[SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

[Lord Varys]

22 hours ago, naseridrl said:

I do sort of wish Rogar had tried to remarry and Rhaena had come and burnt his sorry ass to a crisp.  But he was probably too scared.  His kids seem to have turned out better than him though so something of Alyssa lived on through them and in turn something of Rhaena.

Rogar really comes off as a windbag. I mean, notice how he only dreamed of challenging Maegor to a duel and was nowhere to be seen during Maegor's actual reign (could be because George didn't have fleshed him out while writing TSotD, but now it is as it is), and how he, supposedly a great warrior and general, constantly frets about actually using force when this the possibility comes up 'Well, I could lead my army here and there, yadayada, but not without cost.' He uses that spiel both when they discuss Maegor's remaining loyalists as well as when they discuss Septon Moon's horde.

19 hours ago, naseridrl said:

Seems we also have another woman on the small council in spirit to go along with Elaena.  Seems the young Martyn Tyrell's wife Florence Fossaway was the real Master of Coin.  Shame none of these kings has the guts to give these women the job in their own name instead of their husbands. 

Yeah, I didn't like that parallel too much. Would have been better if Jaehaerys I had actually just named a Mistress of Coin and be done with it. He had dragons. Daeron II may have been in a weaker position overall. It makes, perhaps, sense, if one sees Lady Florence as a married woman and it being pretty difficult for her to drag her husband to KL rather than the other way around. But he could have actually named an unmarried or widowed woman who then later did indeed drag her husband to court, in a manner of speaking ;-).

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

I haven't finished the story of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, but there doesn't seem to be a happy ending for any of the main protagonists.

Sure, but as Alysanne puts it - 'My uncle Maegor was cruel, but age is crueler.' That's how it is.

And I'd say Vaegon and Rhaella got their happy endings - they got out of this story before anybody could kill them ;-). And Jocelyn, too, although I don't like that at all.

41 minutes ago, MoIaF said:

I think Rhaegal is Vermithor's son and more likely than not, Drogon is Balerion's son or grandson.

If Dany's eggs are three stolen from Dragonstone, then their mother would possibly be either Dreamfyre or Vhagar, considering these two she-dragons actually were on Dragonstone when Elissa stole the eggs. Silverwing and Vermithor were in KL.

But there was many an unnamed dragon at Dragonstone during the days of Rhaena, so we really have no way of knowing any of that. Still, if Elissa's eggs are Dany then their lineage puts them much closer to Vhagar and Balerion than we previously assumed. They might indeed be immediate descendants of Vhagar and Balerion, which could also explain how it comes that Drogon pretty much looks like Balerion.

And Viserion is not that far away from Quicksilver, one assumes.

[naseridrl]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, I didn't like that parallel too much. Would have been better if Jaehaerys I had actually just named a Mistress of Coin and be done with it. He had dragons. Daeron II may have been in a weaker position overall. It makes, perhaps, sense, if one sees Lady Florence as a married woman and it being pretty difficult for her to drag her husband to KL rather than the other way around. But he could have actually named an unmarried or widowed woman who then later did indeed drag her husband to court, in a manner of speaking ;-).

I think Jae was probably best placed to be able to do it.  He had dragons, Martyn wasn't Lord of anything at that time so much easier for his wife's job to drag him to court, everyone also knew Alysanne was certainly very much a premier advisor to the King, it was that long ago that Visenya and Rhaenys were ruling the Kingdom so women were still at that time influential in the Targ court.  It was clearly know she was doing it, its not like it would have shocked anyone.  Even with Daeron, Elaena was a Princess so it would have been hard for people to object. 

They were both clearly good at their job.  Florence obviously so good at it that she had reputation enough that she was known about enough to be recommended to the king for the job.

[Lord Varys]

The vibe one gets is that both Martyn (who already was Lord Tyrell at that time, his father Bertrand, the drunkard, having died after the Shivers) and Florence attended the council meetings, so this was essentially a double appointment, but still...

I just don't find it very creative to use exactly the same ploy two times. George could have done better there.

[naseridrl]

So Martyn was already Lord, completely missed that thought it happened afterwards. Still everyone knew she was the one doing the job seems idiotic not to give her the title.  Plus it'd be a way to honour two houses, her birth house would have a Fossoway on the small council and her husbands house has their Lady on it.

Also it makes the Elaena stuff even more ridiculous to me, it happened once everyone knew Florence was the one doing the job and she did it very well so the second time surely you should actually just give the Lady doing the job the actual title. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I haven't finished the book yet and I don't recall if it was mentioned anywhere else, but have any dragon eggs hatched in King's Landing?

