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[SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne


Lord Varys

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4 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

That ship sailed long ago. Aegon had already unquestionably been made heir over his older sister Rhaena. And let's not forget Aegon being lord and later king over his elder sister Visenya. And all the male Lords of Dragonstone over the century between them fleeing to Dragonstone and conquering Westeros. There is no precedent for defending Rhaena's or Alysanne's delusion that a daughter or sister would come before a son or a brother.

I don't think Rhaena was under the impression she should have been Queen Regnant, but I do get the feeling she later felt she has been denied some of her birthright as Queen Consort since she was the firstborn daughter of the family, and that her daughters were later glossed over in the succession. Anyway, Jaehaerys' declaration as king was the result of the current circumstances and made sense, and it wasn't purely based on the fact he was the next male in line.

And in Alysanne case, I think it all came down to the fact she truly believed women and men to be equal and thought her husband was of the same opinion, not that she thought there was some precedent to follow.

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9 minutes ago, Ran said:

And are we now to remove agency from Alysanne? Because it seems you're arguing that Jaehaerys proceeded to coerce Alysanne against her will to explain her pregnancy, a notion that is absolutely not evident in their later life together.  

No, I am not trying to make the point any foul play was at hand. Just pointing out the inconsistency in Jaehaerys' behaviour, both based on his previous behaviour and what the narrative has given us, since we know that Jaehaerys is not the kind to be forcing himself on his wife, or put her at risk, or Alysanne the type of woman to not make her mind known (which she has). 

So the only logical explanation for their bizarre behaviour is "the author wanted/needed them to behave this way", especially considering what the story has given us by that point.

To give you another example of bizarre behaviour going against previously established things, let's look at Alysanne's attendance of 11 year old Aemma Arryn's wedding. If she voiced her opinion about it, the story doesn't tell us, but we know she attended the wedding, which is weird considering the rift caused by Daella's death.

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31 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

That ship sailed long ago. Aegon had already unquestionably been made heir over his older sister Rhaena. And let's not forget Aegon being lord and later king over his elder sister Visenya. And all the male Lords of Dragonstone over the century between them fleeing to Dragonstone and conquering Westeros. There is no precedent for defending Rhaena's or Alysanne's delusion that a daughter or sister would come before a son or a brother.

There is an obvious undercurrent of people believing in equal primogeniture, or else nobody would have spoken for Rhaena in 48 AC, for Rhaenys in 92 AC, for Laena (in addition to both Rhaenys and Laenor) in 101 AC, for Rhaenyra in 105 and 129 AC, for Daena in 171 AC, and for Aelora in 217 AC - who was then named Princess of Dragonstone and heir to the Iron Throne by Aerys I.

It is clearly not the majority opinion but it is not outlandish, either. And we will see it in the main series again should Myrcella, Sansa, or Daenerys claim against various rival male pretenders.

This is clearly not a delusion, especially not when powerful members of the royal family espouse such views.

If Jaehaerys I had predeceased Alysanne we can be pretty sure that Alysanne would have forced the Realm to accept her views on the succession, with blood and fire if necessary.

Just as chances are not that bad that Rhaena may pushed Aerea to succeed her brother had Jaehaerys rather than Daenerys been carried away by the Shivers, say, and Aerea had still been alive at that time.

28 minutes ago, Ran said:

Neither Jaehaerys nor Alysanne ever showed disapproval of Alyssa's pregnancy, however. I think what you have in both Jaehaerys and Alyssa are fairly pious believers in the Faith, and obviously the holy union of marriage is there with the intent of procreation.

Their views are not given. What's given repeatedly, however, is the general sentiment of concern when Alyssa gets pregnant by Lord Robar. And how much both Jaehaerys and Alysanne cared about their dear mother in the wake of the trouble she made over their marriage is not clear. We have ample evidence that Jaehaerys no longer got along with her, meaning that he may not have been particularly sad when she died.

They may have believed that married couples should produce children and perhaps even that vaginal intercourse was supposed to be doing that rather than give them pleasure without much consequence, but I don't think we can cite piety as influencing Alysanne and Jaehaerys all that much there. Religion and piety had no effect on their incestuous relationship, nor their willingness to arrange such unions for their own children. It also did not stay their hand when they intimidated and corrupted the Most Devout to choose their pet as new High Septon, not to mention the entire invention of the Doctrine of Exceptionalism. And Alyssa Velaryon is not all that pious, either. Gyldayn is explicitly of the opinion that Alyssa once would have wanted Jaehaerys to marry Alysanne just as Aegon had married Rhaena. What caused her to change her views is not she realizing that incestuous marriages are wrong but rather the troubles the marriage of Aegon and Rhaena caused for House Targaryen.

