[SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

[Tha Shiznit]

 

Lord Varys was primogeniture brought up in the Great Council of 101. Did any of the great and small lords bring up the fact Jaehaerys succeeded his two nieces Aerea and Rhaella? Aerea was the heir to Maegor should he die. Did any remind Jaehaerys of this and did it affect his decision regarding Rhaenys claim?  

[Euron Lannister]

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

George *killed* Aeryn Targaryen and replaced him with Daenerys.

is he simply not mentioned or actively removed?

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, Euron Lannister said:

is he simply not mentioned or actively removed?

He is gone. They have 13 children. Aeryn would have been one more.

[Euron Lannister]

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He is gone. They have 13 children. Aeryn would have been one more.

sad, i don't like it when books of the same series contradict each other

Edit: also sad that he had an unique name while we have way to many aegons, and baelors

[Lord Varys]

42 minutes ago, Tha Shiznit said:

I see and what was the stance on primogeniture, was it brought up in the Great Council of 101. Did any of the great and small lords brought up the fact Jaehaerys succeded his two nieces Aerea and Rhaella? Aerea was the heir to Maegor should he die. Did any remind Jaehaerys of this and did it affect his decision regarding Rhaenys claim?  

Sure, that's all discussed. Primogeniture vs. proximity and all that.

And that Aerea and Rhaella were passed over for Jaehaerys I is a very severe issue from the start, and the same with Rhaena - who as the eldest child also had a strong claim, according to quite a few people.

Originally they are all in for Jaehaerys, but that changes during the Regency of Alyssa Velaryon and long reign of the Old King nearly becomes the short reign of the Young King because Lord Rogar (who *a couple of months ago* boasted that 'this is not Dorne') suddenly decides that Princess Aerea would make a much better queen and had the better claim, besides, and would also be supported by the dragonrider Queen Rhaena. Queen Alyssa prevents that in one of the bad-ass scenes in the book, but it is quite clear that Jaehaerys I's claim is not undisputed.

Afterwards (and before) Aerea is the acknowledged Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne until Daenerys is born - then she is the Heir Apparent. When Aemon is born Jaehaerys starts to treat him as his heir, to Alysanne's displeasure, but it is sort of fine because Daenerys, the elder sibling, and Aemon are supposed to marry and rule together. After Daenerys' death Aemon is the eldest living child and thus the Heir Apparent - and eventually he is also made Prince of Dragonstone.

After Rhaenys' birth Alysanne declares her 'our future queen', so it is quite clear, for her point of view, that a King Aemon I were to be followed by a Queen Rhaenys I. Rhaenys and her unborn child are only passed over after Aemon's premature death - which is avenged by Baelon who essentially becomes heir by popular decree, being a very popular guy.

I'd say that if Aemon had lived and ruled as king after his father Rhaenys would have followed him. That's the natural way of things. Viserys was an amiable fellow, and dragonless after the death of the Black Dread, he could be dealt with rather easily. And Daemon would have just been the second son of a second son. Not exactly a close position to the throne. And if Aemon had lived a long and happy life his grandchildren Laena and Laenor could have intermarried with Baelon's grandchildren - as Laenor and Rhaenyra actually did. The lines would have been united again, and everything would have been fine.

Jaehaerys I doesn't really want Viserys on the throne after Baelon's death, by the way. There is talk that he offered the throne to his third son, Archmaester Vaegon, with whom he talked behind closed doors after the tragedy struck. Vaegon refused, and suggested the Great Council to settle the issue without bloodshed. It was clear that Viserys' followers and Laenor's followers would not accept regardless who Jaehaerys named heir. Just as the Greens did not accept Rhaenyra.

Basically, the female claim is not exactly seen as weak, and there is no real issue anymore about Rhaena and Aerea's claims in 92 AC or 101 AC considering they are long dead and left no heirs of their body. The elder line of King Aenys died with Queen Rhaena in 73 AC (or perhaps with Septa Rhaella whenever she died).

[Euron Lannister]

Lord Varys are there more things that contradict World of ice and fire or other previous works?

[Tha Shiznit]

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Jaehaerys I doesn't really want Viserys on the throne after Baelon's death, by the way. There is talk that he offered the throne to his third son, Archmaester Vaegon, with whom he talked behind closed doors after the tragedy struck. Vaegon refused, and suggested the Great Council to settle the issue without bloodshed. It was clear that Viserys' followers and Laenor's followers would not accept regardless who Jaehaerys named heir. Just as the Greens did not accept Rhaenyra.

6

Did any of other lords respect Viserys, you mentioned that Jaehaerys want to bypass Viserys for his third son Vaegon. It seems that the Dance was inevitable, the Great council proposed by Alicent would have gone nowhere. Does Jaehaerys have to accept the popular vote of the lords to name his heir or can he refuse! 