[Hiigara129]

About the lineage of Dany's dragons; its pretty much hinted that they're supposed to be Dreamfyre's eggs but that's not stated  emphatically. But I found it very interesting just how many eggs and young Dragons were housed in Dragonstone; when the 1st Daenarys was dying Jaehaerys desperately sent to Dragonstone for one of the hatchings to be brought to King's landing at once (which suggests that there's still dragons from Dragonstone that remain unnamed or that some of them could have died young) and we later had Aegon II attempting to hatch a new dragon after Sunfyre's death, during which the Maester chose seven eggs to bring to try to hatch (meaning that at least several more eggs were housed on Dragonstone; oh I wonder if they are the same seven eggs that Aegon V tried to hatch later!).

[Hiigara129]

Also, the first Daenarys was also the first Targaryen to die from a common illness. I wonder if the Targaryens before simply had excellent luck or if there was some kind of magic that the Dragonlords had to keep them healthy and if that magic began to fail after conquering Westeros proper. This could tie in to Maegor's mutated, half dragon looking stillborn children and the Valyrian Freehold's rumored belief that doom would come to them from the West.

[Hiigara129]

While we're apparently avoiding discussing Aerea's fate in greater detail at this time (should we make a separate thread for that fascinating and terrifying glimpse into what may be in Old Valyria?) I do wonder if whatever she and Balerion encountered had anything to do with the Black Dread's eventual decline and death or if it was simply old age (he was the youngest of the five Dragons brought by the Targs to Dragonstone and the other four had died, presumably of natural causes, during the Century of blood).

[Lord Varys]

22 minutes ago, Hiigara129 said:

About the lineage of Dany's dragons; its pretty much hinted that they're supposed to be Dreamfyre's eggs but that's not stated  emphatically. But I found it very interesting just how many eggs and young Dragons were housed in Dragonstone; when the 1st Daenarys was dying Jaehaerys desperately sent to Dragonstone for one of the hatchings to be brought to King's landing at once (which suggests that there's still dragons from Dragonstone that remain unnamed or that some of them could have died young) and we later had Aegon II attempting to hatch a new dragon after Sunfyre's death, during which the Maester chose seven eggs to bring to try to hatch (meaning that at least several more eggs were housed on Dragonstone; oh I wonder if they are the same seven eggs that Aegon V tried to hatch later!).

It may be Dreamfyre's eggs, but it's not the three eggs from Fair Isle, the ones Lord Lyman craves. Those hatched on Dragonstone.

18 minutes ago, Hiigara129 said:

Also, the first Daenarys was also the first Targaryen to die from a common illness. I wonder if the Targaryens before simply had excellent luck or if there was some kind of magic that the Dragonlords had to keep them healthy and if that magic began to fail after conquering Westeros proper. This could tie in to Maegor's mutated, half dragon looking stillborn children and the Valyrian Freehold's rumored belief that doom would come to them from the West.

The Shivers and the Winter Fever (and perhaps the Great Spring Sickness as well, which killed very rapidly) are not common illnesses. They are too, well, strange, in the way they are set up, especially the Shivers. That seems to be the kind of sickness the Others would cook up ... and they would have a reason for that, as it happens. After all, who did visit the Wall on a dragon just a few years ago? Queen Alysanne. And there was no winter in-between there. And to take from her that which she loved the most if they cannot get her directly might be the best thing they could do at this point.

Silverwing felt the Others, and the Others felt Silverwing, and they sent the Shivers as an answer.

At least that's what I like to believe.

Quite a few people with some drops of the blood of the dragon - Lord Rogar and Daemon Velaryon - survive. And the dragonriding Targaryens don't even catch it. Who knows? Perhaps a dragon could have saved little Dany, we'll never know. But I don't think it as a coincidence that the first Daenerys got felled by the Shivers in that scenario.

We have precedents for magical illnesses in Greyscale which seems to be Garin's curse run amok. It is not something transferred by germs and the like.

19 minutes ago, Hiigara129 said:

While we're apparently avoiding discussing Aerea's fate in greater detail at this time (should we make a separate thread for that fascinating and terrifying glimpse into what may be in Old Valyria?) I do wonder if whatever she and Balerion encountered had anything to do with the Black Dread's eventual decline and death or if it was simply old age (he was the youngest of the five Dragons brought by the Targs to Dragonstone and the other four had died, presumably of natural causes, during the Century of blood).

Go start a thread. It is of course worth it, I just didn't do it because I didn't want to spoil or hint at that to early.

I think the wounds certainly wouldn't have helped Balerion's health, but he seemed to have recovered. He lived another forty years after all. But we can be pretty sure now that Euron never went to Valyria. We saw him naked, and there were no thingies there... ;-).

[SeanF]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

I think the wounds certainly wouldn't have helped Balerion's health, but he seemed to have recovered. He lived another forty years after all. But we can be pretty sure now that Euron never went to Valyria. We saw him naked, and there were no thingies there... ;-).

Maybe Euron had some magical protection.

