[SPOILERS] The Sons of the Dragon (extended version)

[Lord Varys]

This would be for Aenys and Maegor and the Conqueror's grandchildren - especially the great and adoring Princess Rhaena. I say she is George's best and most nuanced female character. And she is a great Targaryen, too ;-).

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Why do you think she is the best? 

[Lord Varys]

Because she actually gets a biography. We are with her from childhood to old age, and really see her grow and change, see how her life affects her, how what she does and sees and is forced to go through affects and shapes her characters, causing her to make mistakes, causing her to behave like any human being would - or might - in her situation.

She is shy and strong, fearful and courageous, cruel and wise, cold as ice and hot as fire. 

Trust me, she has one of the greatest moments in that book, one you have to read the connected footnote to really savor ;-). And she also sets the tone for what it means to be 'a mad Targaryen', while not actually being a prancing fool like Rhaegel or paranoid lunatic like Aerys II.

She is also gay, but that's some funny little detail.

For her alone it is worth to read that book. I really love that character. Alysanne is great, too, but as Rhaena herself puts it (she is Visenya, Alysanne is Rhaenys). Her opinion, not necessarily true, but a great line still...

[Corvinus85]

Since I'm not that far into the book (currently reading about Jaeherys I), and I've started in order, the only thing I can discuss is Aegon's conquest and his sons.

So on Maegor's death, what are the theories? I know the speculations written in the book, but if there are clues somewhere that puts one of these speculations ahead, I've missed them.

[Lord Varys]

There is another speculation added and repeated later that Queen Rhaena somehow arranged the murder of her uncle-husband, although there is no proof or theory about how she would have done that. Probably just misogyny doing its work, but if true it would really be cool.

[Paxter Redwyne]

On 11/20/2018 at 2:59 AM, Lord Varys said:

She is also gay, but that's some funny little detail.

Is there any excerpt from the book that heavily implies this? I haven't noticed it while reading. In Middle Ages nobles often slept in same bed with their friends.

[Jaak]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is another speculation added and repeated later that Queen Rhaena somehow arranged the murder of her uncle-husband, although there is no proof or theory about how she would have done that. Probably just misogyny doing its work, but if true it would really be cool.

Which is somewhat absurd... as is her later claim to have brought a knife to stab him at wedding night.

She stole a Valyrian sword from his sleeping body, and successfully got away herself, Aerea and Dreamfyre.

If she was inclined to do so, it would have been easy, and manifestly useful, to use the Valyrian sword for a quick slash (easier than ordinary steel sword!) and pack up his head as well. If she did not, probably she did not want to.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Is there any excerpt from the book that heavily implies this? I haven't noticed it while reading. In Middle Ages nobles often slept in same bed with their friends.

Lady Elissa is at one point called her 'true love'. It is all pretty obvious. Rhaena never has any male favorites. Only girls and women. She never encourages male suitors, either. And the unseemly affection and favors she shows her favorites from the first causes unspecified rumors - rumors Queen Alyssa doesn't want to see spread about Alysanne which is why he dismissed her companions and ladies on a regular basis.

Even the first favorite of Rhaena's - her cousin Larissa Velaryon - is an interesting case considering that she is suddenly recalled to Driftmark to marry the second son of the Evenstar. This seems to have been an unplanned wedding, possibly hastily arranged because the relationship between Rhaena and Larissa had become court gossip.

And this is exactly how female homosexuality would be remarked upon in the middle ages. It isn't really a thing. Just strange behavior. After all, women do not really have a sex drive nor do they desire other women, right ;-)?

[Paxter Redwyne]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Lady Elissa is at one point called her 'true love'. It is all pretty obvious. Rhaena never has any male favorites. Only girls and women. She never encourages male suitors, either. And the unseemly affection and favors she shows her favorites from the first causes unspecified rumors - rumors Queen Alyssa doesn't want to see spread about Alysanne which is why he dismissed her companions and ladies on a regular basis.

Even the first favorite of Rhaena's - her cousin Larissa Velaryon - is an interesting case considering that she is suddenly recalled to Driftmark to marry the second son of the Evenstar. This seems to have been an unplanned wedding, possibly hastily arranged because the relationship between Rhaena and Larissa had become court gossip.

And this is exactly how female homosexuality would be remarked upon in the middle ages. It isn't really a thing. Just strange behavior. After all, women do not really have a sex drive nor do they desire other women, right ;-)?

Why did she marry Androw then? 

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Why did she marry Androw then? 

Because he was nice to her. And because he was the brother of her true love and a good friend and she liked him - for a time.

[Lightning Tiger]

36 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Why did she marry Androw then? 

So he can be her beard? (Am I even using the the right term?)

[The hairy bear]

Yes, all clues indicate that Rhaena used Androw as a beard. When they married, she was 26 and he was 17, and we are also told that the boy was a bit simple. So I got the impression that Rhaena more or less manipulated him into a marriage that could only end badly.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Yes, all clues indicate that Rhaena used Androw as a beard. When they married, she was 26 and he was 17, and we are also told that the boy was a bit simple. So I got the impression that Rhaena more or less manipulated him into a marriage that could only end badly.

I don't know. They seem to have been happy on Fair Isle - the Four-Headed Beast and Androw. And for Rhaena there was no reason to hide her sexuality. Homosexuality isn't really an issue in Westeros, and female sexuality doesn't happen all that much, either, in the mind of men, and nobody could really force her to remarry against her will or anything. And even if they did, she could always take Elissa with her.

