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Lord Varys

[SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

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4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Small side-question: was Rhaenys the first legitimate Targaryen who had dark hair?

It would appear so. The Conquest trio and their sons had Valyrian features, as is the case with Rhaena's twins, and most of Aenys I and Jaehaerys I's children (Alysanne and Alyssa, while not having Valyrian features, had light-coloured hair).

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5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

To be clear, I don't think Jaehaerys was some sort of horrible monster, nor do I think that of Alysanne. They both undeniably had good intentions, even if those intentions didn't lead to good results.

Nobody said any of that. Jaehaerys may not have been the best of fathers but he was obviously no monster. And he seems to have been very close to both his eldest sons - which, overall, doesn't make him a bad father in that regard. Although he has to thank Alysanne for the Aemon-Jocelyn and Baelon-Alyssa match. It was she who made them happy with their marriages. Had she not had her way there Alyssa may have been forced to marry Aemon.

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Small side-question: was Rhaenys the first legitimate Targaryen who had dark hair? Targaryens with dark hair tend to make waves--notably Rhaenyra's sons and Baelor Breakspear--so I'm curious who the first one to grow up at the Red Keep was. 

Could be. We don't know how Vaella looked like, though.

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On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 6:23 AM, naseridrl said:

Does Mara fit as Qoren's mother in the timeline? Deria, Old Prince, Morion, Mara, Qoren, Aliandra?  Deria was princess in 37, by 61 there is a Prince.  Perhaps the Old Prince had a long reign and like Jae who took on the moniker of the Old King in his later years so did the Prince start to be called that. 

In 83 Morion comes to the throne.  He's described as young though, so I wonder could Mara be his sister and not daughter? There doesn't seem to be an indication that she had a regent in that small passage where she is mentioned as becoming Princess so she was probably of age.  Maybe Morion was just seen as young relative to the Old of his father but was well old enough to have grown up kids? 110(?) we have Qoren involved in the Stepstones stuff. 

Possibly, but like Walton Stark and Alaric Stark, there's wiggle room to say there was an older sibling who ruled briefly then died young or something.

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@Lord VarysThird, I also found is very interesting to see how few of Jaehaerys and Alysanne's children were dragon riders. Nine survived childhood, yet only three tamed dragons; so we have six Targaryens that never tried to tame dragons (well five as Saera was stopped before she could get into the Dragonpit). 

There weren't that many other dragons during their reign.  Vermithor, Silverwing, Vhagar, Caraxes, and Meleys were claimed.  Dreamfyre was claimed by Rhaena during most of this time, but then she died...

Many of their children died young.  Vaegon wanted to be a maester and Maegelle a septa, so that explains them, minus the three who were dragon-riders, that leaves four:  Daella, Saera, Viserra, and Gael.  All died very young.

The section explains rather clearly that...Daella was terrified of everything.  Even cats.  Fragile and delicate.  No surprise she didn't want to be a dragon-rider.  Saera...tried to steal Balerion, but got stopped at the last minute.  She was too irresponsible for a dragon.  Gael was young and simpleminded.  The only one I actually find confusing is that Viserra never tried to claim a dragon - but again, she died young in a drunken horse-race.

I actually feel bad for Viserra:  she wasn't Saera, so brazen she would defy her parents' command for an arranged marriage.  From her comments, she was NOT trying to run away, she just slipped out of the castle for the stated purpose of "a final fling before I have to marry Lord Manderly".  She'd have gone through with it. 

 

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On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 1:21 PM, Lord Varys said:

I've tossed around the idea that the guy claiming descent from Gaemon's younger daughter might have been Lord Harte, the father of Lady Hazel Harte, the mother of Daenaera Velaryon.

The fact that Daenaera has such striking Valyrian features could, perhaps, be better explained if she had drops of Targaryen blood on both sides of her lineage.

As possible as any, but no clear confirmation.  ...does fit that the Hartes are "petty lords" of not much note otherwise....we shall see...

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Okay, I'm going through my hand-written notes...I was busy for weeks with work/holidays and a slow close-reading.....

But to refocus discussion away from Jaehaerys's children to a few other details gleaned...…(family tree questions will be handled in the thread on those)….

I've been trying to work out objective facts for wiki articles.....