[SeanF]

41 minutes ago, Hiigara129 said:

Also, the first Daenarys was also the first Targaryen to die from a common illness. I wonder if the Targaryens before simply had excellent luck or if there was some kind of magic that the Dragonlords had to keep them healthy and if that magic began to fail after conquering Westeros proper. This could tie in to Maegor's mutated, half dragon looking stillborn children and the Valyrian Freehold's rumored belief that doom would come to them from the West.

At the end of ADWD, Dany is extremely ill from sunstroke and eating the poisoned berries, but she seems to recover remarkably quickly in the presence of Drogon.  My own experience of suffering from vomiting and diorrhea simultaneously is that you feel utterly exhausted afterwards, and certainly not in any fit state to ride a dragon or eat horsemeat. So, magical creatures like dragons may well have some kind of healing property for their riders.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Yeah, what did Balerion encounter? Did he fly through a dimensional rift in the area now known as Valyria,  into hell? Did demons damage him as described? Barth seems to think they crossdd over into somewhere else.

[The Sleeper]

21 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yeah, what did Balerion encounter? Did he fly through a dimensional rift in the area now known as Valyria,  into hell? Did demons damage him as described? Barth seems to think they crossdd over into somewhere else.

I think that firewyrms are supposed to grow to Dune-scale sizes and that the really big ones dwelled deep beneath the earth before the Doom. Only now they have come to the surface. One of them probably thought Balerion looked tasty. 

[Lady Rhodes]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

two she-dragons

I thought dragons had no gender?

 

[Ran]

Per Barth and Aemon, dragons can change gender. But this seems to have been ignored or dismissed by the Citadel's orthodoxy, and we see the dragons repeatedly called he and she in a consistent way in Gyldayn's writing. This does raise the point in F&B (already raised in TWoIaF) that Mushroom claims Vermax left eggs beneath Winterfell, which Gyldayn dismisses because Vermax was never known to lay so much as a single egg, which means Vermax "must be" male, and Barth's notion that dragons can change sex is simply ludicrous.

This suggests that "sexing" dragons as far as maesters are concerned is literally just a matter of whether a dragon laid eggs or not -- laid an egg, female, never laid an egg, male.

[Lord Varys]

47 minutes ago, Ran said:

This suggests that "sexing" dragons as far as maesters are concerned is literally just a matter of whether a dragon laid eggs or not -- laid an egg, female, never laid an egg, male.

Yeah, not to mention that changing sex doesn't mean you are sexless. It means you can be female for a time, and then change to be male or vice versa. This is really not a big deal. However, since we don't have a confirmation that they change sex they might actually be hermaphrodites. Who knows? But dragons who produce eggs are branded she-dragons - and are, perhaps, female at least when/while they produce eggs.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yeah, what did Balerion encounter? Did he fly through a dimensional rift in the area now known as Valyria,  into hell? Did demons damage him as described? Barth seems to think they crossdd over into somewhere else.

There are simply monsters there. Transdimensional shenanigans have, at this point - and thankfully - , no place in Martinworld.

[Tha Shiznit]

Lord Vays can you give any details on why the Faith of Seven allowed the marriage of Jaehaerys and Alysanne but rejected Aegon and Rhaena. And if polygamy was ever officially abandoned by the Targaryens during Jaehaerys reign. 

 

 

[Tha Shiznit]

And a bit more information on this new Daenaerys. Did George added a new daughter or did he just renamed a previous child of Jaehaerys?  

[Lord Varys]

The Faith did not exactly allow Jaehaerys/Alysanne. They just married. Their mother, the Queen Regent, and their stepfather Lord Baratheon were not in favor of that marriage.

But we do learn more about why Jaehaerys thought the Faithful rose up in the wake of Aegon/Rhaena and did not do so in his and Alysanne's case. And the issue there is actually Maegor's second marriage - the fact that the conflict had already started when Aenys made matters worse with the incest marriage. This was seen as adding oil to the fire, basically, not exactly as the cause of the entire uprising. That started with Maegor and Alys.

And later on Jaehaerys I essentially just tells the Faith what to believe and adds a new doctrine to the Faith (the so-called 'Doctrine of Exceptionalism') which eventually becomes an official dogma to the Faith. Bow down, boys and girls, all men are equal - but some, those who ride dragons and have silver-golden hair and purple eyes and marry their sisters, are more equal.

Polygamy is never outlawed as such, but it is quite that Jaehaerys I sees it as an abomination when it is brought up in his hearing in a certain context (his daughter Saera plays with the idea of taking three husbands at once), and later on it is mentioned again in a ridiculous context when Lady Sam offers Aegon III to brides at once - her actual sister and her good-sister, if I'm not misremembering.

The first Daenerys is a new character. George *killed* Aeryn Targaryen and replaced him with Daenerys. But he also changed the birth order so that Daenerys is now the second child and first daughter - the oldest living child - whereas Alyssa Targaryen - who originally was the second born and oldest living child - is now the fifth-born child, the younger sister of Prince Baelon whereas she was originally older than both Baelon and Aemon.

She is originally betrothed to Prince Aemon.