[SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

[Shmedricko]

1) A little bit of irony and foreshadowing I enjoyed:

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When Androw, flushed with anger, offered to face his brother in single combat, the queen quickly dissuaded him. "He would cut you to pieces, my love," she told him, "and were I to be thrice widowed, men would name me a witch or worse and hound me from Westeros." (A Surfeit of Rulers)

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"No," Androw Farman said, as they moved around the Painted Table to grasp him. "My wife can fly, and so can I." And so saying, he slashed ineffectually at the nearest man, backed to the window behind him, and leapt out. His flight was a short one: downward, to his death. Afterward Rhaena Targaryen had his body hacked to pieces and fed to her dragons. (Birth, Death, and Betrayal Under King Jaehaerys I)

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Her hair of gold and silver turned white before the end, and the smallfolk of the riverlands feared her as a witch. (Jaehaerys and Alysanne—Their Triumphs and Tragedies)

2)

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The thirteenth day of the fourth moon of 56 AC dawned cold and grey, with a blustery wind blowing from the east. [...]

Elsewhere in the Red Keep, Queen Alysanne spent the morning with her children; Princess Daenerys had finally warmed to her brother, Aemon, though she still wanted a little sister. [...]

All of them would long remember what they were doing when they heard the blast of a horn ringing through the morning air. "The sound of it ran down my spine like a cold knife," the queen would say later, "though I could not have said why." In a lonely watchtower overlooking the waters of Blackwater Bay, a guard had glimpsed dark wings in the distance and sounded the alarum. He sounded the horn again as the wings grew larger, and a third time when he saw the dragon plain, black against the clouds. (Jaehaerys and Alysanne—Their Triumphs and Tragedies)

I thought it was a neat reversal to have three horn blasts signal the coming of a dragon, rather than the Others. The cold, windy weather helps reinforce this connection, as does Alysanne (who would later visit the Wall) experiencing a chilly reaction to the sound. The young Targaryen princelings Daenerys and Aemon being amongst those to hear the ominous horn is unlikely to be a coincidence, I think, given Dany and Jon's presumed involvement in the looming conflict of the main series (Jon possibly being a Targaryen named Aemon or Aegon). If there is some foreshadowing here (besides the Horn of Winter bringing down the Wall), it could be that the Others will obtain a dragon of their own, perhaps an ice dragon or by killing and resurrecting one of Dany's dragons.

[Destiny Arrives]

On 12/13/2018 at 9:58 AM, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

Would there even have been a Maegor had Rhaenys survived?

Yea i think there would George said they competed for Aegon no Way Visenya was not gonna get a kid for the King. Whether Aneys would have been so weak if Rhaenys was still alive by his side now raises another question

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

1 hour ago, Destiny Arrives said:

Yea i think there would George said they competed for Aegon no Way Visenya was not gonna get a kid for the King. Whether Aneys would have been so weak if Rhaenys was still alive by his side now raises another question

This is very true, though one wonders, if Aenys has more siblings, from Rhaenys who are all boys, but Visenya has Maegor and a girl, who does the girl wed?

[Destiny Arrives]

15 minutes ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

This is very true, though one wonders, if Aenys has more siblings, from Rhaenys who are all boys, but Visenya has Maegor and a girl, who does the girl wed?

One of the other sons so we may get the faith rebellion earlier only we would have a king who isnt afraid to unleash his dragon in Aegon if they did.

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

2 minutes ago, Destiny Arrives said:

One of the other sons so we may get the faith rebellion earlier only we would have a king who isnt afraid to unleash his dragon in Aegon if they did.

Intersting you don't thikn they'd marry Aenys?

[Destiny Arrives]

1 hour ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

Intersting you don't thikn they'd marry Aenys?

No i feel him and Alyssa would be set from the get go to award the Valyerons 

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

4 hours ago, Destiny Arrives said:

No i feel him and Alyssa would be set from the get go to award the Valyerons 

Interesting, though this then makes me wonder would the Faith even dare uprising if Aegon the Dragon is still alive?

[Paxter Redwyne]

If Lord Desmond Manderly birth date from MUSH is correct(66AC) and he is great-grandson of Theomore, then Theomore would be around 70 years old when he was betrothed to Viserra. Jesus Christ.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

If Lord Desmond Manderly birth date from MUSH is correct(66AC) and he is great-grandson of Theomore, then Theomore would be around 70 years old when he was betrothed to Viserra. Jesus Christ.