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 hours ago, Euron Lannister said:

Lord Varys are there more things that contradict World of ice and fire or other previous works?

There was a glaring error by Galdayne, placing Brandon the Shipwright many thousands of years before the Conquest, when existing evidence suggests that he lived only a few centuries before Torrhen Stark.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Euron Lannister said:

Lord Varys are there more things that contradict World of ice and fire or other previous works?

The Starks are not really pissed about the New Gift, and since Lord Alaric's brother is already dead, there is also no Stark brother complaining about the forced giving of property. In fact, it is Lord Alaric who forced the lords holding the lands of the New Gift to part with it.

7 hours ago, Tha Shiznit said:

Did any of other lords respect Viserys, you mentioned that Jaehaerys want to bypass Viserys for his third son Vaegon. It seems that the Dance was inevitable, the Great council proposed by Alicent would have gone nowhere. Does Jaehaerys have to accept the popular vote of the lords to name his heir or can he refuse! 

Oh, Vaegon rejected Jaehaerys' offer to make him king even before the Great Council - if that happened. Again, it was behind closed doors. At the Great Council Vaegon's claim is dismissed because of his vows (and, presumably, because he doesn't want the throne). Jaehaerys has no real preference, but he seems to be okay with Baelon's heir succeeding, considering that a King Baelon I would eventually also have meant that a King Viserys I would rule one day.

But the point of the Great Council is basically to have the lords of the Realm gather round one claimant and thus convince that a violent struggle for succession after Jaehaerys' own death would be futile because a huge majority of the lords would stand with the chosen claimant.

[Ran]

Not a contradiction, per se, but a clarification. It's a later set of Starks that take issue, as we've noted that the details of the Stark family tree were not yet decided by George when we were working on TWoIaF when putting together the material. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Not a contradiction, per se, but a clarification. It's a later set of Starks that take issue, as we've noted that the details of the Stark family tree were not yet decided by George when we were working on TWoIaF when putting together the material. 

Oh, okay, but this is never brought up in FaB again. I guess Alaric's sons could have complained, no? But since they never ruled their opinion wouldn't have been all that relevant. His grandson Edric could have complained, but while we don't know if he did this all hangs in the air. It would be interesting if you could actually pin the generation down with a name in a future edition of TWoIaF.

[Ran]

Had to be someone between Alaric and Ellard. George's family tree doesn't really cover the children of the lords between then.

[Lord Varys]

Thinking some more about the issue I think one has to change that one from the Starks being pissed about being forced to give away property to them simply not being happy how it turned out. And that, perhaps, some generations down the road - at the Great Council, say, or perhaps even only in the reign of Viserys I or later.

The guy forcing to give away property was Lord Alaric Stark, not King Jaehaerys I. Queen Alysanne persuaded Lord Alaric, he was not forced. His sons or grandsons could complain about their father being charmed and persuaded by the Good Queen but not *really* about him being forced.

And after the New Gift was made it is silly to try to find a way to get back what Lord Alaric Stark actually gave away, no?

I also got the vibe that George decided to take the story of Walton Stark to explain why Lord Alaric and Jaehaerys I didn't get along, not so much the New Gift thing. And this whole thing - especially with the two of them in the crypts and all that - is not only a great scene but works much better, overall. Although there is a certain irony to a Lord of Winterfell actually complaining about a king sending men to the Wall - and blaming this king for the death of a brother who nobody forced to march beyond the Wall and fight some giants. But the brotherly love there comes across very fine.

Frankly, I never really understood the rationale between the New Gift and the North's support of Laenor Velaryon, either. It what sense is that to mean an opposition against the New Gift? Did they not really think that the elder line should prevail and stuff?

[Tha Shiznit]

On the Doctrine of Exceptionalism, how were the Faith willing to accept this bull, did Jaehaerys strong arm the Faith under the pretense of dragon fire? This rule could easily backfire on the Targaryen dynasty if they are dragon less an ambitious lord can easily cow a weak-willed king an into marrying his daughters into a polygamist marriage. Kinda like with Viserys and Alicent, Otto must have convinced Viserys into marrying his daughter. I guess I can see were Rhaegar got his brilliant idea of abduction from. His thinking he could get away with a bigamist marriage is sounding more likely more real than not.  

[Lord Varys]

It was the veiled threat. Show the dragons (which they do in a very impressive manner, especially Alysanne) and then be nice and let them pretend they have a choice. That's Jaehaerys I. He can entertain you all day but his smiles do have teeth. And when he angry he looks like Maegor. Whom he would have whipped the floor with had he returned from the grave, at according to the master-at-arms of Dragonstone in the year 50 AC. The man was not be trifled with.