And since we don't know how much emphasis the Faith has on marriage and the function and role of sex compared to, say, the First Men (Lord Cregan goes on record stating that women should keep their maidenhead for their husbands) I'd say the Faith is certainly not the only source/supporter of such views.

28 minutes ago, Ran said:

Rhaena is not presented as being in the right or as being fair. Her argument removes all agency from her mother, for one thing. She's hurt and angry and that's what she says, and one can empathize, but her viewpoint is not the same thing as Jaehaerys and Alysanne's viewpoint.

We don't know whether Alyssa Velaryon was permitted any agency in her 'restored marriage' after she had been commanded to go to Storm's End. The king had commanded Lord Rogar to continue his marriage, and that includes sexual intercourse with his wife. There is no indication whether Alyssa Velaryon was asked whether she wanted that, nor whether she wanted to go to Storm's End. And we can be reasonably sure that a man as proud as Lord Rogar would never forget the public humiliation his 'weak wife' dealt him when she dismissed him as Hand. Even more so a man who was never actually in love with this wife of his but married her only for advancement and status. Rogar would have made Alyssa feel what she did to him for the rest of her life - we even see a reflection of that in the condition her dear husband keeps her when her death approaches (she doesn't seem to reside in a bedchamber deserving of her station, nor is said bedchamber kept clean and tidy).

It is true that Gyldayn tells us Boremund's birth changed Rogar's approach to his wife somewhat, but this isn't the same as them becoming a loving couple.

It is certainly possible that Alyssa rediscovered her love for Lord Rogar - but in light of how she treated her dear husband during the crisis makes it not unlikely that this was not the case. And then Jaehaerys I may have just been rather cruel, forcing his mother to eat (and choke to death) on the meal she had made herself when she presumed to take another husband without his consent.

One can be cruel without actually appearing cruel - even more so when one is cruel to women in a world run by men.

28 minutes ago, Ran said:

And are we now to remove agency from Alysanne? Because it seems you're arguing that Jaehaerys proceeded to coerce Alysanne against her will to explain her pregnancy, a notion that is absolutely not evident in their later life together.  

It is clear that neither of them thought of/decided to use moon tea. And it certainly is odd that a man loving his wife very much who already had had live through twelve pregnancies would want her to have a thirteenth - and that in a world where there seems to be actually better chemical birth control than in our modern world. As far as we know you don't have to drink moon tea every single day to prevent a pregnancy...

We have no reason to believe that Jaehaerys forced himself on Alysanne against her will when they had Gaemon and Valerion and Gael - but it is odd that the author doesn't actually give us a proper explanation why they felt the need to continue to have children in light of the fact that this kind of thing killed their mother.

Keep in mind that both Daella and Alyssa were still around when Gael was born in 80 AC - this means Jaehaerys I still had Aemon, Baelon, Alyssa, Daella, Saera, and Viserra as his immediate heirs - in addition to young Rhaenys and Viserys and Maegelle and Vaegon who were (would be) eventually be bound by vows.

One wonders why Jaehaerys and Alysanne may have considered the risk for her life to be less important than the chance that may get another (and by that time rather superfluous) heir...

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46 minutes ago, Ellaena said:

To give you another example of bizarre behaviour going against previously established things, let's look at Alysanne's attendance of 11 year old Aemma Arryn's wedding. If she voiced her opinion about it, the story doesn't tell us, but we know she attended the wedding, which is weird considering the rift caused by Daella's death.

It is even weirder that they arranged as silly a marriage as that of 16-year-old Viserys and 11-year-old Aemma. A betrothal, sure, but a marriage with that age gap at that point? What was the reason for this? It would have been great to know.

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51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is even weirder that they arranged as silly a marriage as that of 16-year-old Viserys and 11-year-old Aemma. A betrothal, sure, but a marriage with that age gap at that point? What was the reason for this? It would have been great to know.

Exactly my point. There is no dynastic reason I can think of or that we know of. Her mother died in childbirth and caused a rift between the Queen and King because Alysanne thought Daella was pushed into marriage too early. The fact that Alysanne then attends the wedding of 11 year old Aemma is weird. Maybe she did voice her disapproval, but what better way of showing that than not attending the wedding? Or was she ok with it? It's not like Viserys waited until a safer age to bed her, 13 is hardly developed, and it is the exact age Alysanne was when Jaehaerys wed her but refused to bed her out of concerns for her health.
The maesters seemed to have voiced their concerns only after the repeated miscarriages. 

