[SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

[The Sleeper]

It seems like that potential dynastic conflicts were a concern in regard to Viserra and her perceived ambitions. Her producing the heir of a great Lord could lead to said heir presenting a challenge to house Targaryen further down the line. 

Manderly, while powerful was proven to be loyal and not a lord Paramount, while him having adult children would act as a further obstacle for Viserra to gain influence in his house. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

I think renouncing her marriage was basically meaning turning away from being a wife, but that doesn't mean that the marriage is ended. That said, if she became a silent sister, it may be that that would provide the means for the Faith so an ending of the marriage bond and the king's ability to remarry. But that's just my speculation.

Can what Fireball did with his own wife be used as a sort of precedent? He got rid of his wife by making her join the silent sisters for that place he was promised in the Kingsguard. It just seems like a a wife joining the silent sisters is the answer to a divorce.

Thanks for the reply. It somewhat sheds some light on a couple of things, even if it's just your speculation.

[Ran]

4 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Can what Fireball did with his own wife be used as a sort of precedent? He got rid of his wife by making her join the silent sisters for that place he was promised in the Kingsguard. It just seems like a a wife joining the silent sisters is the answer to a divorce.

Thanks for the reply. It somewhat sheds some light on a couple of things, even if it's just your speculation.

Yeah, was going to bring up Fireball after considering it a bit. Joining the silent sisters appears to end the marital bond.

[HexMachina]

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Not really following the argument of the last couple pages. 

Why the concern for one obscure Targaryen noble having to marry an old guy? What about Lysa Tully’s fate, marrying old stinky breath Jon Arryn?

Or Walder Frey’s various young noble wives?

I’m sure there are plenty of other examples I’ve missed.

Neither Lysa nor Walders wives are the children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, presumably explaining their absence from this particular thread....

[The Bard of Banefort]

You know, I actually feel pretty bad for Viserra. All of her siblings, save for Saera, had their pick of young suitors, but she ended being forced into marrying an old man. Or at least she would have been, had she lived long enough. 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

You know, I actually feel pretty bad for Viserra. All of her siblings, save for Saera, had their pick of young suitors, but she ended being forced into marrying an old man. Or at least she would have been, had she lived long enough. 

That is my case, too. Especially in light that the vilification of Viserra's character is basically completely based on her 'inhumane beauty'. Gyldayn and Barth and whoever else comments on her take the fact that boys and men act like utter morons around (which many men and boys actually do around stunningly beautiful women and girls) as 'evidence' that she is sly and calculating and up to no good.

Sure, some of the things she makes people do - especially the 'put your hand into a dragon' thing - seems extreme, but that's still in the territory of pretty extreme dares among adolescents (especially since the chances that the dragons accustomed to the presence of people would hurt anyone in the presence of a Targaryen seems to be pretty low).

Whenever we get actually quotes or behavior of Viserra she comes across like a pretty normal teenager. She doesn't want to marry an old man, she has the hots for an older man she grew up with, she likes to go party.

She seems to be nowhere near Saera territory - Saera is actually a psychopath.

This isn't confirmation Viserra couldn't have revealed to be a bad apple later in life, but it never came to that. And I maintain that if Alysanne were right there and Viserra would stop at nothing trying to become queen - and it was a good thing to prevent that - then the way to rectify that wouldn't have been to marry her to an old lord of considerable power and wealth but rather to take her out of the game permanently. Give her to silent sisters, say, make her septa or force her into a marriage with a man close her own age but with no significance at all. Some petty lord or landed knight, say, like this Brownhill fellow, Cassandra Baratheon ended up with.

The weirdest part of the Manderly match is that the man must have had grandsons or great-grandsons at this point. Why not have the grace to marry her to one of them. It wouldn't have humiliated her so much.

I don't know how George wanted Alysanne to look in that affair, but she clearly doesn't look good. She looks like a woman who did her best to ensure her daughter would live a shitty life.

