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[SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

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2 hours ago, Urien the Ragged said:

So, it's probably been discussed, but does the apoearance of Alyssa Targaryen, daughter of Jahaerys and Alysanne, pretty much prove Tyrion is the son of Aerys? Or is GRRM messing with us?

GRRM has said there are things that readers will find that are red herrings, and things that are not. Which those are are up to readers to decide for themselves.

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So, I've started to wonder if George has forshadowed the fates of Jon and Daynaerys. Aegon lived for threes days. Could 3 days be the length of Jons death? Danny dying via the shivers possibly hinting at danaerys becoming an ice queen character or simply being killed via ice magic?

Ultimately after finishing this half, Ive just found the lives of Jaheareys and his family to be incredibly tragic. Particularly characters like Rhaena and Alysanne. Like damn dude...talk about demoralizing stuff haha.

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On 1/11/2019 at 9:44 AM, Aemon Darkbrother said:

So, I've started to wonder if George has forshadowed the fates of Jon and Daynaerys. Aegon lived for threes days. Could 3 days be the length of Jons death? Danny dying via the shivers possibly hinting at danaerys becoming an ice queen character or simply being killed via ice magic?

This Aegon (Alysanne and Jaehaerys's) was one of eleven known Aegon Targaryens. I really doubt his fate means anything for Jon, no more than the fates of Aegon the Lord f Dragonstone, Kings Aegon one to five, Aegon the Uncrowned, or Rhaegar's Aegon. Plus, it is not even confirmed Jon's 'real' name is Aegon. This is show-only until further books prove otherwise.

And Daenerys's fate will probably be nothing like the first one's. Dany's not dying from Shivers or greyscale, nor is the Shivers some metaphor for ice and cold, no more than the winter fever is, or the Great Spring Sickness, or anything else. I think Prince Aeryn becoming Princess Daenerys had more to do with 'child of three' theme of Daenerys's story than anything else.

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30 minutes ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

And Daenerys's fate will probably be nothing like the first one's. Dany's not dying from Shivers or greyscale, nor is the Shivers some metaphor for ice and cold, no more than the winter fever is, or the Great Spring Sickness, or anything else. I think Prince Aeryn becoming Princess Daenerys had more to do with 'child of three' theme of Daenerys's story than anything else.

There was/is a parallel there, with Aegon and his sister-wives being the first 'three heads of the dragon' with Daenerys, Aemon, and Baelon foreshadowing the second triangle of dragon heads in the main series.

The first Daenerys was at the center of attention between her two brothers, much the same way our Dany is likely going to be in the center between her two other dragon heads. No idea whether the first Daenerys had married both her brothers - very unlikely, actually - but due to her early death that possibility was never even on the table.

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On 1/2/2019 at 10:40 PM, EvanSol919 said:

Does anyone else think that Alysanne was a bit hypocritical? 

She didn't seem to mind when Rhaena and her daughters were past over in the line of succession but when it's her female descendants, then she's in favor of equal primogeniture?

She was no lie made him seem flawed and really intriguing she flt who was born first should be placed on the thrown not by ability at first. I'm shocked J-man didn't tell her "look my love that's nice and all but if that was the case out father would have made our big sister Rhaena heir and not our big bro Aegon". I don't get why his response displeased her since Daerneays would have indeed been queen if she had lived. 

I don't like that she forget that in north of dorne male heirs would always come first.  

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On 12/8/2018 at 4:38 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

Alyssa Targaryen's (lazy) death is a symptom of everything wrong with F & B, which also kind of summarizes all the things wrong with ASOIAF. That being said, F & B is nonetheless a good (and useful) read.

Going back to Alyssa though, why couldn't GRRM have had her take an arrow to the knee or shoulder during the Fourth Dornish War and then die when the wound became infected? 