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It seems odd that Viserys (born in 77) did not marry Viserra (born in 71),Gael (born in 80) or Alicent Hightower. Viserra probably would find her nephew a good match for her and a way to get closer to the throne. Plus she forgets Baelon who doesn't seem to want a second wedding.

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Gael was clearly not intended to be married off to anyone, doubtless due to her being frail and simple-minded. Viserra's death before Viserys married would preclude her from marrying Viserys, and in any case we have in the past discussed the fact that Alysanne seemed concerned by Viserra's ambition and didn't want her to remain at court (or, alternatively, that Alysanne was allegedly jealous of Viserra's beauty and charm and wanted her away from court for that reason), and Alicent Hightower was a 7-year-old when Viserys married, even further from maidenhood than Aemma.

I would guess it was for political reasons more than anything. Look around at who may have been pressing for a marriage to the eligible young bachelor, and figure out why the Targaryens would have preferred to avoid any issues by marrying Viserys off to a cousin. Alternatively, perhaps Lord Arryn offered an exorbitant dowry, and better to lock Viserys in as soon as he was an adult. 

I mean, these are speculative, but one can certainly come up with reasonable speculative reasons for why that marriage happened when it did, and why some other marriage didn't happen.

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That the younger daughters don't come up as potential matches for the grandsons is indeed pretty odd. Considering at what ages Jaehaerys and Alysanne (and Rhaenyra later on) arranged matches for their (older) children it is very odd that nobody cared to make a match for the grandchildren - or that George did not care to address the fact that Viserra and Gael would have made very fine matches for both Viserys and Daemon.

I mean, he could have told exactly the same story and still include such details. He also entertained us with the failed Vaegon-Daella betrothal, so a proper background for Viserra's infatuation with Baelon could actually have been her being betrothed to her nephew Viserys and thus spending more time with Viserys and Baelon than any of the other younger children. Then both the age gap and Viserys' less than impressive character could have caused her to really look at Baelon as a future spouse, especially after Alyssa's death.

And Gael-Daemon could have been a betrothal among toddlers, slowly disappearing when it became clear that Gael wasn't showing much promise or was high-jacked by Alysanne who wanted to care for her and give her company in her grief/old age.

It is good that George took some time on the marriage of Rhaenys and Corlys, but that was not enough.

As for Aemma-Viserys:

We have speculated a lot about that long before FaB came out, and there are a number of reasons as to why such a match could have been politically relevant - Baelon needing/wanting Arryn support to counter the Baratheon support the Velaryons might get if the issue of the succession were to be resolved violently.

George could also have had Jaehaerys getting second thoughts on the succession after Laena's birth, triggering Baelon to insist that Viserys give him grandchildren sooner rather than later so that dad did not look to Rhaenys as the more promising line.

A very interesting way to lay the groundwork for the Aemma-Viserys thing could also have been Alysanne effectively taking infant Aemma as her ward immediately after her birth. She punished Lord Rodrik already by burying Daella on Dragonstone, claiming the child as well would only have been the next step. As a royal ward Aemma would have been raised at court where she could have developed a liking for her cousin Viserys - despite the age gap. Alyssa could have grown close to her niece, too, and both Viserys and Aemma could have been devastated when she died, etc.

Such a move could also have made her a dragonrider - which she should have been able to be as the daughter of a Targaryen princess. If she had claimed, say, Dreamfyre as a girl of ten this could also have triggered an additional desire to keep her in the family.

Aemma Arryn is another huge letdown in the book. She is one of the palest character in the entire book. We know nothing about her, personally, not even how she looked like.

Even Viserys and Daemon are very odd characters thanks to the fact that FaB failed to cover their childhood and youth in any way. Both could have much more depth - but especially Daemon - if we had known what the guy did in his childhood and youth and how he did get along with his father, brother, cousin, and grandparents.

As for Alicent:

As the obscure daughter of a younger son of the Lord of Oldtown Alicent Hightower would never have been a likely match for a prince who had recently become second in line to the Iron Throne. Alicent only became Viserys' wife because Otto brought her to court and she apparently seduced him.

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The mere fact we have to guess why a king's marriage took place to begin with does not do F & B V1 any favors.

Honestly, F & B V1 is so unbalanced I don't hesitate to say that it is, in fact, NOT a complete history of House Targaryen from 2 BC-136 AC.

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41 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

The mere fact we have to guess why a king's marriage took place to begin with does not do F & B V1 any favors.

Honestly, F & B V1 is so unbalanced I don't hesitate to say that it is, in fact, NOT a complete history of House Targaryen from 2 BC-136 AC.

No Tourney of the Field of Roses :(

greatest tourney of a generation but it seems grrm just made it up to make highgarden seem interesting

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11 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Since Alicent was 18 in 106 AC, she must have been 5 at the time of Viserys's wedding in 93 AC.