The other strangeness that comes up there is that Viserra actually had a nephew near to her own age. Why wasn't it even considered to marry her to Viserys? I'm sure he would have preferred his gorgeous aunt to the child bride he later had to marry.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Did Jaeharys and Alysanne's royal progresses ever extend to the Iron Islands? I'm honestly amazed at just how little the Iron Throne did to bring the Islands into the realm. It's no wonder they rebelled. 

[Paxter Redwyne]

3 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Did Jaeharys and Alysanne's royal progresses ever extend to the Iron Islands? I'm honestly amazed at just how little the Iron Throne did to bring the Islands into the realm. It's no wonder they rebelled. 

I don't remember them ever going there.

[The Grey Wolf]

16 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I don't remember them ever going there.

Aegon I did go there three times.

[Paxter Redwyne]

8 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Aegon I did go there three times.

Yes, but not Jaehaerys and Alysanne.

[Lord Varys]

We don't know where they went in their later years, but we do know that they visited the North multiple times. I'm pretty sure they went to the Iron Islands, too, but it is pretty clear why such a journey is not mentioned. I mean, it's the Iron Islands. They are complete backwater.

[Destiny Arrives]

11 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Did Jaeharys and Alysanne's royal progresses ever extend to the Iron Islands? I'm honestly amazed at just how little the Iron Throne did to bring the Islands into the realm. It's no wonder they rebelled. 

I researched only Royal went there for a reasons not to put down a rebellion was Aegon I i mean when it was mention if they should summon an ironborn to sit on the small counsel it was a resounding heck to the no no 

[AlaskanSandman]

Jaehaerys and his mother Alyssa remind me of Edward the 3rd of House Plantagenet and his mother Isabella who married a marcher lord and had her husband murdered. She was the She Wolf of France

 

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Jaehaerys and his mother Alyssa remind me of Edward the 3rd of House Plantagenet and his mother Isabella who married a marcher lord and had her husband murdered. She was the She Wolf of France

 

Except here it seems Alyssa and Aenys actually loved one another

[Jaak]

One notable omission in the love story of Jaehaerys and Alysanne:

They had the time to meet Rogar arriving with 52 men inside the castle gates, and arrange for all 7 Kingsguard to be present.

At the scene, Kingsguard and Rogar discuss being 7 armed men against 50. Singers follow suit... and Gyldayn critizises the singers for failing to mention the 40 men of the castle garrison.

What Gyldayn (and those present) fail to discuss is the whereabouts of...

Spoiler

two dragons

 

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, Jaak said:

One notable omission in the love story of Jaehaerys and Alysanne:

They had the time to meet Rogar arriving with 52 men inside the castle gates, and arrange for all 7 Kingsguard to be present.

At the scene, Kingsguard and Rogar discuss being 7 armed men against 50. Singers follow suit... and Gyldayn critizises the singers for failing to mention the 40 men of the castle garrison.

What Gyldayn (and those present) fail to discuss is the whereabouts of...

  Hide contents

two dragons

 

They would have been there, but do you seriously consider that Jaehaerys and Alysanne would have used Vermithor and Silverwing against their own mother, the Queen Regent!? That's just nonsense.

[Jaak]

True - dragons are not as easy to target at specific people as swords are.

But Alyssa at 41 does not run as fast as Jaeharys or maybe even the 12 year old Alysanne. The moment the 52 soldiers run ahead of Alyssa in pursuit of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, they are fair targets - both to dragons and to arrows of the 20 archers of garrison.

The only mention of dragons was Alysanne´s promise of having Silverwing fly her back from Mussovy... and that one was an empty boast.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Jaak said:

True - dragons are not as easy to target at specific people as swords are.

But Alyssa at 41 does not run as fast as Jaeharys or maybe even the 12 year old Alysanne. The moment the 52 soldiers run ahead of Alyssa in pursuit of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, they are fair targets - both to dragons and to arrows of the 20 archers of garrison.