First time poster! I came back to his forum specifically to discuss this as no one in my life or on social media is interested enough in the ASOIAF universe.
I was excited and still am about F&B but I am disappointed with how some of the females were treated by the narrative and the inconsistencies that followed.
The Alyssa Velaryon we got in F&B is very different from the one in TWOIAF and she took a turn for the worse personality wise. I also feel like GRRM uses "death by childbirth" as a way of getting rid of female characters who he can't find a purpose for anymore instead of imagining something else a lot of times. Also his insistence on having so many child-brides go both against historical accuracy and what he has established in universe, when he has made it clear people and measters are aware young mothers tend to die and husbands who bed their very young wives are considered to be perverted. 

Not to mention how other ladies just got straight-up overlooked. Jocelyn Baratheon, anyone? It's the only opportunity we'll ever going to have to hear about them, so it just makes me sad for the missed opportunity and the wasted potential.

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On 12/5/2018 at 5:22 PM, Paxter Redwyne said:

Maybe they just enjoyed having sex even later in life, i dunno.

They had a fruitful and happy (for the most part) marriage so that is very likely, but we also have to keep in mind that when Alysanne expresses the wish to stop having children after the latest pregnancies have affected her health so much, even making the maesters fear for her life, Jaehaerys straight up ignores that and says "the gods" may have other plans for them. Zero personal responsibility taken and I can't understand how the Jaehaerys who refused to bed her when she was 13 because he feared for her life would do exactly that later in life, especially coming after their mother's death and the asswhop Rhaena gave Rogar Baratheon.
It's almost as if the narrative can't decide what point it wants to make.

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On 12/17/2018 at 7:05 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

As much as I like Alysanne, she is quite a hypocrite when it comes to her female family members. She champions Daenerys, and later Rhaenys, as the rightful queen due to her birth order, but seemingly forgets that Rhaena was older than Jaehaerys and should have therefore been crowned queen before him..

In Alysanne's defence the circumstances of Jaehaerys' being declared the rightful king are different and explain the situation quite well. Rhaena was being held captive together with her heirs, plus she married Maegor. When Rhaena escaped she decided to support her brother and did not press her claim. 
Also, it seems to be Rhaena herself did not want to rule. Yeah, I get the feeling she felt robbed of her Targaryen rights as the firstborn of the family, but I don't think she considered ruling the Seven Kingdoms as Queen Regnant to be one of those.

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9 hours ago, Ellaena said:

They had a fruitful and happy (for the most part) marriage so that is very likely, but we also have to keep in mind that when Alysanne expresses the wish to stop having children 

I'm not sure that's the only reading of her statement to Jaehaerys, that it's her expressing a wish to no longer have children. I think the context around it provides a reading that's nearer to the intent.

To me, her statement isn't that she didn't want to have more children, but that she believed that her age and recent results proved that any children she bore would not survive. In fact, note the word right before her statement: "The queen took his passing with resignation." This should color her words: she is speaking with resignation about the fact that she doesn't think she'll be able to bear healthy children anymore.

But resignation would mean that this was something undesirable to her, and so when Jaehaerys responds that the gods might not be done with their having children, this is him offering her support and hope against her sense of resignation. Her dismay later at being pregnant would obviously be out of concern for her health, and for that of her child, but that doesn't mean she didn't accept the possibility when she resumed relations.

That's my take on it, that it's not the nefarious situation some present. This is a woman who basically broke up with her husband twice, and a husband who was capable of letting estrangement from his wife last for months and months rather than trying to force her back, so it's quite hard to see why she would suddenly be unable to simply tell her husband to stay out of her bed. It doesn't seem to me to fit either character. 

 

Edited by Ran

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6 hours ago, Ellaena said:

In Alysanne's defence the circumstances of Jaehaerys' being declared the rightful king are different and explain the situation quite well.

She's also 12/13 when Maegor dies. Expecting to not only have a fully rounded opinion on the subject at that age or the expectation that anyone would take it seriously is a bit of a leap.

 

7 hours ago, Ellaena said:

Not to mention how other ladies just got straight-up overlooked. Jocelyn Baratheon, anyone? It's the only opportunity we'll ever going to have to hear about them, so it just makes me sad for the missed opportunity and the wasted potential.