Even if that date wasn't correct, it is quite clear that Lord Theomore already had pretty old sons and daughters by Alysanne's first visit in the late 50s. This means that the man was already in his thirties at least. Add the thirty years that have passed since and you arrive indeed in the late sixties or around seventy, yes.

That marriage was pretty much a joke. Depending on Theomore's health she may not even have gotten a child out of the entire thing. This is basically as great a marriage as Elaena Targaryen and Ossifer Plumm.

[Paxter Redwyne]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Even if that date wasn't correct, it is quite clear that Lord Theomore already had pretty old sons and daughters by Alysanne's first visit in the late 50s. This means that the man was already in his thirties at least. Add the thirty years that have passed since and you arrive indeed in the late sixties or around seventy, yes.

That marriage was pretty much a joke. Depending on Theomore's health she may not even have gotten a child out of the entire thing. This is basically as great a marriage as Elaena Targaryen and Ossifer Plumm.

I can only guess that Elaena married that old guy because of her affair with Oakenfist. 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I can only guess that Elaena married that old guy because of her affair with Oakenfist. 

That may have contributed to it, but it seems clear to me that Aegon IV arranged that marriage to torment Elaena and to steal all the Plumm wealth upon Lord Ossifer's death.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Why would it have been such a big deal if sweet Daella never married? It didn't seem like Jaehaerys cared how her marriage would matter politically, even though in the end it ironically proved to have a major effect on the Targaryens with Daella's daughter being a queen.  It's strange Jaehaerys could have such a caring marriage with a woman like Alysanne but as soon as his daughters bleed he wants them wedded and bedded as soon as possible. The poor girl was scared of kittens for crying out loud. 

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

49 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Why would it have been such a big deal if sweet Daella never married? It didn't seem like Jaehaerys cared how her marriage would matter politically, even though in the end it ironically proved to have a major effect on the Targaryens with Daella's daughter being a queen.  It's strange Jaehaerys could have such a caring marriage with a woman like Alysanne but as soon as his daughters bleed he wants them wedded and bedded as soon as possible. The poor girl was scared of kittens for crying out loud. 

Doesn't seem as if he were that great a father

[Destiny Arrives]

8 hours ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

Interesting, though this then makes me wonder would the Faith even dare uprising if Aegon the Dragon is still alive?

The way how the previous High Septons were with Aegon i doubt it the one under Aenys was just a radical fool

[Paxter Redwyne]

33 minutes ago, Destiny Arrives said:

The way how the previous High Septons were with Aegon i doubt it the one under Aenys was just a radical fool

The one under Aenys was also High Septon for around 10 years under Aegon.

[The Wondering Wolf]

6 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

The one under Aenys was also High Septon for around 10 years under Aegon.

That is what we would like to get confirmed. As we can see during the reign of Jahaerys, a HS with relations to the Hightowers was not uncommon, so the HS in 25 AC could still be different from the one in 39 AC.

[Bernie Mac]

6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Why would it have been such a big deal if sweet Daella never married?

In their society it absolutely would have been. By allowing her to remain single her entire life nor find a vocation serving God(s) would have seen them failing her and dooming her to an unhappy life. 

No noble parent wants their daughter to end up like Malora Hightower, nor do the vast majority of noble girls aspire to end up like that. Their society installs in them an idea that fulfillment is either, ideally, having a family or serving the faith.

6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

It didn't seem like Jaehaerys cared how her marriage would matter politically, even though in the end it ironically proved to have a major effect on the Targaryens with Daella's daughter being a queen.  It's strange Jaehaerys could have such a caring marriage with a woman like Alysanne but as soon as his daughters bleed he wants them wedded and bedded as soon as possible.

Not quite, they gave her a few years and she seemed as timid as ever. She was becoming more anti social and seemingly immature/simpleminded which would limit her options and, in her parents eyes, limit the chances of her finding happiness (she did not appear to be at the Red Keep). 

6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

The poor girl was scared of kittens for crying out loud. 

In fairness they were right, she seemed happy in the Vale with Arryn and 3 of her 4 children. 

Daella doted on the three younger children, however, and they seemed to adore her in turn. Lord Rodrik, true to his word, was a kind and caring husband who never failed to pamper and protect the bride he called “my precious princess.” Such letters as Daella sent her mother (letters largely written for her by Lord Rodrik’s younger daughter, Amanda) spoke glowingly of how happy she was, how beautiful the Vale, how much she loved her lord’s sweet sons, how everyone in the Eyrie was so kind to her.

 

6 hours ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

Doesn't seem as if he were that great a father

For their society he was;

“Maegelle says the Faith will not want a girl who cannot read her prayers.”