The only mention of dragons was Alysanne´s promise of having Silverwing fly her back from Mussovy... and that one was an empty boast.

Man, I meant that there is no reason to believe Jaehaerys and Alysanne would have loosed their dragons on her mother and her party. Why should they do that?

[Jaak]

If Jaehaerys and Alysanne made the sprint to their dragons posted out of sightline of the gate but within earshot, because the seven Kingsguard slowed down Rogar´s 52 enough, then they would have been out of arm´s grab a few yards up in the sky already.

What were they going to do then? Fly for Essos? Sit helpless on rooftops and watch the seven who had given them the seconds to escape being massacred and tortured for it without protection?

[Maia]

On 11/28/2018 at 7:27 PM, Lord Varys said:

I said health risks, not deaths in childbirth. Alysanne didn't die in childbirth but it is basically spelled out that Jaehaerys fucked her to death, too. Thirteen pregnancies take a toll and your body and (greatly) contributed to Alysanne's (pretty early) death.

That's something that I wanted to bring up too - this aspect of their relationship doesn't make a lot of sense to me - it didn't after we learned that they had all those kids in WoIaF and does even less now, with the new details of their mother's awful death and Alysanne's expressed reluctance and documented dismay re: her later pregnancies.

I understand the need to secure succession, but it should have been easy to see that having too many sons, say, could lead to trouble. When Viserra was born, Vaegon was 8-9 - i.e. out of infancy and therefore very likely to live to adulthood. Aemon was pretty close to marrying - or even already married? I don't remember, and Baelon and Alyssa not far behind.  They also live in a world where reliable contraceptive in the form of the Moon Tea exists. After WoIaF, I thought that maybe Alysanne was exceptionally pious - if the High Sparrow is any example, the most rigid members of the Faith do condemn the Moon Tea use. But that doesn't seem to have been the case - and even if it was, the Faith doesn't demand that all marital sex should be procreative, like certain influential monotheistic religions. Alysanne had the clout to demand from her husband that he limit himself to practices less likely to get her pregnant - which are also satisfying and fun. So, I really don't understand this.

Also, what was the rush to  get Daella or Vaegon, for that matter, hitched? Were J&A worried that they might "turn" gay like their elder sister Rhaena, if they weren't married ASAP? I mean, neither was likely to cause trouble by marrying/carrying on with somebody inappropriate - and if Jaehaerys was still worried about male heirs and Alysanne was tired of child-bearing, didn't it make more sense to keep Vaegon in reserve, rather than sending him off to the Citadel at 15? I could have understood Jaehaerys's position re: Daella better if this had been post-Saera's antics, but as is this is very odd.

And if Alysanne was worried about Daella's ability to birth a child, maybe she should have told Rodrik Arryn not to get her pregnant until she was 18 or 20? I mean, he didn't have need of more heirs and again, the Moon Tea and non-penetrative sex do exist in Westeros.

Also, if Daella and Saera are on Jaehaerys, Viserra and Gael are on Alysanne. I really don't understand why Alysanne insisted on making such a terrible marriage for the former - particularly since the whole drunken episode in Baelon's chambers shows, IMHO, that Viserra wasn't nearly the smooth operator that her mother saw her as. And yes, she may have been an ambitious and mean girl, but she was at her brattiest age and also a daughter with 2 older brothers. I don't see why she couldn't have been married to some lord or heir of her own age. If Alysanne was concerned with her behavior at court, she could have been sent somewhere while proper match(es) were selected for her. And Gael! Shouln't Alysanne have made sure that she was chaperoned better, both given the tragic histories with her other daughters and the girl's own limitations? It isn't like Gael could have outwitted or intimidated septas and ladies-in waiting.

Finally, I surprisingly have  limited sympathy with Jaehaerys's dubiousness re: female heir after FaB. Neither his mother nor his elder sister covered themselves with glory as rulers and even Alysanne would withdraw from affairs of the realm due to gruief and family affairs. But why not marry Rhaenys to Viserys if he had such concerns?