Jocelyn was the wife of the heir who died pretty early, I'm not sure how much detail was warranted on her, especially if she no longer resided at court. Aemon's not really fleshed out either, especially as an adult. 

It's hard to critique the Jaehaerys chapters for overlooking females when the Queen, her daughters, Rhaena her daughter and Elissa were all key parts.

More focus was given to Elissa than Barth, Ryam and Baelon. 

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2 hours ago, Ran said:

I'm not sure that's the only reading of her statement to Jaehaerys, that it's her expressing a wish to no longer have children. I think the context around it provides a reading that's nearer to the intent.

To me, her statement isn't that she didn't want to have more children, but that she believed that her age and recent results proved that any children she bore would not survive. In fact, note the word right before her statement: "The queen took his passing with resignation." This should color her words: she is speaking with resignation about the fact that she doesn't think she'll be able to bear healthy children anymore.

But resignation would mean that this was something undesirable to her, and so when Jaehaerys responds that the gods might not be done with their having children, this is him offering her support and hope against her sense of resignation. Her dismay later at being pregnant would obviously be out of concern for her health, and for that of her child, but that doesn't mean she didn't accept the possibility when she resumed relations.

 

I see your point, but I don't think the text or the events that transpire in F&B support it fully. Now, let me be clear, I don't think Jaehaerys forced himself on Alysanne or that he would ever think to do that, but I think he can sometimes be quite insensitive to the wishes of the females in his family. I also think there are genuine inconsistencies in character behaviour sometimes.
The passage you cited goes : "The queen took his passing with resignation. I am forty-two years old, she told the king. You must be content with the children I have given you. I am more suited to be a grandmother than a mother now, I fear. King Jaehaerys did not share her certainty. Our mother, Queen Alyssa, was forty-six when she gave birth to Jocelyn, he pointed out to Gran Maester Elysar. The gods may not be done with us."

The fact that Jaehaerys brings up his mother's last pregnancy, you know, the one which killed her, to justify that Alysanne might still be able to produce healthy children is astounding to me. Yeah, she might be able to, but at what cost? And why is a book which has Rhaena give Rogar Baratheon an ass whopping for doing that exact thing treating Jaehaerys differently? It doesn't make much sense to me that the Jaehaerys who refused to bed Alysanne when she was 13 due to being afraid for her health and life and the Jaehaerys who saw the horrible way in which his mother died would then go on and do this later in life. 

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Jocelyn was the wife of the heir who died pretty early, I'm not sure how much detail was warranted on her, especially if she no longer resided at court. Aemon's not really fleshed out either, especially as an adult. 

How about an exit from the narrative? Where was she during the Great Council of 101? You would think she would at least be mentioned since it is her daughter's claim they are considering/passing over. Jocelyn is not just the wife of the heir apparent, she is also the King and Queen's sister and sister to Lord Baratheon. 

Don't get me wrong, I know we're not going to get a chapter about Jocelyn Baratheon/Targaryen, and that other male characters might not be very fleshed out, but at least they get a resolution. Meanwhile we are stuck reading about Coryanne Wylde's rumoured sexual life for pages, for which I am yet to find a purpose in the narrative. 

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6 minutes ago, Ellaena said:

How about an exit from the narrative? Where was she during the Great Council of 101? You would think she would at least be mentioned since it is her daughter's claim they are considering/passing over. Jocelyn is not just the wife of the heir apparent, she is also the King and Queen's sister and sister to Lord Baratheon. 

She's not a Lord/Lady, she'd have no say at the Grand Council. 

We hardly need the author mention that Jocelyn supported her own daughter's claim, that much should be obvious to the reader. There are only a few paragraphs on the whole event, Jocelyn's opinion was superfluous to Fire & Blood. 

If the whole event warranted its own chapter (I would have loved that) then more characters could have expressed their thoughts, but as it stands Jocelyn's opinion is not worthy to replace anything written in those paragraphs.