  • Where was the "Pepper Coast"? (See Wiki article writeup I made:  https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Pepper_Coast
  • It would be interesting to see a short history novella or extended MUSH historical note on...how Dorne was affected by the First Dornish War.  It sounds almost like they got off easy, even though they were basically "glassed" and should not have been doing well in Jaehaerys's reign.  It says the population of the Seven Kingdoms doubled under Jaehaerys's reign....north of Dorne.  For that matter, the Targaryens ended petty lords feuding with each other over local bickering....that may have continued even in Dorne.  How did they recover enough for Morion to be trying to attack just for the hell of it?
  • The Night's Watch mutiny of 50 AC, under Maegor's Kingsguard leading Faith Militant....it says that only one in ten of the Watch joined them....given that there are 19-ish castles on the Wall, and they commanded 2 castles, does that refer to "they controlled a tenth of the castles"....or that there was chaotic fighting even at these castles? I think the former.   
  • Is the Shivers supposed to be an early version of the Great Spring Sickness?  It sounds like a re-use of that trope ("A third of the Most Devout died")….though granted, that's just what a "plague" does.  
  • This is the earliest confirmed chronological mention of the religion of R'hllor, the Lord of Light.  When considering who Jaehaerys should marry at the start of his reign, it's mentioned that R'hllor is one of the gods worshipped in Tyrosh.  We don't know much of the history of that religion, other than a stray mention in the World book that red temples have spread a lot "in the past century" for some reason.  This confirms it's been established in the Free Cities since at least 250 years ago (though I would assume it's probably ancient).  
  • Alysanne says that even if they marry her off to "The King of Mossovy and the Lord of the Grey Waste", she'll find her way back to Jaehaerys.  This led to debate on wiki:  does the Grey Waste actually HAVE a "Lord"?  It's a wasteland. Or is Alysanne just speaking fancifully?  Similarly, does Mossovy actually have a "King"?  Or a "Prince"?  Or a single ruler at all?  I'm not sure if she was speaking literally.  Similarly, Saera saying "oh I'll marry the King Beyond the Wall" doesn't mean there actually was one at the time

More notes as I get them....

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Considering that Alysanne is very well-read we can assume she may know more about Mossovy and the Grey Waste than we do. That is, if Gyldayn/Benifer didn't just invent the dialogue there, or drew it from some singer's version of events.

There were red temples in Valyria, too, so R'hllor worship is pretty ancient.

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We also have the talk that the red priests in Valyria brought about the Doom.

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On 12/25/2018 at 2:17 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

There weren't that many other dragons during their reign.  Vermithor, Silverwing, Vhagar, Caraxes, and Meleys were claimed.  Dreamfyre was claimed by Rhaena during most of this time, but then she died...

Many of their children died young.  Vaegon wanted to be a maester and Maegelle a septa, so that explains them, minus the three who were dragon-riders, that leaves four:  Daella, Saera, Viserra, and Gael.  All died very young.

The section explains rather clearly that...Daella was terrified of everything.  Even cats.  Fragile and delicate.  No surprise she didn't want to be a dragon-rider.  Saera...tried to steal Balerion, but got stopped at the last minute.  She was too irresponsible for a dragon.  Gael was young and simpleminded.  The only one I actually find confusing is that Viserra never tried to claim a dragon - but again, she died young in a drunken horse-race.

I actually feel bad for Viserra:  she wasn't Saera, so brazen she would defy her parents' command for an arranged marriage.  From her comments, she was NOT trying to run away, she just slipped out of the castle for the stated purpose of "a final fling before I have to marry Lord Manderly".  She'd have gone through with it. 

 

A shame i tell ya would have loved to see a Princess like her in the north who knows she may have claimed a dragon before she left 

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On December 8, 2018 at 3:14 PM, DarkSister1001 said:

Haha!  No, silly!  She was captured North of the Wall.  WF is closer in relationship as well as distance to the Wall than White Harbor is to the Wall.  It's also odd that she was given to a Household Knight and not the Lord himself. 

I'm given the impression, she like Craster(and possibly Mance), was a bastard child of a Crow father and a wildling mother. I can see little reason for the black brothers to go through so much effort for Wildling orphan girl.  The crow would obviously have to be far up the food chain in order for this to work thus he'd almost certianly have to be a nobleman. The crow being of kin to the Manderyl's could explain why the wilding was sent there and given over to one of the household knights to raise. She'd be protected, and nurtured, but distant enough to where it wouldn't bring shame upon the family. I mean most of the girls we see dress up in armor to beat a male are of noble blood. There's Briene, possibly Lyanna, and  Alyssa. 

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On December 19, 2018 at 1:09 PM, Ran said:

As to Daella, I said it before, but I do not think being a spinster is such a dreadful thing in Westeros. Patrice Hightower is not discussed as some sort of strange creature for being a maiden.

Or just send her to the silent sisters. Never got why that was off the table by virtue of how Daella was too dumb to remember her prayers. Just bribe whoever needs bribing to take her in and keep her entertained. No need to actually have her do anything. 

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The silent sisters seems more like a punishment than any of the other options. Where undesirables of the family would be sent. Daella at least seems like an unlikely candidate from J&A's children to be sent there

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1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

The silent sisters seems more like a punishment than any of the other options. Where undesirables of the family would be sent. Daella at least seems like an unlikely candidate from J&A's children to be sent there

Yeah Jaehaery's reaction to that indicates it's not a great future.