“There are still the silent sisters,” said Jaehaerys. “Must it come to that? Find her someone. Someone gentle, as she is. A kind man, who will never raise his voice or his hand to her, who will speak to her sweetly and tell her she is precious and protect her…against dragons and horses and bees and kittens and boys with boils and whatever else she fears.”

He wanted the best for her. Their society being incredibly sexist is not the fault of Jaehaerys, but they truly believed allowing her to remain a timid Maid would not make her happy.

[Destiny Arrives]

7 hours ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

Doesn't seem as if he were that great a father

He was a bi sexist but he was a great dad he doted on Saera before that incident, made sure that Daella was taken care of and said her husband needs to meet all the requirements for her to be happy. Heck as annying as Vaegon was he took advsied for him to find a role that would suit him and did so unlike Randal Tarly. IF Daerernys lived she would have gotten the same but just married to Aemon i guess. Unlike Aegon (as much as i like him) was a poor dad well atleast to Maegor. 

2 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

The one under Aenys was also High Septon for around 10 years under Aegon.

HE was well if Rhaenys had lived and got more kids and the incest started early old town would have burned because then you had three rulers in charge who were not afraid to unleash dragons. 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

In their society it absolutely would have been. By allowing her to remain single her entire life nor find a vocation serving God(s) would have seen them failing her and dooming her to an unhappy life. 

No noble parent wants their daughter to end up like Malora Hightower, nor do the vast majority of noble girls aspire to end up like that. Their society installs in them an idea that fulfillment is either, ideally, having a family or serving the faith.

Not sure where the textual evidence for this is. We do know Jaehaerys and Alysanne wanted to marry Daella off, but there is no reason given as to why this is the case. The Hightowers have two confirmed unmarried women and they sit in the center of the Faith - if they can refuse to marry and refuse to become septas then a Targaryen princess certainly should be able to do the same thing.

It seems to me that here the early incest match between Vaegon and Daella sort of set them on 'they have to marry' track and they never questioned that whole thing. The Citadel isn't exactly a career path for Vaegon, either. It is a way to get rid of him.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

In fairness they were right, she seemed happy in the Vale with Arryn and 3 of her 4 children. 

Daella doted on the three younger children, however, and they seemed to adore her in turn. Lord Rodrik, true to his word, was a kind and caring husband who never failed to pamper and protect the bride he called “my precious princess.” Such letters as Daella sent her mother (letters largely written for her by Lord Rodrik’s younger daughter, Amanda) spoke glowingly of how happy she was, how beautiful the Vale, how much she loved her lord’s sweet sons, how everyone in the Eyrie was so kind to her.

Was she now, or was her stepdaughter writing what she thought Queen Alysanne wanted to hear?

[Bernie Mac]

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure where the textual evidence for this is.

Textual evidence for what? It is exactly the same as our own past. 

As little a century ago women who remained single their whole lives were assumed to be unfulfilled, it was mostly sexist bullshit but that was the prevailing opinion in Western society.

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

We do know Jaehaerys and Alysanne wanted to marry Daella off, but there is no reason given as to why this is the case.

For the same reason Ned and Cat want their daughters married off. 

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

 

It is one thing for noble Westerosi parents in unhappy marriages to question if their society has the right of it, but Ned & Cat and Jaehaerys & Alysanne are in happy marriages, they want their children to be as happy as they are and even their parents were before Aenys died. 

 

 

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

The Hightowers have two confirmed unmarried women and they sit in the center of the Faith - if they can refuse to marry and refuse to become septas then a Targaryen princess certainly should be able to do the same thing.

“Maegelle says the Faith will not want a girl who cannot read her prayers.”

There is zero indication that Daella wanted that and we know her parents would have accepted that for her had she, like her older sister, pursued it. 

But life serving the gods is hard, many parents, especially ones in happy marriages, would prefer them to follow in their footsteps. 

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It seems to me that here the early incest match between Vaegon and Daella sort of set them on 'they have to marry' track and they never questioned that whole thing. The Citadel isn't exactly a career path for Vaegon, either. It is a way to get rid of him.

Vaegon, like Maegelle, indicated they wanted that life. Massey, one of the leading figures in his father's government, was able to opt out of being a Maester, Vaegon could have done the same.

 “The Citadel will take charge of you,” His Grace said. “It is for you to determine what becomes of you.”

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Was she now, or was her stepdaughter writing what she thought Queen Alysanne wanted to hear?

Would Queen Alysanne want to hear that she did not get along with Rodrik's daughter?