20 minutes ago, Ellaena said:



Don't get me wrong, I know we're not going to get a chapter about Jocelyn Baratheon/Targaryen, and that other male characters might not be very fleshed out, but at least they get a resolution. Meanwhile we are stuck reading about Coryanne Wylde's rumoured sexual life for pages, for which I am yet to find a purpose in the narrative. 

Yeah that part lost my interest, but it was GRRM fleshing out the world and a sign of Jaehaery's reign that the arts/literature were prospering under his reign.

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Jaehaerys not suggesting to Alysanne that they could continue to fuck but were under no obligation to produce more children is odd, just as Alysanne not coming to that conclusion when she has more and more children that simply do not live.

It is clear, though, that neither of them had any real intention to stop trying to have children. They wanted their sex to produce children.

I mean, we do have George telling us that moon tea is pretty much a perfect birth control method and a pretty good abortifacient as well. Yet apparently pretty much no noblewoman already having an army of children or approaching an age in which pregnancies become ever riskier for both the women and the unborn children is using it on a regular basis.

Not even whores seem to use it - Shae may have it (or Tyrion is sterile/has severe fertility issues), and possibly some of Chataya's girls, but the mother of Barra obviously didn't have access to it.

The dichotomy between pretty good birth control methods and this idea that pregnancies seem to happen as often as they did in the real world when we had no good birth control methods (and that the pregnancies are much riskier for the mothers in Westeros than they are in the real world) is a vexing reading experience.

Even more since it is clear that the high and mighty would have had no difficulties getting access to both moon tea and the best medical care.

Why didn't anyone resort to blood magic to save the lives of Daella and Alyssa Targaryen? They were the blood of the dragon, after all. Alysanne is devastated when the health of Daella declines, and Baelon was so in love with his sister, so he, too, should have tried to do anything to save her.

And, sure, especially Alyssa could have easily enough died in any other manner - if she had to predecease Baelon at all. She could have easily enough lived into the reign of her son, just as Alysanne could have outlived Jaehaerys.

8 hours ago, Ellaena said:

In Alysanne's defence the circumstances of Jaehaerys' being declared the rightful king are different and explain the situation quite well. Rhaena was being held captive together with her heirs, plus she married Maegor. When Rhaena escaped she decided to support her brother and did not press her claim. 
Also, it seems to be Rhaena herself did not want to rule. Yeah, I get the feeling she felt robbed of her Targaryen rights as the firstborn of the family, but I don't think she considered ruling the Seven Kingdoms as Queen Regnant to be one of those.

As I think I lay out above somewhere there is no hypocrisy in trying to change things when you can. Nymeria succeeding Mors and Nymeria's oldest daughter by Mors succeeding her is also not hypocritical towards Mors older sister or aunt. Sometimes laws and customs and situations change, and that does not necessarily happen retroactively. Corlys Velaryon's later advice that Rhaenyra, despite her being a Queen Regnant, does not grant Rosby and Stokeworth to the elder daughters is stupid advice since such decisions do not necessarily affect others nor enfold legal force retroactively.

If Viserys I's choice for Rhaenyra had had legal force retroactively he himself would have lost his crown and throne which would have then gone to Princess Rhaenys.

Originally Rhaena did want to leave court and return to Fair Isle - and she was happy there until Lord Farman died. But even then there were people who spoke for Rhaena's claim and the claim of Rhaena's daughters - Princess Alysanne may have very well be one of them. That their claims were actually discussed is pretty interesting in itself because that implies that Prince Jaehaerys' public proclamation to claim the throne at Storm's End did not yet make him the only possible pretender for his (later) followers. Rhaena and Aerea were at that this time still in Maegor's power and the people proclaiming/declaring for Jaehaerys could not know/foresee that Rhaena and Aerea would survive the coming struggles against Maegor. Rhaena and her daughter could have been easily executed by Maegor in response to Jaehaerys' declaration.