[Free Northman Reborn]

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It was the veiled threat. Show the dragons (which they do in a very impressive manner, especially Alysanne) and then be nice and let them pretend they have a choice. That's Jaehaerys I. He can entertain you all day but his smiles do have teeth. And when he angry he looks like Maegor. Whom he would have whipped the floor with had he returned from the grave, at according to the master-at-arms of Dragonstone in the year 50 AC. The man was not be trifled with.

Until he came up against the Sealord of Braavos, who skipped straight past the veiled threat game and said the Faceless Men would end the Targaryens if they unleashed their dragons on Braavos.

[Lord Varys]

39 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Until he came up against the Sealord of Braavos, who skipped straight past the veiled threat game and said the Faceless Men would end the Targaryens if they unleashed their dragons on Braavos.

So what? Braavos would have still burned, and the Sealord and his family and people would have died. Neither of them wanted war, and Jaehaerys had made it clear what he would do if the precious stones hatched. The Faceless Men wouldn't have saved Braavos.

[Ran]

If Braavos really wanted to hatch the dragons and set itself against Westeros, they'd just send the Faceless Men preemptively anyways, and the Targaryens would be snuffed out before they knew what was happening.

The threat of the Faceless Men is about as bad as the threat of dragons, which basically makes it a situation of MAD theory.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

If Braavos really wanted to hatch the dragons and set itself against Westeros, they'd just send the Faceless Men preemptively anyways, and the Targaryens would be snuffed out before they knew what was happening.

The threat of the Faceless Men is about as bad as the threat of dragons, which basically makes it a situation of MAD theory.

That is true, but there is no hint the Braavosi know how to magically hatch dragon eggs, no? If they just hatched and Jaehaerys learned of it, he would have done what he threatened to do in that case.

Overall, the Faceless Men do not come across as weapon in the power of the mighty - aside from, perhaps, the Iron Bank - of which I think the House of Black and White is one of the major shareholders, explaining why they seem to lower themselves to take out all those princes and other powerful debtors if they refuse to pay their due.

Else there would be a lot more of those mysterious deaths.

But in the end it is very difficult at this point to lay the finger on the political role the Faceless Men play in Braavos. To what degree do they care about mundane politics? I don't think they care what individual Sealords do want to accomplish, nor any powerful families in the city. Their philosophy doesn't fit well with the idea that they are an instrument of the mighty. Now, there might be certain things - threats to the city of Braavos as such - they would likely do their best to avert, but aside from that everybody seems to be fair game.

And even if we were to attribute the deaths of the brothers Rogare to the Faceless Men - were they employed/acting on behalf of the Iron Bank or on behalf of rivals of the Rogares in Lys? We don't know (I think the former is more likely, but still...).

That is something I'm really looking forward to in Arya's chapters in TWoW.

[Free Northman Reborn]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is true, but there is no hint the Braavosi know how to magically hatch dragon eggs, no? If they just hatched and Jaehaerys learned of it, he would have done what he threatened to do in that case.

Overall, the Faceless Men do not come across as weapon in the power of the mighty - aside from, perhaps, the Iron Bank - of which I think the House of Black and White is one of the major shareholders, explaining why they seem to lower themselves to take out all those princes and other powerful debtors if they refuse to pay their due.

Else there would be a lot more of those mysterious deaths.

But in the end it is very difficult at this point to lay the finger on the political role the Faceless Men play in Braavos. To what degree do they care about mundane politics? I don't think they care what individual Sealords do want to accomplish, nor any powerful families in the city. Their philosophy doesn't fit well with the idea that they are an instrument of the mighty. Now, there might be certain things - threats to the city of Braavos as such - they would likely do their best to avert, but aside from that everybody seems to be fair game.

And even if we were to attribute the deaths of the brothers Rogare to the Faceless Men - were they employed/acting on behalf of the Iron Bank or on behalf of rivals of the Rogares in Lys? We don't know (I think the former is more likely, but still...).

That is something I'm really looking forward to in Arya's chapters in TWoW.

The new revelation for me in this context was that in addition to being a neutral death cult, the Faceless Men are also in service to Braavos,  or at least aligned to the interests of protecting Braavos, based on the Sealord’s threat. So they are part of Braavos’s arsenal rather than being completely neutral and just geographically located in Braavos.

As for the Dragons eggs. We know Braavos hates dragons. The Sealord highlughted the threat dragons pose to his otherwise undefeatable navy - ships made of wood and all.

So might their interest in the eggs have been to study them in order for the Faceless Men to develop magical poisons that could kill dragons? Thus leading to the eventual extinction of the dragons over the next number of decades?