybe you should take that into account.

There's a lot of criticism of Ned and Cat failing to prepare Sansa for life in the big city. You forget that Ned left King's Landing as soon as he could after Robert's victory, in disgust. Ned couldn't accept southron duplicity, scheming, backstabbing, court politics; a place where "words were wind" and not a man's sacred bond. He went home to the North where honesty, loyalty up and down the chain of command, and honor ruled. He had assumed this would be the environment his children would live in, and wanted them suited for it. Lady Cat was all for Seven-worship and courtly manners; well, there's nothing wrong with good manners, but you can be assured that Cat and Septa Moraine did NOT each Sansa how manners were one of the best disguises for all the lying and backstabbing.

While continuing to harp on Lord Eddard's "stupidity", we should not forget that his surviving male children and Arya still hold with Ned's lessons in duty, honor, responsibility, family. On the other hand, y'all may consider them to thus be "stupid" as well, but I strongly disagree.

 

Well, didn’t Ned know full well the treachery the Lannisters were capable of? He bore witness to the Sack of King’s Landing.

As far as Sansa’s relationship with Arya, it leaves a lot to be desired. What girl would be allowed to say that her sister’s head should be on a spike?

[Bernie Mac]

6 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, didn’t Ned know full well the treachery the Lannisters were capable of? He bore witness to the Sack of King’s Landing.

He has no reason to suspect that Robert would allow that to happen, by the time Robert was dead he thought he countered the Lannister strength with the help of Littlefinger.

He expected treachery from the Lannisters, just not from Littlefinger.

6 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

As far as Sansa’s relationship with Arya, it leaves a lot to be desired. What girl would be allowed to say that her sister’s head should be on a spike?

Young sibling's frequently wish each other dead, it's a figure of speech. 

[HexMachina]

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He went home to the North where honesty, loyalty up and down the chain of command, and honor ruled

Ah, the Northern superiority myth rears its head once more

[Angel Eyes]

13 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He has no reason to suspect that Robert would allow that to happen, by the time Robert was dead he thought he countered the Lannister strength with the help of Littlefinger.

He expected treachery from the Lannisters, just not from Littlefinger.

Even so with Littlefinger. His wife's former childhood friend who got severe injuries from his brother and likely wants revenge for Ned "taking" Catelyn away from him? He had no reason to trust Littlefinger.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Even so with Littlefinger. His wife's former childhood friend who got severe injuries from his brother and likely wants revenge for Ned "taking" Catelyn away from him? He had no reason to trust Littlefinger.

Well that only tells part of the story; Cat insists that he's trustworthy, he kept her arrival in the city a secret and has assisted Ned with his 'detective' work and his friend and mentor, John Arryn, trusted Littlefinger enough to appoint him to the Small Council. 

The case for trusting Littlefinger, from Ned's perspective, is pretty even but unfortunately, with Robert on his deathbed, he's out of time and out of options. 

[Angel Eyes]

18 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well that only tells part of the story; Cat insists that he's trustworthy, he kept her arrival in the city a secret and has assisted Ned with his 'detective' work and his friend and mentor, John Arryn, trusted Littlefinger enough to appoint him to the Small Council. 

The case for trusting Littlefinger, from Ned's perspective, is pretty even but unfortunately, with Robert on his deathbed, he's out of time and out of options. 

True, he was out of options and time. 

 

[DominusNovus]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well that only tells part of the story; Cat insists that he's trustworthy, he kept her arrival in the city a secret and has assisted Ned with his 'detective' work and his friend and mentor, John Arryn, trusted Littlefinger enough to appoint him to the Small Council. 

The case for trusting Littlefinger, from Ned's perspective, is pretty even but unfortunately, with Robert on his deathbed, he's out of time and out of options. 

Plus I think Cat's judgement that Littlefinger must have moved on since then is sound, since there's no reason to assume he's a sociopath that is nursing grudges and crushes from 2 decades prior. Lets see.. I can't even remember the people I had grudges against back then, and only remember maybe one crush from that time, and I'm just a little older than he is in the books.

[AliceRose]

On 1/27/2019 at 4:16 AM, Bernie Mac said:

He has no reason to suspect that Robert would allow that to happen, by the time Robert was dead he thought he countered the Lannister strength with the help of Littlefinger.

He expected treachery from the Lannisters, just not from Littlefinger.

And yet he did suspect that Lannisters killed Jon Arryn and that they tried to kill Bran, and he suspected them doing it when Robert was fully alive.. But this topic isn't about Ned.

[Nagini's Neville]

On 18. November 2018 at 8:39 PM, The hairy bear said:

All men are beautiful. This is a great, nice, goodhearted lesson to teach. It intends to transmit that people should not be judged by their looks. How this can be disconstructed and presented as an apology of rape, is beyond me.

Well, it is a little bit. It does say specifically men, doesn't it? And Sansa is thinking about it during her wedding night with Tyrion so that gives us some hints in which context the Septa might have taught Sansa that lesson. Also most of her education does go back to marriage anyway. It is all in the end connected to becoming the perfect wife. So it wouldn't be weird to assume, this motto is specifically about Sansa's future husband as well. Especially when we see Septa M's "acceptance" of all humans and finding something beautiful in all humans first hand with Arya. 

It definitely contributes to the rape culture via marriage existing Westeros. It is definitely a motto, that should make her more obedient and accepting of whoever husband her father will chose for her. But you could also see it as Septa M just wanting to offer Sansa some psychological help, when she ultimately perhaps would have to have sex against her will with someone she won't find attractive.

And then it is something that is known to have been taught to girls throughout history to be more accepted of an arranged marriage and of whatever husband their father has chosen for them.

For example Beauty and the Beast/ La Belle et la Bête was intended for this purpose in the 18th century. "you have been kidnapped away from your father and now have to live with a beast. But don't give up, try to find his inner beauty and he will turn into a prince."

You could interpret it as a "help" to make young girls cope with arranged marriages, but it definitely also doesn't make them question or rebel against the status quo, but to accept the situation and be obedient

[sweetsunray]

On 1/24/2019 at 9:24 PM, mshadows said:

Reading everyone's responses I've noticed something missing. Arya had Jon and Robb to help in her scheme's, and help her broaden her thinking. Sansa it seems to me anyway was loved by her brothers but never included in their antics and pranks.

Actually, the kids did include Sansa in their games. IIRC Arya remembers a moment when they were all playing in the crypts, with Jon I believe having whitened his face to look a ghost and scare Arya and Sansa.

[The hairy bear]

 

@Nagini's Neville

Eddard and Catelyn are fairly progressive parents in relation to their environment. They allow a certain freedom to Arya to pursue her non-girlish interests, they allow the bastard to be raised with the rest of the kids, they promote religious tolerance, Eddard takes her wife's council and respects her opinion, etc.

If your point is that this is not enough and that they should become fully dedicated champions of proper gender equality and devote all their efforts to to fight for the women's status in their society, I can hardly debate with it. But how can we blame Cat an Ned to transmit to their children their values instead of ours?

I think that in the context of the world they live, they are great parents. Everything else doesn't really matters when discussing the particulars of Sansa's education. It's only relevant when discussing the Westerosi society as a whole.