In that sense the question who would be crowned after Maegor would actually have been decided after Alyssa and Rogar reached KL.

Later on Rhaena seems to have started to resent her status as a widowed beggar, basically, and the lesser rank/prominence she held now in comparison to her baby brother. George/Gyldayn really stress Rhaena's importance and prominence as eldest grandchild of the Conqueror whereas Jaehaerys and Alysanne feature apparently very little in contemporary court records. It could not have been easy for her to experience that change. And when she moved to Dragonstone chances are that she felt the way her daughter was treated by Jaehaerys/Alysanne less than ideal. She could not reconnect with her, of course - which is a strong sign that the 'Aerea' returning to KL was actually Rhaella, not the real Aerea. After all, the real Aerea would have lived with Rhaena and Maegor at court and would have been saved from her cruel granduncle by her mother and her dragon. The flight on Dreamfyre alone should have allowed mother and daughter to establish a link they could have continued on later - but Rhaella was just dumped at Oldtown and only saw her mother again in a meaningful manner when she commanded her to accompany her to Dragonstone.

Rhaena encouraging Aerea to claim a dragon is a strong sign that she wanted her daughter in a strong position to later make a bid for the throne. Either by demanding to marry Jaehaerys' heir, or by trying to push him aside with a strong prince or lord at her side.

Jocelyn's treatment just makes no sense. Not that she would have needed or necessarily deserved as a great story of her own, but some mentioning of her death would have been warranted.

Especially since Borros' silly remarks seem to imply she did not retire to Storm's End. Else he would have known her personally - or at least would have been unable to claim he did not know her.

But overall, FaB is just very unbalanced around the time Jaehaerys I grows old and dies. The amount of detail we get earlier and later is much higher. Jocelyn suffers from that, the various dragons and how they are claimed suffer from that, too (Dreamfyre is apparently riderless from Rhaena to Helaena, and it would have been great to see how the latter claimed her).

And it is, of course, very obvious that Aemon and Jocelyn and Baelon and even Barth and some of the other councilmen should have at least deserved as much coverage (or even more) as a person as insignificant as Coryanne Wylde or even Lord Rogar's younger brothers. Why does Orryn get a footnote covering his death and the mother of Princess Rhaenys does not?

A similar weakness can be seen in the transition from TSotD to the Jaehaery material. The Baratheons just pop into existence with no coverage of their background and deeds under Maegor and Aenys, nor is told how and where Alyssa and the children hid once they fled Dragonstone. We should have gotten more about that (not very detailed but at least some hints how they fled, where they went, and how they ended up at Storm's End). Jaehaerys later is described as being opposed to his mother's second marriage, but in a sense Lord Rogar must have been a second father to him if they actually moved to Storm's End immediately when they fled Dragonstone. Jaehaerys was ten in 44 AC, and Alysanne only eight.

In that sense, a more realistic depiction there would have been Jaehaerys emancipating himself from his step-dad when the man was finally trying to officially formalizing that role, rather than this being presented as Rogar trying to establish his dominion over the young king. The time when Jaehaerys was under Rogar's thumb would have been while Maegor was still king, not when the king's majority was fast approaching.

Also, the entire marriage conundrum could have had roots in those years before 48 AC, too. One should imagine that Alyssa had already to pay a price when Rogar first took her in - Alysanne's hand to his youngest brother when she was old enough, say, in addition to her own hand to Lord Rogar, of course - and then the Jaehaerys-Alysanne marriage would have been actually a considerable betrayal of trust from their side.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaehaerys not suggesting to Alysanne that they could continue to fuck but were under no obligation to produce more children is odd, just as Alysanne not coming to that conclusion when she has more and more children that simply do not live.

It is clear, though, that neither of them had any real intention to stop trying to have children. They wanted their sex to produce children.

I mean, we do have George telling us that moon tea is pretty much a perfect birth control method and a pretty good abortifacient as well. Yet apparently pretty much no noblewoman already having an army of children or approaching an age in which pregnancies become ever riskier for both the women and the unborn children is using it on a regular basis.