That's why I shouldn't do math right before falling asleep. But yes.

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8 hours ago, Mrs.Grumpy said:

No Tourney of the Field of Roses :(

greatest tourney of a generation but it seems grrm just made it up to make highgarden seem interesting

There will have been 3, maybe 4 'greatest tourney of a generation' during Jaehaery's reign. Not all are going to be mentioned, especially if nothing politically significant happened.

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2 hours ago, Ran said:

That's why I shouldn't do math right before falling asleep. But yes.

I just looked in the text again, and there might be a reason why you got confused about Alicent's age:

As his new Hand, he called upon Ser Otto Hightower, younger brother to Lord Hightower of Oldtown. Ser Otto brought his wife and children to court with him, and served King Jaehaerys faithfully for the years remaining to him. As the Old King’s strength and wits began to fail, he was oft confined to his bed. Ser Otto’s precocious fifteen-year-old daughter, Alicent, became his constant companion, fetching His Grace his meals, reading to him, helping him to bathe and dress himself. The Old King sometimes mistook her for one of his daughters, calling her by their names; near the end, he grew certain she was his daughter Saera, returned to him from beyond the narrow sea.

This makes it sound as Alicent was 15 in 101 AC (I even think it is the conclusion you would come to based on the text).

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12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

George could also have had Jaehaerys getting second thoughts on the succession after Laena's birth, triggering Baelon to insist that Viserys give him grandchildren sooner rather than later so that dad did not look to Rhaenys as the more promising line.

Wasn't Laena too young at the time? I mean she was quite young when she was being considered to become Queen after Aemma died. She didn't have children of her own until after Viserys was king and his first wife died.

 

Later edit: forget this, I just didn't properly read your sentence.

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1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I just looked in the text again, and there might be a reason why you got confused about Alicent's age:

This makes it sound as Alicent was 15 in 101 AC (I even think it is the conclusion you would come to based on the text).

I think that was what I was looking at when I did the math, yeah. It seems then that in fact she helped care for Jaehaerys only in his final year, 103 AC, when she was 15 -- presumably before that she was at court but not actively involved in providing him companionship and help. 

In any case, getting off topic. The point stands that Alicent was certainly not of an age to be a wife for Viserys, and we can see reasons why some of his other kin were considered suitable, leaving Aemma.

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Aemma was a very good match but if she was like her mother then pregnancy would be difficult to her (and it was). The same thoughts come to Catelyn Stark about whether Roslin would be healthy enough to bear children due to her Rosby heritage. Alicent is younger  but she seems healthier and Viserys could just wait to consumate the wedding. Later it was proved that she had no problem with pregnancy.

 

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15 minutes ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Aemma was a very good match but if she was like her mother then pregnancy would be difficult to her (and it was). The same thoughts come to Catelyn Stark about whether Roslin would be healthy enough to bear children due to her Rosby heritage. Alicent is younger  but she seems healthier and Viserys could just wait to consumate the wedding. Later it was proved that she had no problem with pregnancy.

 

If she was 5 when he married Aemma, that'd mean 7+ years of waiting just to consummate, and possibly 9+ years to actually try and get progeny. And as noted, Alcent is not exactly a great match -- daughter of a younger son/sibling of Lord Hightower, whereas Aemma is a cousin and daughter of Lord Arryn, sister to his heir. Fine, her father is Hand of the King, but that's not excactly something that would necessarily always be the case.

I expect there were other women in Westeros who would have been a better choice than Alicent, in any case, but none of them were part-Targaryen.

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37 minutes ago, Ran said:

If she was 5 when he married Aemma, that'd mean 7+ years of waiting just to consummate, and possibly 9+ years to actually try and get progeny. And as noted, Alcent is not exactly a great match -- daughter of a younger son/sibling of Lord Hightower, whereas Aemma is a cousin and daughter of Lord Arryn, sister to his heir. Fine, her father is Hand of the King, but that's not excactly something that would necessarily always be the case.

And didn't Otto only become Hand after the death of Baelon in 101 AC? If so, Viserys and Aemma had already been wed almost a decade by that point, and Rhaenyra was already a few years old.

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33 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

And didn't Otto only become Hand after the death of Baelon in 101 AC? If so, Viserys and Aemma had already been wed almost a decade by that point, and Rhaenyra was already a few years old.

Indeed. I don't know, Alicent isn't really a part of the conversation at all at the time of the Viserys-Aemma marriage. When you look at the other prospects, and if you figure part-Targaryen mattered, it really seemed like the only thing to do.

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