It only gets bad after they have to leave and eventually settle on Dragonstone. And Elissa's betrayal reflects very badly on Androw, too.

[naseridrl]

That authors footnote about Rogar is so savage.  He really was pretty much all talk.  Plus Rhaena was very much the type to back her threats unlike Rogar. 

I think Androw was a good choice for a husband, he seemed cool with her and Elissa.  His sister was clearly his best friend, he and Rhaena got on well enough.  Being married also meant she got largely left alone and couldn't be used by other Lords.  It only went wrong after Elissa left and the egg theft.  Androw seemed to want their friendship to continue as was but Rhaena was upset she'd lost her true love and probably wasn't convinced Androw hadn't played a part in the theft of the eggs which broke the bond they had.  Equally you've got Aerea acting up to add to Rhaena's concerns and her mother dying, then it all just blows up.

the main thing I love about all the Rhaena stuff is she seems to have such a interior life.  So many of the women get just a few lines, or its very superficial and its all about how they died or its just a few eye catching factoids and then gone.   But Rhaena gets this whole developed life, there are highs and lows, triumphs and despairs.  We see her journey from childhood to death and really experience so much of her life, her loves and losses. 

Shout out to Melony Piper as well, she certainly put in a shift for Rhaena (and Aegon)

[Lord Varys]

I think we can take Rhaena's comment on why she took Androw at face value. He was kind to her, and she seems to have been her grandmother's daughter, in a sense, following her flights of fancy. Aenys had that, too, and Rhaena is very much her father's daughter, especially in childhood - she isn't sickly as a child, but shy.

The additional material on the decision of marrying Rhaena to Aegon and Jaehaerys' later reflections on his father's weakness also seem to imply that a good deal of this apparent weakness goes back to Aenys not being as great a warrior as Maegor and him not making a show of force whenever he was provoked. When he wanted things - Maegor in exile, his daughter married to his son - those things did happen.

And there is a cruel streak in him and Alyssa both - him with his satisfaction over the dead would-be Lodos and Alyssa over the hands and heads of Maegor's dead henchmen.

[Hiigara129]

Hasn't been mentioned yet but I liked the expanded material on how Aegon the Uncrowned (a nickname BTW that I love) and Rhaena got their dragons (back in Rhaena's case) after Maegor ascended the throne. I remember it being quite a debate last year when Sons of the Dragon was published.

[Lord Varys]

The thing about why they didn't take Dreamfyre with them on the progress is interesting - the non-existing explanation as to why Aenys didn't offer his son and heir a dragon sooner is not so good. Would have been a nice wedding gift...

And confusing and contradictory is the idea that the Faith Militant did not (try to) kill Dreamfyre was in KL while they controlled the city and the notion that Aegon mounted Quicksilver in KL while she is confirmed to have been on Dragonstone for Aenys' funeral.

There is no good explanation as to why anyone would have moved her to KL in the meantime.

This could have been easily be made better if Rhaena had mounted Dreamfyre in KL and then they had flown to Dragonstone together to have Aegon claim Quicksilver there. Wouldn't have been just one paragraph more.

Alternatively, Aenys couldn't have taken Quicksilver with him to Dragonstone, or both Quicksilver and Dreamfyre could have been on Dragonstone when Rhaena and Aegon took the dragons.

[Ran]

2 hours ago, Hiigara129 said:

Hasn't been mentioned yet but I liked the expanded material on how Aegon the Uncrowned (a nickname BTW that I love) and Rhaena got their dragons (back in Rhaena's case) after Maegor ascended the throne. I remember it being quite a debate last year when Sons of the Dragon was published.

Yep, agreed. 

[Hiigara129]

On 11/25/2018 at 5:57 PM, Lord Varys said:

The thing about why they didn't take Dreamfyre with them on the progress is interesting - the non-existing explanation as to why Aenys didn't offer his son and heir a dragon sooner is not so good. Would have been a nice wedding gift...

And confusing and contradictory is the idea that the Faith Militant did not (try to) kill Dreamfyre was in KL while they controlled the city and the notion that Aegon mounted Quicksilver in KL while she is confirmed to have been on Dragonstone for Aenys' funeral.

There is no good explanation as to why anyone would have moved her to KL in the meantime.

This could have been easily be made better if Rhaena had mounted Dreamfyre in KL and then they had flown to Dragonstone together to have Aegon claim Quicksilver there. Wouldn't have been just one paragraph more.

Alternatively, Aenys couldn't have taken Quicksilver with him to Dragonstone, or both Quicksilver and Dreamfyre could have been on Dragonstone when Rhaena and Aegon took the dragons.

I think I speculated on this last year, but Aegon could have been doing what Maegor did; wait for a better Dragon to come around. Maegor got Balerion so Aegon could have likely been waiting to claim Vhagar at Visenya's death. But that's mere speculation.

As for the other dragons and the Faith militant, yeah that is a bit odd. I'd guess that the FM didn't control the whole city, merely the Hill of Rhaenys and the dragons were simply housed elsewhere, in a district under Targaryen control. A weak argument but that's all I got. But the Quicksilver part is bizarre. I can find it on Dragonstone lighting Aeny's pyre and then in King's Landing being claimed by Aegon. So maybe Quicksilver flew back and nested at King's Landing? IDK but I guess it's a minor plot point.

[M.Alhazred]

Maegor killed by one of his wives.Seems fitting to me.I am partial to the Kingsguard theory who else would have been able to go into the throne room without him reacting outside of Rhaena? Either they helped her or they looked the other way while she did it herself.