Not even whores seem to use it - Shae may have it (or Tyrion is sterile/has severe fertility issues), and possibly some of Chataya's girls, but the mother of Barra obviously didn't have access to it.

The dichotomy between pretty good birth control methods and this idea that pregnancies seem to happen as often as they did in the real world when we had no good birth control methods (and that the pregnancies are much riskier for the mothers in Westeros than they are in the real world) is a vexing reading experience.

Even more since it is clear that the high and mighty would have had no difficulties getting access to both moon tea and the best medical care.

Why didn't anyone resort to blood magic to save the lives of Daella and Alyssa Targaryen? They were the blood of the dragon, after all. Alysanne is devastated when the health of Daella declines, and Baelon was so in love with his sister, so he, too, should have tried to do anything to save her.

And, sure, especially Alyssa could have easily enough died in any other manner - if she had to predecease Baelon at all. She could have easily enough lived into the reign of her son, just as Alysanne could have outlived Jaehaerys.

As I think I lay out above somewhere there is no hypocrisy in trying to change things when you can. Nymeria succeeding Mors and Nymeria's oldest daughter by Mors succeeding her is also not hypocritical towards Mors older sister or aunt. Sometimes laws and customs and situations change, and that does not necessarily happen retroactively. Corlys Velaryon's later advice that Rhaenyra, despite her being a Queen Regnant, does not grant Rosby and Stokeworth to the elder daughters is stupid advice since such decisions do not necessarily affect others nor enfold legal force retroactively.

If Viserys I's choice for Rhaenyra had had legal force retroactively he himself would have lost his crown and throne which would have then gone to Princess Rhaenys.

Originally Rhaena did want to leave court and return to Fair Isle - and she was happy there until Lord Farman died. But even then there were people who spoke for Rhaena's claim and the claim of Rhaena's daughters - Princess Alysanne may have very well be one of them. That their claims were actually discussed is pretty interesting in itself because that implies that Prince Jaehaerys' public proclamation to claim the throne at Storm's End did not yet make him the only possible pretender for his (later) followers. Rhaena and Aerea were at that this time still in Maegor's power and the people proclaiming/declaring for Jaehaerys could not know/foresee that Rhaena and Aerea would survive the coming struggles against Maegor. Rhaena and her daughter could have been easily executed by Maegor in response to Jaehaerys' declaration.

In that sense the question who would be crowned after Maegor would actually have been decided after Alyssa and Rogar reached KL.

Later on Rhaena seems to have started to resent her status as a widowed beggar, basically, and the lesser rank/prominence she held now in comparison to her baby brother. George/Gyldayn really stress Rhaena's importance and prominence as eldest grandchild of the Conqueror whereas Jaehaerys and Alysanne feature apparently very little in contemporary court records. It could not have been easy for her to experience that change. And when she moved to Dragonstone chances are that she felt the way her daughter was treated by Jaehaerys/Alysanne less than ideal. She could not reconnect with her, of course - which is a strong sign that the 'Aerea' returning to KL was actually Rhaella, not the real Aerea. After all, the real Aerea would have lived with Rhaena and Maegor at court and would have been saved from her cruel granduncle by her mother and her dragon. The flight on Dreamfyre alone should have allowed mother and daughter to establish a link they could have continued on later - but Rhaella was just dumped at Oldtown and only saw her mother again in a meaningful manner when she commanded her to accompany her to Dragonstone.

Rhaena encouraging Aerea to claim a dragon is a strong sign that she wanted her daughter in a strong position to later make a bid for the throne. Either by demanding to marry Jaehaerys' heir, or by trying to push him aside with a strong prince or lord at her side.

Jocelyn's treatment just makes no sense. Not that she would have needed or necessarily deserved as a great story of her own, but some mentioning of her death would have been warranted.

