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Lord Varys

[SPOILERS] The Sons of the Dragon (extended version)

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Just now, M.Alhazred said:

Maegor killed by one of his wives.Seems fitting to me.I am partial to the Kingsguard theory who else would have been able to go into the throne room without him reacting outside of Rhaena? Either they helped her or they looked the other way while she did it herself.

I think he killed himself. He knew there was no way he could win and hold the Throne, and solved this problem with the only way he had ever known - violence.

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14 hours ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

I think he killed himself. He knew there was no way he could win and hold the Throne, and solved this problem with the only way he had ever known - violence.

No way. Maegor seems like Aerys II in regards to losing; If I'm going down I'll take everyone with me! Hell he still had Barlerion, the largest dragon in the world. That dragon alone would make any actual battle between Maegor and his opposition a hard-fought one. No murder is much more likely, though who killed him is up for debate.

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3 hours ago, Hiigara129 said:

No way. Maegor seems like Aerys II in regards to losing; If I'm going down I'll take everyone with me! Hell he still had Barlerion, the largest dragon in the world. That dragon alone would make any actual battle between Maegor and his opposition a hard-fought one. No murder is much more likely, though who killed him is up for debate.

I don't really see Maegor as Aerys II-before-Aerys II. He was cruel and a psychopath, but I don't think he was delusional. He knew he would be soon dethroned, there was nothing he could do about it, and chose to kill himself rather than suffer the humiliation of being arrested, thrown into a cell and executed.

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7 hours ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

I don't really see Maegor as Aerys II-before-Aerys II. He was cruel and a psychopath, but I don't think he was delusional. He knew he would be soon dethroned, there was nothing he could do about it, and chose to kill himself rather than suffer the humiliation of being arrested, thrown into a cell and executed.

Maegor executed Lord Hayford for mere suggestion of taking black, shortly before he was found dead. He still had Balerion and could go Harrenhal 2.0 on his enemies.

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Yeah, we already discussed this up and down when TSotD came out - the setting as such makes it more likely that Maegor was murdered than that he killed himself. He still had certain crucial options. The idea that Vermithor and Silverwing and Dreamfyre could defeat him, while two of the dragons were ridden by children - and the third by a woman who did not dare to face Balerion together with Quicksilver - makes it not exactly a given that they would have won. And once Jaehaerys and his sisters were dead, their dragons broken, and Storm's End another Harrenhal Maegor would have gotten himself some more followers again. Or not. In any case, he could have gone down with a boom.

And quite frankly, one of the most glaring contradictions in TSotD is now the idea that Dreamfyre wouldn't have been of much use at the Gods Eye whereas a couple of years later she was a major addition to Jaehaerys' two dragons.

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And quite frankly, one of the most glaring contradictions in TSotD is now the idea that Dreamfyre wouldn't have been of much use at the Gods Eye whereas a couple of years later she was a major addition to Jaehaerys' two dragons.

That to be honest was pretty funny statement. Rogar was deluded that they had chance against Balerion.

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Is there any information on why prince Aegon chose Silverwing has his mount. He'd become a dragon rider rather late in his life compared to his siblings. King Maegor didn't want any other dragon except Balerion the Black Dread was Aegon planning the same idea. To take a giant dragon-like Balerion or Vhagar when Maegor or Visenya die? But ultimately took Silverwing to show the realm he was Aenys heir. 

Edited by Tha Shiznit

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On 11/28/2018 at 4:34 PM, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, we already discussed this up and down when TSotD came out - the setting as such makes it more likely that Maegor was murdered than that he killed himself. He still had certain crucial options. The idea that Vermithor and Silverwing and Dreamfyre could defeat him, while two of the dragons were ridden by children - and the third by a woman who did not dare to face Balerion together with Quicksilver - makes it not exactly a given that they would have won. And once Jaehaerys and his sisters were dead, their dragons broken, and Storm's End another Harrenhal Maegor would have gotten himself some more followers again. Or not. In any case, he could have gone down with a boom.

It's not clear that the kids would have been dead and broken. But neither were they likely to defeat Balerion.

Balerion's slowness is first emphasized in 75, when it was brought out to dissuade Alyssa from claiming Balerion. Cannot remember it mentioned before - but not ruled out either. Balerion was 189 then.

Vhagar was mentioned as slow in 129, at age 179.

The three of Dreamfyre, Vermithor and Silverwing might have been faster than Balerion in 48 already. In which case, they may have drawn Maegor to a wild goose chase, and after shaking him off a few days later turned round and raced to burn down Red Keep in the few hours of headway they had. Or if Maegor sat tight at Red Keep to prevent just such a possibility, they could have picked off Maegor's followers everywhere else and starved his followers in Red Keep by burning any reinforcements or supplies.

The problem is that it would not have been a victory. Once Maegor's followers on ground were gone, burned in his absence, starved or deserted to avoid the above, Maegor would no longer have been tied down to followers to protect, and therefore would have been perfectly free to burn Storm's End in return - the three dragonets could flee him, but not protect their followers.