There are still the silent sisters,” said Jaehaerys. “Must it come to that?

Theon uses it as a threat to his sister, The Hound to Arya and Wyman to his granddaughter   and Ned comments about how it was ill fortune to do their job (prepare the dead). 

It is a position reserved for the most devout and the punished/down on their luck. One of Elys Waynwood's daughters was kicked out after being seduced by a sellsword and ended up as one, as did the surviving Tarbeck women. 

 

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15 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

The silent sisters seems more like a punishment than any of the other options. Where undesirables of the family would be sent. Daella at least seems like an unlikely candidate from J&A's children to be sent there

It doesn’t really have to be I think. I’m sure, if Jaehaerys bribed the right people, he could make Daella’s stay there much more  leisurely than the typical sister. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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46 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It doesn’t really have to be I think. I’m sure, if Jaehaerys bribed the right people, he could make Daella’s stay there much more  leisurely than the typical sister. 

It is pretty clear that joining the silent sisters is a humiliation for highborn noblewoman or princess. It happens, but it is usually used as a punishment. Basically it seems to be the female version of the Wall. If you join the silent sisters you never leave them unlike, perhaps, when he become a mere septa.

It is utterly silly to pretend that Daella's only options in life were the life of a married woman, a septa, or a silent sister.

It is just as silly as to assume Vaegon had to become an archmaester. He could have just remained a pampered prince, doing nothing productive, like Aerys I and Rhaegel later did during the reign of their father.

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is pretty clear that joining the silent sisters is a humiliation for highborn noblewoman or princess. It happens, but it is usually used as a punishment. Basically it seems to be the female version of the Wall. If you join the silent sisters you never leave them unlike, perhaps, when he become a mere septa.

It is utterly silly to pretend that Daella's only options in life were the life of a married woman, a septa, or a silent sister.

It is just as silly as to assume Vaegon had to become an archmaester. He could have just remained a pampered prince, doing nothing productive, like Aerys I and Rhaegel later did during the reign of their father.

Duncan the Small also stayed in his father's court even after he was disinherited. You are right that there was no reason for Jaehaerys to force his children to get married or become maester/septon/septa/silent sister. He could have married them to someone who would never consummate the marriage and pretend like everything is ok.

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12 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Duncan the Small also stayed in his father's court even after he was disinherited. You are right that there was no reason for Jaehaerys to force his children to get married or become maester/septon/septa/silent sister. He could have married them to someone who would never consummate the marriage and pretend like everything is ok.

Prince Duncan wasn't disinherited as such, he merely gave up his claim to the Iron Throne. While he wed without the leave of his father the king said father did not use that as a pretext to cut ties with him and throw him out of the family - which one assumes Aegon V could have done and which many a monarch and nobleman has done in the real world in such cases - especially when their kin made morganatic marriages.

In fact, it is not unlikely that Aegon V made Duncan the Prince of Summerhall granting him and his wife and family said castle considering that Jaehaerys/Shaera got Dragonstone and Daeron would never have any children.

In the real middle ages monastic life (the equivalent of becoming a septa or silent sister) wouldn't be as ridiculous conventional or rigid as the lives of Rhaella and Maegelle indicate. Princesses and queens taking the veil in the real middle ages usually became powerful abbesses, ruling vast estates in their own right - and even those who didn't retained the privileges that came with their rank.

Having Rhaella and Maegelle and Saera serve with common novices - or following rules and regulations stipulated by the Faith - sounds pretty strange and seems to be the easy way out for George so that he doesn't have to invent any detailed stories for them - stories they certainly could have had even as septas. A septa-princess could technically continue her life the way before she took her vows if she so chose - depending on her personality.

In fact, it is also very strange that Rhaella, Maegelle, and Saera are sent to a motherhouse in Oldtown rather than a motherhouse in KL - the capital of the Seven Kingdoms should also have such an institution (at least in the times of Maegor and Jaehaerys I). In Rhaella's case Maegor's Hightower connection may have something to do with that, but technically it makes no sense to actually give a royal princess into the hands of a house as powerful as the Hightowers if you could just as well train her as a septa in your own city - and that way Jaehaerys I and Alysanne could also have spent more time with young Maegelle.

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Was Vaegon really forced to become a maester? And was Maegelle really forced to become a septa? Both seem to have been pretty happy with those fates. The roles suited their characters. 

I assumed the reason Maegelle was sent to Oldtown was because there wasn't a mother house in King's Landing, which was still a pretty young city at the time. Plus, the High Septon was still Oldtown, so religious life was probably centered there. 

Saera I think was a special case because of her behavior. Seems like that was more to reform her than to punish her. 

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