Especially since Borros' silly remarks seem to imply she did not retire to Storm's End. Else he would have known her personally - or at least would have been unable to claim he did not know her.

But overall, FaB is just very unbalanced around the time Jaehaerys I grows old and dies. The amount of detail we get earlier and later is much higher. Jocelyn suffers from that, the various dragons and how they are claimed suffer from that, too (Dreamfyre is apparently riderless from Rhaena to Helaena, and it would have been great to see how the latter claimed her).

And it is, of course, very obvious that Aemon and Jocelyn and Baelon and even Barth and some of the other councilmen should have at least deserved as much coverage (or even more) as a person as insignificant as Coryanne Wylde or even Lord Rogar's younger brothers. Why does Orryn get a footnote covering his death and the mother of Princess Rhaenys does not?

A similar weakness can be seen in the transition from TSotD to the Jaehaery material. The Baratheons just pop into existence with no coverage of their background and deeds under Maegor and Aenys, nor is told how and where Alyssa and the children hid once they fled Dragonstone. We should have gotten more about that (not very detailed but at least some hints how they fled, where they went, and how they ended up at Storm's End). Jaehaerys later is described as being opposed to his mother's second marriage, but in a sense Lord Rogar must have been a second father to him if they actually moved to Storm's End immediately when they fled Dragonstone. Jaehaerys was ten in 44 AC, and Alysanne only eight.

In that sense, a more realistic depiction there would have been Jaehaerys emancipating himself from his step-dad when the man was finally trying to officially formalizing that role, rather than this being presented as Rogar trying to establish his dominion over the young king. The time when Jaehaerys was under Rogar's thumb would have been while Maegor was still king, not when the king's majority was fast approaching.

Also, the entire marriage conundrum could have had roots in those years before 48 AC, too. One should imagine that Alyssa had already to pay a price when Rogar first took her in - Alysanne's hand to his youngest brother when she was old enough, say, in addition to her own hand to Lord Rogar, of course - and then the Jaehaerys-Alysanne marriage would have been actually a considerable betrayal of trust from their side.

I think GRRM ireally struggles with this sort of minutae, get him on food and he's fine, but stuff like this? He's not very good at it.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Jocelyn's treatment just makes no sense. Not that she would have needed or necessarily deserved as a great story of her own, but some mentioning of her death would have been warranted.

Especially since Borros' silly remarks seem to imply she did not retire to Storm's End. Else he would have known her personally - or at least would have been unable to claim he did not know her.

Thank you, you put this better than I could. I also agree with your subsequent point, especially where Septon Barth is concerned.

Now, we could make the point that Gyldayn is a maester living in a pretty patriarchal society and due to that he tends to overlook the ladies, although he is rather very interested in the sex lives of teenage girls and writes about it extensively. But as I previously said, as far as we know now this is the only time we will get the opportunity to know details about the lives of these ladies and how they influenced the family dynamic (same with some of the men), so I felt a little bit cheated. 

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8 minutes ago, VVSINGOFTHECROSS said:

I think GRRM ireally struggles with this sort of minutae, get him on food and he's fine, but stuff like this? He's not very good at it.

Oh, George did a really fine work to add new interesting details to Rhaena in TSotD. He could have done with the HotD material, too.

He apparently was not willing to do that, and that affects the overall quality of the book.

You can feel and see that this book was not written from cover to cover but is a piecemeal tapestry. The feeling of the Jaehaerys material should have been carried on to the Viserys I material. And, perhaps, TSotD should not have gotten an overhaul on Rhaena and Aegon the Uncrowned but also in relation to the Baratheons.

Nowhere do you see the difference in tone and conception better than in the name-dropping of Septon Moon in TSotD and then the conceptually unwarranted decision to treat his downfall as important enough to cover entire pages. Compare that this to the fact that there is no new information on Alyssa and the children after their flight, not even when Gyldayn covers Alysanne's childhood in some detail and you see this imbalance. Also with the sudden appearance of Donnel the Delayer and the Baratheon gang. They cannot have been as invisible as they seem to appear in TSotD.