Rogar would not have liked it to happen - and would not have advertised it to his followers as a plan. But it might have made sense for Lord Hayford to warn about just such a possibility - that if Dreamfyre chooses to flee rather than fight like Quicksilver did, Maegor might not be able to win a wild goose chase or protect his armies in his absence.

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25 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

@Ran Can you confirm whether Rhaena Targaryen was really homosexual or not? Maybe translation in my country differ, but I am still not convinced that it is true.

That's for readers to decide for themselves. 

If you want my opinion, though, yes, she was.

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45 minutes ago, Jaak said:

It's not clear that the kids would have been dead and broken. But neither were they likely to defeat Balerion.

Balerion's slowness is first emphasized in 75, when it was brought out to dissuade Alyssa from claiming Balerion. Cannot remember it mentioned before - but not ruled out either. Balerion was 189 then.

Vhagar was mentioned as slow in 129, at age 179.

The three of Dreamfyre, Vermithor and Silverwing might have been faster than Balerion in 48 already. In which case, they may have drawn Maegor to a wild goose chase, and after shaking him off a few days later turned round and raced to burn down Red Keep in the few hours of headway they had. Or if Maegor sat tight at Red Keep to prevent just such a possibility, they could have picked off Maegor's followers everywhere else and starved his followers in Red Keep by burning any reinforcements or supplies.

The problem is that it would not have been a victory. Once Maegor's followers on ground were gone, burned in his absence, starved or deserted to avoid the above, Maegor would no longer have been tied down to followers to protect, and therefore would have been perfectly free to burn Storm's End in return - the three dragonets could flee him, but not protect their followers.

Rogar would not have liked it to happen - and would not have advertised it to his followers as a plan. But it might have made sense for Lord Hayford to warn about just such a possibility - that if Dreamfyre chooses to flee rather than fight like Quicksilver did, Maegor might not be able to win a wild goose chase or protect his armies in his absence.

This is discussing the mechanics of battle of imaginary flying reptiles. With that caveat in mind, I have to say that Martin's premise of the bigger dragons having an advantage seems wrong. They would be more destructive against ground troops and harder to harm, while also having the advantage of greater strength when grappling with other dragons. But they would also be slower and less maneuverable and it would also be harder for them to sustain flight. In a purely aerial battle a smaller and more maneuverable dragon should be able to knock the bigger one out of the sky as long as it can avoid being grabbed. 

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1 minute ago, The Sleeper said:

This is discussing the mechanics of battle of imaginary flying reptiles. With that caveat in mind, I have to say that Martin's premise of the bigger dragons having an advantage seems wrong. They would be more destructive against ground troops and harder to harm, while also having the advantage of greater strength when grappling with other dragons. But they would also be slower and less maneuverable and it would also be harder for them to sustain flight. In a purely aerial battle a smaller and more maneuverable dragon should be able to knock the bigger one out of the sky as long as it can avoid being grabbed. 

That's not clear. Balerion of 93 AC might have lost a fight... or have a smaller, nimbler dragon burn Balerion's rider off Balerion's back while the armour of Balerion leaves Balerion unhurt beneath the dead rider. May or may not have been the case in 83 AC, or 75 AC, or 54 AC, or 48 AC.

But it would be something that Maegor could reply to lord Hayford, knowing dragons better - that Balerion was after all fast enough to chase down the dragonets, or that if the dragonets fly, Rogar and Alyssa on ground would still burn.

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Man i don't get how Aneys was just so weak being raised arounf Aegon and even had Visenya to contend with at times. Still a shame how Aegon's two sons nearly messed things up. 

Can anyone else come up with a theory why Visearys didnt have a dragon too. Aegon was late but i can understand if he wanted a better dragon, but weird Visearys didn't claim one.

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It says for the Faith Militant that "in the Reach, Trident, Vale, they rose.  Ragged Silas, Septon Moon, Dennis the Lame"

Given that Septon Moon rose in the riverlands, does this imply that Ragged Silas was in the Reach, and Dennis the Lame in the Vale?

It still doesn't clearly explain what the Gulltown chapter of the Warrior's Sons was doing.  

  • King's Landing chapter - wiped out at Burning of the Sept of Remembrance
  • Starry Sept - mostly wiped out at the Battle of the Great Fork of the Trident
  • Oldtown - mass-arrested in a coup by the Hightowers to save the city from Maegor and Visenya's wrath on dragons.  Three-fourths chose to join the Night's Watch (where they caused problems later...)
  • Lannisport - led by Joffrey Doggett, major thorn in Maegor's side, ultimately controlling the northern half of the Westerlands in all but name
  • Gulltown - UNKNOWN

Why does it say at times that Joffrey Dogget was the "self-proclaimed" Grand Captain of the Warrior's Sons?  At other points it says they chose him in an election after the previous leader died in the trial by seven.

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