Rogar certainly would have ridden with Orys and Davos (who may have been his father) against the Vulture King.

If you write such a book not from cover to cover you still have to make it look as if the historian who supposedly wrote that thing did write it from cover to cover. He would also have had a conceptual plan how to do this. It would not look as if some (insignificant) character just arbitrarily got more coverage than, say, a great king like Aegon I.

7 minutes ago, Ellaena said:

Now, we could make the point that Gyldayn is a maester living in a pretty patriarchal society and due to that he tends to overlook the ladies, although he is rather very interested in the sex lives of teenage girls and writes about it extensively. But as I previously said, as far as we know now this is the only time we will get the opportunity to know details about the lives of these ladies and how they influenced the family dynamic (same with some of the men), so I felt a little bit cheated. 

While I like the Coryanne Wylde thing - I really think George means to imply there that Gyldayn got one of his links in history by doing an exam over Coryanne Wylde's little book - I definitely don't like it when obviously key characters of historical importance just disappear.

It is not just Jocelyn, it is also Septa Rhaella (who could have been at the Great Council) and Archmaester Vaegon. While he likely died somewhere during the reign of Viserys I it would have been nice when and how he died, and actually expected that Archmaester Gyldayn would actually care enough about the only archmaester House Targaryen produced to mention the time and manner of his passing - and perhaps also some of his accomplishments at the Citadel.

Keep in mind that Lyonel Strong trained at the Citadel, too. He could have been influenced by Vaegon's teachings, not to mention that Vaegon could have been close to the learned Otto Hightower, urging his ailing father to make Ser Otto his last Hand when he spoke with him before, during, and after the Great Council.

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11 hours ago, Ellaena said:

In Alysanne's defence the circumstances of Jaehaerys' being declared the rightful king are different and explain the situation quite well. Rhaena was being held captive together with her heirs, plus she married Maegor. When Rhaena escaped she decided to support her brother and did not press her claim. 
Also, it seems to be Rhaena herself did not want to rule. Yeah, I get the feeling she felt robbed of her Targaryen rights as the firstborn of the family, but I don't think she considered ruling the Seven Kingdoms as Queen Regnant to be one of those.

That ship sailed long ago. Aegon had already unquestionably been made heir over his older sister Rhaena. And let's not forget Aegon being lord and later king over his elder sister Visenya. And all the male Lords of Dragonstone over the century between them fleeing to Dragonstone and conquering Westeros. There is no precedent for defending Rhaena's or Alysanne's delusion that a daughter or sister would come before a son or a brother.

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3 hours ago, Ellaena said:


The fact that Jaehaerys brings up his mother's last pregnancy, you know, the one which killed her, to justify that Alysanne might still be able to produce healthy children is astounding to me.

Neither Jaehaerys nor Alysanne ever showed disapproval of Alyssa's pregnancy, however. I think what you have in both Jaehaerys and Alyssa are fairly pious believers in the Faith, and obviously the holy union of marriage is there with the intent of procreation. 

3 hours ago, Ellaena said:

Yeah, she might be able to, but at what cost? And why is a book which has Rhaena give Rogar Baratheon an ass whopping for doing that exact thing treating Jaehaerys differently?

Rhaena is not presented as being in the right or as being fair. Her argument removes all agency from her mother, for one thing. She's hurt and angry and that's what she says, and one can empathize, but her viewpoint is not the same thing as Jaehaerys and Alysanne's viewpoint.

3 hours ago, Ellaena said:

It doesn't make much sense to me that the Jaehaerys who refused to bed Alysanne when she was 13 due to being afraid for her health and life and the Jaehaerys who saw the horrible way in which his mother died would then go on and do this later in life. 

And are we now to remove agency from Alysanne? Because it seems you're arguing that Jaehaerys proceeded to coerce Alysanne against her will to explain her pregnancy, a notion that is absolutely not evident in their later life together.  

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